IRC log of css on 2013-03-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:33:20 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #css
15:33:20 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/03/20-css-irc
15:33:24 [glazou]: Zakim, this will be Style
15:33:32 [Zakim]: ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 27 minutes
15:33:33 [glazou]: RRSAgent, make logs public
15:52:02 [glenn]: glenn has joined #css
15:55:46 [Zakim]: Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:55:53 [Zakim]: + +1.858.354.aaaa
15:56:32 [plinss]: zakim, aaaa is me
15:56:32 [Zakim]: +plinss; got it
15:57:13 [Zakim]: +??P10
15:57:21 [glazou]: Zakim, ??P10 is me
15:57:22 [Zakim]: +glazou; got it
15:57:23 [Zakim]: +rhauck
15:57:34 [krit]: krit has joined #css
15:57:51 [krit]: Zakim, who is on the phone
15:57:51 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'who is on the phone', krit
15:57:53 [dael]: dael has joined #css
15:57:58 [krit]: Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:57:58 [Zakim]: On the phone I see plinss, glazou, rhauck
15:58:08 [glazou]: ah!
15:58:09 [krit]: Zakim, rhauck is me
15:58:10 [oyvind]: oyvind has joined #css
15:58:10 [Zakim]: +krit; got it
15:58:26 [SimonSapin]: SimonSapin has joined #css
15:59:02 [smfr]: smfr has joined #css
15:59:05 [Zakim]: +djackson
15:59:23 [leif]: leif has joined #css
15:59:44 [Zakim]: +glenn
15:59:54 [Zakim]: + +1.619.846.aabb
15:59:55 [nvdbleek2]: nvdbleek2 has joined #css
16:00:00 [nvdbleek2]: zakim, code?
16:00:00 [Zakim]: the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), nvdbleek2
16:00:10 [Zakim]: +antonp
16:00:13 [Zakim]: +smfr
16:00:14 [plinss]: zakim, aabb is hober
16:00:14 [Zakim]: +hober; got it
16:00:19 [Zakim]: +fantasai
16:00:31 [Zakim]: +Stearns
16:00:48 [Zakim]: +nvdbleek
16:01:16 [tantek]: tantek has joined #css
16:01:26 [glazou]: ok leif
16:02:09 [Zakim]: +Bert
16:02:15 [Zakim]: +SimonSapin
16:02:18 [plh]: plh has joined #css
16:02:57 [Zakim]: +Plh
16:02:59 [rhauck]: rhauck has joined #css
16:03:16 [SimonSapin]: oh, we can have Zakim call us?
16:03:34 [plinss]: I think that's just for w3c staff
16:03:37 [tantek]: tantek has joined #css
16:03:41 [smfr]: smfr has changed the topic to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Mar/0336.html
16:04:09 [Zakim]: +??P35
16:04:29 [nvdbleek2]: zakim, mute me
16:04:29 [Zakim]: nvdbleek should now be muted
16:04:47 [cabanier]: cabanier has joined #css
16:05:19 [arronei]: regrets, only on IRC today
16:05:28 [antonp]: ScribeNick: antonp
16:05:41 [antonp]: TOPIC: additions to agenda
16:05:50 [antonp]: plinss: no additions
16:06:00 [Zakim]: + +1.832.797.aacc
16:06:02 [antonp]: TOPIC: Viewport units in paged media
16:06:20 [antonp]: SimonSapin: complicated, no solution yet
16:06:22 [TabAtkins__]: TabAtkins__ has joined #css
16:06:51 [antonp]: ... make undefined in values, noting that it's expected to be defined in css3-page
16:06:58 [antonp]: s/values/css3-values/
16:07:14 [antonp]: TabAtkins_: ok
16:07:18 [Zakim]: - +1.832.797.aacc
16:07:19 [glazou]: glazou, ok
16:07:27 [lmclister]: lmclister has joined #css
16:07:52 [Zakim]: + +1.832.797.aadd
16:07:56 [koji]: koji has joined #css
16:07:59 [antonp]: fantasai: are we making both ?? and ?? undefined?
