IRC log of html-media on 2013-03-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:48:20 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #html-media
14:48:20 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/03/19-html-media-irc
14:48:22 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs public
14:48:22 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #html-media
14:48:24 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be 63342
14:48:24 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes
14:48:25 [trackbot]: Meeting: HTML Media Task Force Teleconference
14:48:25 [trackbot]: Date: 19 March 2013
14:50:13 [nsm]: nsm has joined #html-media
14:50:54 [paulc]: Good morning, Adrian (evening in Beijing)
14:52:22 [paulc]: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2013Mar/0046.html
14:53:20 [StefanKaiser]: StefanKaiser has joined #html-media
14:53:22 [Zakim]: HTML_WG()11:00AM has now started
14:53:29 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
14:53:41 [stevep]: stevep has joined #html-media
14:53:53 [StefanKaiser]: StefanKaiser has left #html-media
14:53:55 [Zakim]: + +1.650.485.aaaa
14:54:39 [paulc]: zakim, who is on the phone?
14:54:39 [Zakim]: On the phone I see [Microsoft], +1.650.485.aaaa
14:55:07 [guy]: guy has joined #html-media
14:55:11 [paulc]: zakim, [Microsoft] has paulc
14:55:11 [Zakim]: +paulc; got it
14:55:22 [paulc]: zakim, who is on the phone?
14:55:22 [Zakim]: On the phone I see [Microsoft], +1.650.485.aaaa
14:55:23 [Zakim]: [Microsoft] has paulc
14:56:09 [SimonW]: SimonW has joined #html-media
14:56:54 [Zakim]: + +31.20.460.aabb
14:57:19 [jon]: jon has joined #html-media
14:57:29 [Zakim]: + +44.178.442.aacc
14:57:36 [Steve_Morris]: Steve_Morris has joined #html-media
14:57:53 [Zakim]: + +44.175.349.aadd
14:58:03 [SimonW]: zakim, list
14:58:03 [Zakim]: I see HTML_WG()11:00AM, WAI_UAWG(CHAIRS)10:30AM, TAG_f2f()8:00AM, IA_Team()10:00AM, Team_(mediaann)15:00Z active
14:58:05 [Zakim]: also scheduled at this time are SW_RIF()11:00AM, SW_SWSTR()9:00AM, WS_SOAP-JM()10:00AM, Team_Validat()11:00AM, RWC_WebEven()11:00AM, RWC_PEWG()11:00AM, WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM,
14:58:05 [Zakim]: ... Team_(digpub)15:00Z, XML_(TAG TF)10:00AM, SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM, SW_HCLS()11:00AM, XML_ET-TF()11:00AM, VB_VBWG()10:00AM, MWI_BPWG()9:30AM, T&S_XMLSEC()10:00AM
14:58:18 [Zakim]: + +44.173.776.aaee
14:58:48 [markw]: markw has joined #html-media
14:58:52 [pal]: pal has joined #html-media
14:59:11 [Zakim]: + +44.122.365.aaff
14:59:23 [Zakim]: + +1.831.457.aagg
14:59:37 [Zakim]: + +1.310.210.aahh
14:59:40 [Zakim]: +??P22
14:59:53 [pal]: zakim, i am aahh
14:59:53 [Zakim]: +pal; got it
14:59:57 [Zakim]: +markw_
15:00:03 [Michael_Thornburgh]: Michael_Thornburgh has joined #html-media
15:00:03 [SimonW]: zakim, aacc is me
15:00:03 [Zakim]: +SimonW; got it
15:00:10 [markw]: Zakim, markw_ is me
15:00:10 [Zakim]: +markw; got it
15:00:14 [stuartjs]: stuartjs has joined #html-media
15:00:14 [skaiser]: skaiser has joined #html-media
15:00:24 [Steve_Morris]: zakim, aaff is me
15:00:24 [David_Corvoysier]: David_Corvoysier has joined #html-media
15:00:24 [Zakim]: +Steve_Morris; got it
15:00:26 [stevep]: zakim, aaee is me
15:00:26 [Zakim]: +stevep; got it
15:00:35 [Zakim]: +??P30
15:00:42 [Zakim]: +Cecile_Marc
15:00:50 [SimonW]: zakim, list attendees
15:00:50 [Zakim]: As of this point the attendees have been +1.650.485.aaaa, paulc, +31.20.460.aabb, +44.178.442.aacc, +44.175.349.aadd, +44.173.776.aaee, +44.122.365.aaff, +1.831.457.aagg,
15:00:53 [Zakim]: ... +1.310.210.aahh, pal, SimonW, markw, Steve_Morris, stevep, Cecile_Marc
15:00:54 [johnsim]: johnsim has joined #html-media
15:01:08 [David_Corvoysier]: zakim, Cecile_Marc is me
15:01:08 [Zakim]: +David_Corvoysier; got it
15:01:20 [paulc]: zakim, who is on hte phone?