16:08:02 [antonp]: SimonSapin: both
16:08:04 [TabAtkins__]: zakim, aadd is me
16:08:04 [Zakim]: +TabAtkins__; got it
16:08:07 [Zakim]: +Tantek
16:08:15 [tantek]: zakim, mute tantek
16:08:15 [Zakim]: Tantek should now be muted
16:08:24 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
16:08:30 [koji]: zakim, [ipcaller] is me
16:08:30 [Zakim]: +koji; got it
16:08:32 [Zakim]: +[Apple]
16:08:34 [Zakim]: -hober
16:08:36 [hober]: Zakim, Apple is me
16:08:36 [Zakim]: +hober; got it
16:08:49 [fantasai]: s/?? and ??/viewport units used in the document and viewport units used on @page/
16:09:26 [antonp]: fantasai: if we'll figure it out in the next couple of weeks, shouldn't we wait?
16:09:56 [antonp]: plinss: How about: instead of saying they're undefined in values, say explicitly that they /will/ be defined in css3-page
16:10:25 [antonp]: fantasai: how about: it's defined one way if you support css21 page stuff, otherwise ??
16:10:48 [antonp]: SimonSapin: uncomfortable with values saying it's based on the first page; not sure that will be true
16:10:56 [antonp]: TabAtkins__: I agree
16:11:29 [antonp]: plinss: <wants to avoid confusion>
16:11:53 [antonp]: ??: By undefined, remove definition or explicitly state it as undefined
16:12:04 [antonp]: TabAtkins__: both
16:12:11 [plinss]: s/??/rossen/
16:12:39 [Zakim]: +Lea
16:12:45 [antonp]: SimonSapin: new values module will state that viewport units are based on ICB in continuous media, and undefined in css3-page
16:13:47 [antonp]: RESOLVED: <SimonSapin types it below>
16:14:04 [BradK]: BradK has joined #CSS
16:14:38 [SimonSapin]: RESOLVED: css3-values to say: viewport units in continuous media are based on the ICB, in paged media undefined (expected to be defined in css3-page)
16:14:45 [Rossen]: Rossen has joined #css
16:14:56 [antonp]: TOPIC: Update form PLH on IETF liaison
16:15:09 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
16:15:09 [antonp]: plh: no update yet
16:15:10 [Zakim]: -??P35
16:15:22 [Rossen]: zakim, microsoft has me
16:15:22 [Zakim]: +Rossen; got it
16:15:30 [antonp]: TOPIC: Renaming :matches()
16:15:34 [tantek]: sounds reasonable
16:15:50 [smfr]: url?
16:15:51 [antonp]: TabAtkins__: original name was 'any()'; we changed it for various reasons
16:16:03 [smfr]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Mar/0275.html
16:16:12 [antonp]: Brian K pointed out that if we want to extend matches, the name doesn't fit in well with that
16:16:30 [antonp]: ...I agree with his argument, and I liked 'any'
16:16:30 [fantasai]: s/matches/matches and not to express logical combinators/
16:16:51 [Zakim]: +SteveZ
16:16:56 [antonp]: SimonSapin: I like 'any'
16:17:01 [tantek]: or any-of
16:17:08 [antonp]: ... but what were the reasons for changing
16:17:14 [fantasai]: It doesn't make much sense if there is only one argument.
16:17:20 [jdovey]: jdovey has joined #css
16:17:25 [antonp]: TabAtkins__: it'll take too long to elaborate!
16:17:46 [Bert]: (I don't understand any(), it's whether an element has a certain descendamnt, isnt it? so matches() is fine, or has() )
16:17:49 [Zakim]: +BradK
16:18:00 [SteveZ]: SteveZ has joined #css
16:18:06 [antonp]: fantasai: originally the opposite of 'not' which only takes one argument
16:18:09 [Zakim]: + +1.905.607.aaee
16:18:37 [jdovey]: zakim, aaee is me
16:18:37 [Zakim]: +jdovey; got it
16:18:41 [antonp]: fantasai gives examples
16:19:48 [antonp]: fantasai: I think any doesn't make sense when there's only one argument inside it, whereas matches does.
16:20:07 [antonp]: TabAtkins__: I'm comfortable with that argument
16:20:13 [antonp]: SimonSapin: I agree with that argument too
16:20:29 [antonp]: TabAtkins__: common case will be multi-argument, so not sure of relevance tho
16:20:44 [antonp]: glazou: lots of docs on the web already describes 'matches'
16:21:00 [antonp]: ... I don't think 'any' is best choice, even though 'matches' isn't perfect
16:21:03 [tantek]: but aren't there more documents that actually use :any(-of) ?