15:01:20 [Zakim]: I don't understand your question, paulc.
15:01:30 [jon]: zakim aabb is me
15:01:30 [paulc]: zakim, who is on the phone?
15:01:30 [Zakim]: On the phone I see [Microsoft], +1.650.485.aaaa, +31.20.460.aabb, SimonW, +44.175.349.aadd, stevep, Steve_Morris, +1.831.457.aagg, pal, ??P22, markw, ??P30, David_Corvoysier
15:01:34 [Zakim]: [Microsoft] has paulc
15:01:43 [Michael_Thornburgh]: Zakim, aagg is me
15:01:43 [Zakim]: +Michael_Thornburgh; got it
15:02:03 [Zakim]: + +49.303.aaii
15:02:10 [jon]: zakim, aabb is me
15:02:10 [Zakim]: +jon; got it
15:02:14 [ddorwin]: ddorwin has joined #html-media
15:02:14 [paulc]: zakim, aabb is jon
15:02:14 [Zakim]: sorry, paulc, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb'
15:02:25 [nsm]: zakim, list
15:02:25 [Zakim]: I see HTML_WG()11:00AM, WAI_UAWG(CHAIRS)10:30AM, XML_ET-TF()11:00AM, Team_Validat()11:00AM, TAG_f2f()8:00AM, IA_Team()10:00AM, Team_(mediaann)15:00Z active
15:02:28 [Zakim]: also scheduled at this time are SW_RIF()11:00AM, RWC_WebEven()11:00AM, RWC_PEWG()11:00AM, WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM, Team_(digpub)15:00Z, SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM, SW_HCLS()11:00AM,
15:02:28 [Zakim]: ... VB_VBWG()10:00AM, T&S_XMLSEC()10:00AM
15:02:34 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft.a]
15:02:48 [paulc]: zakim, [aabb] is jon
15:02:48 [Zakim]: sorry, paulc, I do not recognize a party named '[aabb]'
15:03:14 [Zakim]: +ddorwin
15:03:17 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft.aa]
15:03:20 [adrianba]: zakim, [Microsoft.aa] is me
15:03:20 [Zakim]: +adrianba; got it
15:03:26 [johnsim]: zakim, i am microsoft.a
15:03:26 [Zakim]: ok, johnsim, I now associate you with [Microsoft.a]
15:03:31 [M_]: M_ has joined #html-media
15:03:53 [adrianba]: ScribeNick: adrianba
15:03:58 [acolwell]: acolwell has joined #html-media
15:04:00 [adrianba]: Scribe: Adrian Bateman
15:04:04 [adrianba]: Chair: Paul Cotton
15:04:30 [adrianba]: TOPIC: Roll call, introductions and selection of scribe
15:04:34 [adrianba]: zakim, who is on the phone?
15:04:34 [Zakim]: On the phone I see [Microsoft], +1.650.485.aaaa, jon, SimonW, +44.175.349.aadd, stevep, Steve_Morris, Michael_Thornburgh, pal, ??P22, markw, ??P30, David_Corvoysier, +49.303.aaii,
15:04:38 [Zakim]: ... [Microsoft.a], ddorwin, adrianba
15:04:38 [Zakim]: [Microsoft] has paulc
15:04:41 [Zakim]: + +33.2.23.45.aajj
15:05:03 [Zakim]: +Aaron_Colwell
15:05:09 [Zakim]: + +44.147.364.aakk
15:05:21 [Zakim]: +??P52
15:05:50 [johnsim]: zakim, who is on the phone?