16:21:07 [tantek]: documents trump documentation right?
16:21:09 [antonp]: TabAtkins__: doc exists for 'any' as well though
16:21:34 [tantek]: seems like an easy opportunity to agree with web authors
16:21:39 [antonp]: glazou: matches with a group of selectors means you match against any of the selectors
16:21:58 [tantek]: if we can go either way (can live with), then why not go with what web developers are asking for?
16:22:01 [tantek]: (which seems to be :any)
16:22:07 [antonp]: ... so don't think that 'any' gains us something semantic that was missing
16:22:40 [glazou]: tantek, speak up!
16:22:42 [tantek]: zakim, unmute tantek
16:22:42 [Zakim]: Tantek should no longer be muted
16:23:25 [antonp]: tantek: people don't have strong opinions. Web Devs lean towards 'any' or 'any-of'(?). Let's listen to that feedback since we are on the fence
16:23:38 [Bert]: So selector1:matches(selector2) is an element that matches both selector1 and selector2? Then it is maybe an :and()...
16:24:09 [leaverou]: Bert: the most common case is when you have multiple arguments and it works as OR
16:24:16 [antonp]: fantasai: if we present it to the webdev community, we should use the single-argument case as an example
16:24:39 [antonp]: tantek: we should indicate the two leading options: any, and any-of
16:25:02 [antonp]: fantasai: I'll send an e-mail
16:25:06 [Bert]: A:matches(B, C) = an element that matches (A and B) or (A and C). Hmm, that is not an easy logical primitive...
16:25:08 [antonp]: tantek: and we can reassess next week
16:25:18 [tantek]: zakim, mute tantek
16:25:18 [Zakim]: Tantek should now be muted
16:25:39 [antonp]: TOPIC: Reissue css3-values CR?
16:25:39 [leaverou]: Bert: more like A && (B || C)
16:26:08 [antonp]: TabAtkins__: Editors are not aware of any new issues beyond the one that someone brought up today; let us know very soon if there are any!
16:26:25 [fantasai]: Bert: It's A:matches(S) where S is a selector
16:26:28 [antonp]: TOPIC: css-text-decorations to CR?
16:26:29 [SimonSapin]: Bert, the comma is OR, joining simple selectors without whitespace or separator is AND, :matches is just grouping
16:26:43 [fantasai]: Bert: Similarly a:not(S)
16:26:47 [Bert]: A:matches(B, C) == A:matches(B), A:matches(C)
16:26:52 [fantasai]: Bert: The comma is part of the selector
16:26:59 [fantasai]: Bert: it means whatever it usually means
16:27:47 [antonp]: fantasai: i18n had things they wanted to discuss; wait to see if they're ok. They had no call last week
16:27:53 [antonp]: TabAtkins__: So wait for their approval?
16:28:14 [antonp]: fantasai: yeah, or else go to CR and tweak it based on their feedback - given that the call takes a month to schedule it seems ;-)
16:28:20 [glazou]: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-text-decor-3/issues-lc-2013
16:28:29 [antonp]: Bert: I couldn't find the document; link led to 404
16:28:46 [antonp]: <confusion about URLs>
16:28:57 [antonp]: fantasai: dbaron has an issue he wanted to talk about
16:29:01 [antonp]: glazou: Issue 6?
16:29:06 [antonp]: TabAtkins__: wait for i18n and dbaron
16:29:19 [antonp]: TOPIC: Shadow DOM
16:29:41 [antonp]: glazou: spec starts being used by lots of other specs in and out of our WG, as a way to specify widgets etc
16:30:05 [glazou]: @host + CSS bits
16:30:20 [antonp]: glazou: we need to evaluate that stuff
16:30:38 [antonp]: ..: TabAtkins__ what is ETA, implementation report, rec track etc
16:30:50 [antonp]: TabAtkins__: I'm directly involved but not necessarily the right person
16:31:06 [antonp]: ...: I e-mailed the WG last Nov about shadow dom
16:31:27 [Zakim]: -glenn
16:31:36 [glazou]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Mar/0283.html
16:31:52 [antonp]: ... first: the @host rule. Stylesheets inside a web component inside shadow dom are scoped to that shadow dom; can think about it as a separate context
16:32:07 [antonp]: Stylesheets inside and outside cannot cross the boundary
16:32:08 [Zakim]: +glenn
16:32:18 [antonp]: ... C1ommon to want
16:32:36 [antonp]: .. to style the shadow dom differently in certain situation
16:32:43 [antonp]: @host allows to relax constraint
16:32:46 [smfr]: smfr has joined #css
16:33:11 [glazou]: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/shadow/index.html#host-at-rule
16:33:16 [antonp]: ... we were considering @global which takes a scoped stylesheet and relaxes it
16:33:47 [antonp]: ... shadow dom allows you take elements from the DOM and distribute them ??
16:34:01 [antonp]: < TabAtkins__ gives example >
16:34:43 [antonp]: ... we introduced a ::distributed pseudo-element ... distributed to a distribution point ...
16:35:01 [SimonSapin]: ACTION on me: ask about @host grammar: ruleset vs. declarations https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/shadow/index.html#host-at-rule
16:35:01 [trackbot]: Error finding 'on'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/users>.
16:35:11 [SimonSapin]: ACTION me: ask about @host grammar: ruleset vs. declarations https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/shadow/index.html#host-at-rule
16:35:11 [trackbot]: Error finding 'me'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/users>.
16:35:18 [SimonSapin]: ACTION SimonSapin: ask about @host grammar: ruleset vs. declarations https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/shadow/index.html#host-at-rule
16:35:19 [trackbot]: Error finding 'SimonSapin'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/users>.
16:35:27 [SimonSapin]: oh well
16:35:29 [antonp]: ... we added ::shadow which works in the opposite way from ::distributed
16:35:40 [fantasai]: ACTION Sapin: ask about @host grammar: ruleset vs. declarations
16:35:40 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-550 - Ask about @host grammar: ruleset vs. declarations [on Simon Sapin - due 2013-03-27].
16:35:54 [SimonSapin]: thanks fantasai
16:35:57 [antonp]: glazou: your pseudo-element makes sense, similar to ?? in Mozilla
16:36:31 [antonp]: .. @host selects element in shadow host, but you cannot write a rule whose selectors are matching elements in the shadow host and shadow dom?
16:36:35 [antonp]: TabAtkins__: yes you can
16:36:48 [antonp]: glazou: ok, that's more powerful than the Mozilla pseudo
16:36:51 [glazou]: s/??/-moz-bound-element
16:37:10 [antonp]: glazou: the whole thing makes sense now! Much better
16:37:35 [antonp]: glazou: Should these bits remain in that doc, or should that shadow-dom be joint work between webapps and us?
16:37:44 [antonp]: TabAtkins__: it's unofficially joint already
16:37:56 [antonp]: ...: I don't mind either way
16:37:56 [plh]: q+
16:38:31 [antonp]: glazou: Members: is it ok to invest time in this in the group, if it's not in the charter?
16:38:34 [plinss]: ack next
16:39:03 [antonp]: plh: The good thing about one single spec is that it's easier to assimilate
16:39:19 [antonp]: plh: will be a joint effort between webapps, us and HTML
16:39:28 [antonp]: TabAtkins__: doing it joint won't be a big effort
16:40:05 [antonp]: TabAtkins__: I'm not currently acting as an informal co-editor
16:40:22 [glenn]: glenn: maybe we could propose a co-editor from CSSWG to contribute (eyeballs, etc)
16:40:27 [antonp]: glazou: Would dimitri be prepared to join our WG for purposes of formally making the spec joint?
16:40:53 [antonp]: plh: Best to use TabAtkins__ ?
16:40:59 [antonp]: glazou: OK
16:41:20 [antonp]: glazou: @host with new pseudo relies on the fact that in the new grammar the pseudo doesn't need to be in last position
16:41:27 [antonp]: TabAtkins__: actually, no. Not relevant
16:41:33 [antonp]: ...: do you have an example?
16:41:42 [plh]: q+
16:42:09 [antonp]: ??: boundary of light and dark CSS; if the light css defines a ?? style, can the dark css refer to it?
16:42:13 [antonp]: TabAtkins__: yes
16:42:37 [glazou]: s/??/stearns
16:42:40 [antonp]: SimonSapin: scope is only about selectors?
16:42:42 [antonp]: TabAtkins__: yes
16:42:44 [glazou]: ack plh
16:42:46 [glazou]: q+
16:43:03 [glazou]: q-
16:43:07 [stearns]: s/?? style/counter style/
16:43:10 [antonp]: plh: link to that draft from css4-selectors draft? Should all selectors be listed in one doc?