15:05:50 [Zakim]: On the phone I see [Microsoft], +1.650.485.aaaa, jon, SimonW, +44.175.349.aadd, stevep, Steve_Morris, Michael_Thornburgh, pal, ??P22, markw, ??P30, David_Corvoysier, +49.303.aaii,
15:05:53 [Zakim]: ... [Microsoft.a], ddorwin, adrianba, +33.2.23.45.aajj, Aaron_Colwell, +44.147.364.aakk, ??P52
15:05:53 [Zakim]: [Microsoft] has paulc
15:06:20 [BobLund]: BobLund has joined #html-media
15:06:20 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
15:06:37 [skaiser]: zakim, [aaii] is me
15:06:37 [Zakim]: sorry, skaiser, I do not recognize a party named '[aaii]'
15:06:45 [skaiser]: zakim, aaii is me
15:06:45 [Zakim]: +skaiser; got it
15:07:13 [stephane]: stephane has joined #html-media
15:07:16 [adrianba]: paulc: this is a call of the Media Task Force of the HTML WG
15:07:30 [Zakim]: +BobLund
15:07:33 [adrianba]: ... focus on Media Source today - alternate every two weeks
15:07:37 [giuseppep]: giuseppep has joined #html-media
15:07:49 [adrianba]: ... ask for people to identify themselves
15:08:02 [adrianba]: ... objective to get through liaison questions and first bugs
15:08:10 [adrianba]: ... to give them feedback on bugs
15:08:25 [adrianba]: ... hope editors ready for that - know there have been some responses on individual bugs
15:08:44 [adrianba]: ... I'm Paul Cotton, from Microsoft, co-chair
15:10:12 [adrianba]: adrianba: Adrian Bateman, Microsoft, Internet Explorer team
15:10:46 [jbHenry]: jbHenry has joined #html-media
15:11:27 [Michael_Thornburgh]: i'm from Adobe
15:11:47 [adrianba]: [... members of the call identifying themselves]
15:12:25 [jon]: I'm Jon Piesing from TP Vision, what used to be the TV business of Philips. I'm the chair of the browser group in OIPF and of the specification group in HbbTV.
15:12:37 [Zakim]: +??P0
15:12:45 [SimonW]: Simon Waller from Samsung, I work on IP standardisation for TVs in OIPF and HbbTV
15:12:56 [Steve_Morris]: I'm Steve Morris from Espial, working in both HbbTV and OIPF
15:13:32 [giuseppep]: Giuseppe from Opera, working on Opera TV product. co-chair of the web&tv and also active in OIPF and HbbTV
15:13:44 [stevep]: Stephen Perrott from the BBC in the UK. Here as part of the OIPF and DTG guest contingent.
15:13:45 [adrianba]: paulc: that's done the introductions
15:13:47 [jbHenry]: I'm J.B. Henry, from Orange group, working with HbbTV (and also OIPF)
15:13:59 [adrianba]: TOPIC: MSE Liaison questions and new bugs
15:14:07 [stuartjs]: zakim, stuartjs is stuart savage lge , dtg, hbbtv
15:14:07 [Zakim]: I don't understand you, stuartjs
15:14:14 [acolwell]: Aaron Colwell from Google. I work on Chrome HTML5 video and I'm editor of the Media Source Extension spec.
15:14:14 [David_Corvoysier]: I'm from Orange, both attending W3C HTML WG & Web &TV IG and OIPF
15:14:22 [guy]: Guy Paskar, Peer5, Peer assisted delivery network utilizing MSE for creating the video from multiple sources.
15:14:28 [adrianba]: paulc: first topic is the question from the liaison groups
15:14:28 [stephane]: Stephane Lejeune and Alain Tholon with NDS in France working on HbbTV.
15:14:30 [adrianba]: MSE questions from Open IPTV Forum, HbbTV and the UK DTG
15:14:31 [BobLund]: Bob Lund from CableLabs working on browsers for TV, and DLNA and W3C related efforts.
15:14:32 [nsm]: Nigel Moore - Sony Europe. Working on IPTV and web standards for CE devices in DTG, OIPF and HbbTV groups.
15:14:36 [adrianba]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2013Mar/0039.html
15:14:58 [ddorwin]: David Dorwin from Google Chrome; co-editor of Encrypted Media Extensions.
15:15:13 [paulc]: Response: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2013Mar/0048.html
15:15:27 [skaiser]: Stefan Kaiser from Fraunhofer FOKUS, working on adaptive streaming / DASH applications
15:15:30 [adrianba]: paulc: Q1. Are there plans for test cases for MSE?