16:43:25 [antonp]: TabAtkins__: I think it's reasonable to have a link. c.f. values and units
16:43:42 [antonp]: TabAtkins__: plh, glazou : all agree
16:44:28 [antonp]: ACTION: TabAtkins__ to ping the WG whenever Dimitri finishes the edits related to CSS
16:44:28 [trackbot]: Error finding 'TabAtkins__'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/users>.
16:44:45 [SimonSapin]: so, should Selectors 4 also link to css4-pseudos, css3-ui, and anything that adds selectors?
16:44:57 [antonp]: ??: select a custom component based on a media query?
16:45:04 [fantasai]: SimonSapin, informatively, probably would be a good idea
16:45:13 [fantasai]: s/??/Alan
16:45:21 [SimonSapin]: fantasai, yes, informatively
16:45:21 [antonp]: TabAtkins__: we don't have anything for that. Can do it right now using JS version of the API. There's nothing declarative right now
16:45:30 [glazou]: fantasai, SimonSapin : agreed
16:45:54 [antonp]: Alan: in the compoonent itself, the dark css could have a mq ...
16:46:20 [antonp]: <Alan and TabAtkins__ discuss>
16:46:46 [antonp]: glazou: @host - contains only style rules right now. Why not nested @-rules?
16:47:05 [antonp]: TabAtkins__: spec currently has old version of @host. Only allows compound selectors
16:47:22 [antonp]: ...: grammar production will be similar to stuff defined in conditionals, will allow arbitrary nesting
16:47:39 [antonp]: TOPIC: Grid Layout
16:47:52 [antonp]: plinss: publish WD?
16:48:30 [antonp]: TabAtkins__: we've switched over grid positioning properties into line-based properties. We think it's complete enough to be a WD
16:48:43 [stearns]: +1 to publish
16:48:45 [antonp]: fantasai: to avoid confusion, let's go through a couple of the issues
16:49:02 [fantasai]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Mar/0182.html
16:49:06 [fantasai]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Mar/0184.html
16:49:41 [antonp]: <TabAtkins__ explains the issue - see pasted URL>
16:50:11 [antonp]: <TabAtkins__ describes potentially confusing syntax>
16:50:17 [Zakim]: -SimonSapin
16:50:31 [antonp]: glazou: I like the proposal
16:50:38 [SteveZ]: +1
16:50:39 [antonp]: TabAtkins__: matches programming languages such as Python
16:50:52 [fantasai]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Mar/0266.html
16:50:53 [antonp]: plinss: -1 means last line?
16:50:56 [antonp]: TabAtkins__: correct.
16:50:59 [Zakim]: +SimonSapin
16:51:01 [fantasai]: (this is issues 1 / 2 in that list)
16:51:12 [antonp]: Bert: what happened to ??-area property?
16:51:17 [antonp]: TabAtkins__: it's still there
16:51:37 [antonp]: plinss: still some discrepancy about conflating line names and area names, but I see that's flagged as an issue
16:51:50 [Bert]: s/??-area/grid-area/
16:52:14 [antonp]: fantasai: Can we deal with ordering issue?
16:52:39 [Zakim]: -krit
16:52:46 [antonp]: plinss: [...]
16:52:57 [antonp]: TabAtkins__: it may still affect z-index, but otherwise yes.
16:53:17 [antonp]: RESOLVED:
16:53:31 [antonp]: Have order affect auto-placement and z-index in grid, just as it does in flexbox]
16:53:59 [antonp]: RESOLVED:
16:54:21 [TabAtkins__]: RESOLVED: line numbers always count from the before/start edge, negative numbers count from the end/after edge.
16:54:45 [antonp]: TabAtkins__: I wanted to point people to the abspos section of the spec; it looked like it was easy to get abspos to be useful
16:54:50 [antonp]: ...: please review
16:55:38 [antonp]: plinss: what about left/right/top/bottom?
16:55:46 [antonp]: TabAtkins__: they respond to the containing block
16:56:37 [antonp]: rossen: Can we have a week to go through issues and give feedback?
16:56:43 [antonp]: TabAtkins__, plinss : that's fine
16:56:54 [antonp]: TOPIC: Flexbox Issues
16:57:02 [glazou]: FWIW, I have now a basic layout editor based on the most recent flexbox spec
16:57:19 [antonp]: TabAtkins__: Are Rossen et al happy with the changes we made to address Rossen's issue?
16:57:23 [fantasai]: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-flexbox/issues-cr-2012
16:57:24 [leif]: leif has left #css
16:57:28 [glazou]: http://lockerz.com/s/287452841
16:57:30 [antonp]: TabAtkins__: about stretching elements
16:57:30 [fantasai]: issue 8
16:57:39 [fantasai]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Oct/0781.html
16:57:45 [fantasai]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Dec/0040.html
16:58:04 [fantasai]: nm
16:58:05 [fantasai]: 12
16:58:12 [fantasai]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Dec/0251.html
16:58:19 [fantasai]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Mar/0260.html
16:58:55 [antonp]: TabAtkins__: orthogonal flow issue: resolve it in a similar way to multicol, to get good behaviour. Current spec is terrible
16:59:41 [antonp]: fantasai: please review, everyone!
17:00:01 [antonp]: fantasai: Defining intrinsic sizing on flexbox made a lot of issues fall out correctly
17:00:09 [fantasai]: fantasai: we had missed defining intrinsic sizing of flex containers; now that that's defined, we think the spec works for these cases.
17:00:44 [Zakim]: -glenn
17:00:49 [Zakim]: -Plh
17:00:49 [antonp]: plinss: Bye everyone
17:00:50 [Zakim]: -Tantek
17:00:50 [Zakim]: -[Microsoft]
17:00:51 [Zakim]: -Stearns
17:00:51 [Zakim]: -hober
17:00:53 [Zakim]: -smfr
17:00:53 [Zakim]: -nvdbleek
17:00:53 [Zakim]: -BradK
17:00:53 [Zakim]: -SteveZ
17:00:53 [Zakim]: -djackson
17:00:54 [Zakim]: -jdovey
17:00:54 [Zakim]: -plinss
17:00:54 [dael]: dael has left #css
17:00:56 [Zakim]: -SimonSapin
17:00:57 [Zakim]: -fantasai
17:00:57 [Zakim]: -glazou
17:00:58 [jdovey]: jdovey has left #css
17:00:59 [Zakim]: -koji
17:00:59 [Zakim]: -antonp
17:01:03 [BradK]: BradK has left #css
17:01:13 [Zakim]: -TabAtkins__
17:01:16 [Zakim]: -Bert
17:01:25 [Zakim]: -Lea
17:01:25 [Zakim]: Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:01:25 [Zakim]: Attendees were +1.858.354.aaaa, plinss, glazou, krit, djackson, glenn, +1.619.846.aabb, antonp, smfr, hober, fantasai, Stearns, nvdbleek, Bert, SimonSapin, Plh, +1.832.797.aacc,
17:01:25 [Zakim]: ... +1.832.797.aadd, TabAtkins__, Tantek, koji, Lea, Rossen, SteveZ, BradK, +1.905.607.aaee, jdovey
17:01:30 [smfr]: smfr has left #css
17:01:35 [glazou]: thanks for shadow dom explanations, TabAtkins_
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17:04:22 [glazou]: florian, a bit late
17:06:21 [fantasai]: RRSAgent: pointer
17:06:21 [RRSAgent]: See http://www.w3.org/2013/03/20-css-irc#T17-06-21
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17:06:47 [fantasai]: djackson: http://www.w3.org/2013/03/20-css-irc.txt
17:06:58 [glazou]: florian, conf call just *ended*
17:07:02 [glazou]: DST time in US...
17:07:17 [Bert]: Zakim is in Boston, only knows the Boston clock :-)
17:07:25 [glazou]: poor Zakim
17:07:38 [florian]: Peter's mail said 6pm paris time
17:07:53 [fantasai]: djackson: https://etherpad.mozilla.org/0SVZi6YYsY
17:07:58 [glazou]: florian, argl
17:08:05 [glazou]: copy paste error
17:08:11 [glazou]: the real agenda in www-style says 5pm...