15:15:32 [Zakim]: -David_Corvoysier
15:15:45 [adrianba]: acolwell: i was under the impression that the process requires this
15:16:05 [adrianba]: paulc: process in W3C is specs go through series of Working Drafts
15:16:17 [jdsmith3000]: jdsmith3000 has joined #html-media
15:16:20 [adrianba]: ... First WD has been published, typically publish new WD every 3 months
15:16:28 [Zakim]: +David_Corvoysier
15:16:45 [adrianba]: ... when the WG is done, it approves going into Last Call, Last Call Working Draft, and then look for public review
15:16:59 [adrianba]: ... once all comments are processed, spec moves to Candidate Recommendation
15:17:03 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft.aa]
15:17:11 [adrianba]: ... that transition requires WG approval and approval of W3C Director
15:17:21 [adrianba]: ... at this stage there is a public call for implementations
15:17:27 [Zakim]: -[IPcaller]
15:17:37 [stephane]: stephane has left #html-media
15:17:41 [adrianba]: ... usually need test cases to show interop and that spec is clear enough for third party to implement from spec
15:17:50 [adrianba]: ... not unusual for there to be test cases before CR
15:17:56 [adrianba]: ... only at CR is mandatory
15:18:11 [adrianba]: ... is there a reason for the question?
15:18:16 [stephane_L]: stephane_L has joined #html-media
15:18:42 [adrianba]: jon: for the three organisations a test suite is important
15:18:52 [adrianba]: ... we were not that familiar with w3c practice
15:19:01 [adrianba]: ... the only immediate question is one of timescales
15:19:12 [adrianba]: ... think we're done with this question
15:19:23 [adrianba]: SimonW: i think this will be covered with schedule
15:19:35 [adrianba]: paulc: Q2. Do you believe MSE contains the features needed for a DASH player that fully supports the DASH profiles defined by MPEG and by DASH-IF? If a DASH player on top of MSE could only support a subset of these profiles, is there any information on what could not be supported?
15:20:05 [markw]: q+
15:20:44 [adrianba]: markw: for iso bmff i'm fairly sure MSE can support a DASH player
15:20:51 [adrianba]: ... haven't done this for MPEG2-TS
15:21:15 [adrianba]: acolwell: also my assessment
15:21:45 [adrianba]: BobLund: we provided bitstream definition for MPEG2-TS and this was driven by requirements for DASH support
15:21:47 [adrianba]: q+
15:22:05 [paulc]: ack markw
15:22:11 [paulc]: ack adrian
15:22:31 [giuseppep]: giuseppep has joined #html-media
15:22:55 [adrianba]: adrianba: appreciate specific bug reports if people think something is missing or broken
15:23:05 [adrianba]: Q3. Has any thought gone into how MSE could be used with a media element whose playback rate was other than 0 or 1? Particularly rates greater than 1 or less than 0.
15:23:29 [adrianba]: acolwell: two ways this could be handled
15:23:48 [adrianba]: ... this should be signaled by setting rate on media element just like the non MSE case
15:23:57 [adrianba]: ... either just append faster because media engine needs faster
15:24:15 [AlainT]: AlainT has joined #html-media
15:24:23 [Zakim]: +??P3
15:24:44 [SimonW]: q+
15:24:47 [adrianba]: ... or if you could use difference sourcebuffers for more sophisticated output (e.g. key frame) and switch tracks with html5
15:24:52 [paulc]: ack simon
15:25:11 [adrianba]: SimonW: what happens to the timelines if you switch sourcebuffer and then you switch back
15:25:30 [adrianba]: ... you want to switch into a different time
15:25:58 [adrianba]: acolwell: my assumption, if you're using a different buffer you're still using the real timeline
15:26:10 [adrianba]: ... so it's really just track selection
15:26:23 [adrianba]: ... the current playback position is just moved forward normally
15:26:37 [adrianba]: ... depending which sourcebuffer you're using you might only be decoding keyframes
15:26:50 [adrianba]: ... but they're all the same timeline
15:28:53 [adrianba_]: adrianba_ has joined #html-media
15:29:23 [jdsmith]: jdsmith has joined #html-media
15:29:32 [adrianba_]: ScribeNick: adrianba_
15:29:45 [Zakim]: -markw
15:29:48 [adrianba_]: paulc: Q4: Is there a complete description for the handling of encrypted content with an embedded DRM?
15:30:01 [adrianba_]: acolwell: this is covered by EME
15:30:11 [Zakim]: +markw
15:30:15 [adrianba_]: ... there was care taken to make sure encryption cases were handled but not called out
15:30:18 [paulc]: EME = Encrypted Media Extensions
15:30:28 [adrianba_]: ... because some people want to support MSE but not necessarily encryption
15:31:05 [adrianba_]: See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2013Mar/0048.html for example
15:31:19 [markw]: yep, that's correct
15:31:28 [jon]: q+
15:31:33 [adrianba_]: johnsim: same for ISO
15:31:40 [paulc]: ack jon
15:31:51 [adrianba_]: jon: that is the answer i was expecting
15:31:57 [adrianba_]: zakim, who is noisy?