17:08:19 [florian]: grrrr
17:08:28 [florian]: Checked the wrong mail
17:08:32 [glazou]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Mar/0336.html
17:08:34 [glazou]: yep
17:08:38 [fantasai]: djackson: "\d\d:\d\d:\d\d " replace with nothing
17:08:53 [florian]: And I did check specifically, since I wondered if we were still in DST mismatch time
17:09:22 [glazou]: I think we make the move this coming week-end, not sure
17:09:40 [florian]: Oh well, more time for dinner then
17:09:44 [glazou]: eh
17:10:05 [florian]: Sorry for failling to show up
17:10:08 [glazou]: np
17:10:49 [Bert]: Next week we're still one hour off. In April it's at 6 again.
17:10:50 [SimonSapin]: glazou, florian, next week is also at 17:00
17:10:52 [fantasai]: djackson:
17:10:54 [fantasai]: djackson: http://collabedit.com/mptt2
17:10:58 [glazou]: SimonSapin, sigh
17:10:59 [glazou]: ok
17:11:13 [SimonSapin]: lightning (calendar) gets this right
17:11:24 [florian]: Good to know, thanks
17:11:29 [SimonSapin]: (each event can have its own timezone)
17:11:52 [florian]: Which time zone should be the base for this one? PST?
17:11:56 [SimonSapin]: boston
17:12:15 [SimonSapin]: aka America/New York
17:13:01 [SimonSapin]: America/New_York in the tz database
17:13:43 [liam]: or Canada/Toronto if you prefer :-)
17:15:41 [SimonSapin]: dbaron would know the exact answer :)
17:16:07 [glazou]: lol
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17:21:20 [fantasai]: djackson: http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/
17:56:54 [fantasai]: djackson: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/
17:57:16 [fantasai]: djackson: http://www.w3.org/blog/CSS/2013/03/15/resolutions-84/
17:58:11 [fantasai]: djackson: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Mar/0355.html
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18:05:09 [fantasai]: djackson: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0474.html
18:05:16 [fantasai]: djackson: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0472.html
18:05:22 [fantasai]: djackson: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0471.html
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20:18:09 [pjrm]: Are there any public implementations of css-print ?
20:19:30 [pjrm]: The recently updated CSS print profile requires behaviour that conflicts with css3-page in treatment of the 'pages' counter.
20:20:04 [pjrm]: I was wondering what the compatibility issues are and what a good solution would be.
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20:34:51 [SimonSapin]: pjrm: how is it conflicting?
20:36:10 [SimonSapin]: pjrm: AFAIK some printers are based on css-print
20:36:37 [pjrm]: css-print requires that a counter named 'pages' be modifiable, whereas css3-page requires that it not be modifiable.
20:37:02 [pjrm]: The css-print requirement was introduced before either 'page' or 'pages' had special meaning in css3-page.
20:39:16 [SimonSapin]: I don’t know how much of an issue this is
20:39:27 [SimonSapin]: fantasai?
20:39:39 [pjrm]: It just means that a css3-page implementation can't be used as a conforming css-print driver.
20:40:26 [pjrm]: Which seems unfortunate.
20:41:17 [SimonSapin]: I don’t know if anyone really cares about css-print nowadays
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20:42:12 [pjrm]: I was getting that impression from the way fantasai announced the updated css-print document, which was once a CR but now a note.
20:42:51 [SimonSapin]: is was updated recently to fix references and make it a note but I don’t think anyone wants to work on it, at least
20:43:52 [SimonSapin]: still, if fantasai doesn’t answer here feel free to bring it up on www-style
20:55:03 [pjrm]: Re vw/vh units: one approach would be to delay to give glazou a chance to develop css-page-4, which he intends to be closer to what browsers would support, and see what definition makes sense in that context. The intent would be to avoid having the definition of vw/vh change between near-future css3-page and css-page-4, if that does work out.
20:56:14 [pjrm]: It depends how pressing the use cases for vw/vh in print are, or what needs to be done to meet those use cases.
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21:10:42 [SimonSapin]: I think glazou wants to focus and headers, footers, footnotes, etc. I don’t think css4-page will change much, if anything, regarding the page size or viewport units
21:13:39 [SimonSapin]: Honestly I don’t think that viewport units have great use cases in paged media, especially if @page size is not 'auto'. But both features separately do have use cases, so we need to define how they interact. It would be silly to just supporting vw when switching from screen to print in the same browser
21:14:23 [SimonSapin]: to just stop* supporting
21:19:44 [pjrm]: he may well use some different "container" for those headers & footers, e.g. using something from css3-regions or css3-page-template/, and there might be existing rules about what vw would mean in the context of one of those containers.
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