15:32:08 [Zakim]: adrianba_, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [Microsoft] (100%), SimonW (4%), [Microsoft.a] (10%)
15:32:32 [adrianba]: ScribeNick: adrianba
15:32:47 [adrianba]: paulc: we've kept MSE and EME separate but there are people planning to implement both
15:33:13 [adrianba]: paulc: Q5. The broadcasters in our 3 organisations have a requirement to know when a particular advert starts being played and stops being played so that they can report this information back to an advertising server. It seems to us that the (only?) way to achieve this with with MSE is to remember a) where in the timeline the advert has been inserted (as defined by timestampOffset) and b) the length of the advert. As the content is played, the app wo
15:33:13 [adrianba]: uld poll the currentTime property of the media element and test if this was within an advert. Is this how you would expect this requirement to be met with MSE?
15:33:35 [adrianba]: s/wo//
15:33:42 [adrianba]: s/uld/... would/
15:33:47 [adrianba]: acolwell: this is one way to do it
15:33:57 [kai_m]: kai_m has joined #html-media
15:33:59 [adrianba]: ... i would expect to use the existing html5 text track to do this
15:34:07 [adrianba]: ... create text cues with the metadata
15:34:16 [adrianba]: ... for the start and end
15:34:28 [BobLund]: q+
15:34:32 [adrianba]: ... when the playback reaches those cues it will fire an event
15:34:37 [adrianba]: ... without the need for polling
15:34:43 [adrianba]: ... could use inband tracks for this too
15:34:53 [paulc]: ack bob
15:35:17 [adrianba]: BobLund: here at cablelabs we've implemented both approaches and would be happy to provide details to anyone interested
15:35:24 [adrianba]: paulc: thanks for the offer
15:35:50 [adrianba]: TOPIC: MSE Liaison bugs
15:36:05 [adrianba]: paulc: may have been more bugs filed - there were 5 when i created the agenda
15:36:17 [paulc]: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21298
15:36:18 [BobLund]: Contact b.lund@cablelabs.com for implementation details of using text tracks for advertisement audits
15:36:24 [adrianba]: paulc: each bug has a history in it
15:36:29 [adrianba]: Bug 21298 - making it easier for people to understand MSE
15:36:34 [adrianba]: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21298
15:37:05 [adrianba]: acolwell: the actionable piece here was about creating a diagram
15:37:14 [adrianba]: ... about how appended data flows through the system
15:37:17 [SimonW]: q+
15:37:35 [jon]: Q+
15:37:40 [adrianba]: ... open to more suggestions but this is for implementers so a lot of prose makes it difficult to keep clear what is normative
15:37:49 [adrianba]: ... could create a separate document for content owners
15:37:50 [paulc]: ack simon
15:38:05 [adrianba]: SimonW: helpful to have a high level overview for how it all works together
15:38:17 [adrianba]: ... a separate document perhaps
15:38:26 [adrianba]: ... for example implementation guidelines for apps
15:38:41 [adrianba]: paulc: not uncommon to produce a primer in W3C
15:38:48 [adrianba]: ... for example XML Schema
15:38:59 [adrianba]: ... Part 0 is the primer and read more often than the normative spec
15:39:18 [paulc]: ack jon
15:39:19 [adrianba]: ... that model or introductary material in an annexe also possible
15:40:27 [adrianba]: jon: if you want good feedback need to reduce the learning curve
15:40:49 [adrianba]: Bug 21299 - memory management in MSE
15:40:50 [paulc]: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21299
15:40:56 [adrianba]: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21299
15:41:41 [adrianba]: acolwell: this bug is around what assumptions MSE is making about how memory is managed
15:41:54 [adrianba]: ... easiest way to think about this is SourceBuffers contain trackbuffers
15:42:00 [adrianba]: ... which hold timeranges
15:42:10 [adrianba]: ... remove() allows removing ranges from the timeline
15:42:26 [adrianba]: ... only assumption is that you have these buffers of coded frames and you can remove time ranges
15:42:35 [adrianba]: ... and encoding dependencies are taken into account
15:42:47 [jon]: q+
15:42:54 [adrianba]: ... don't believe any other assumptions about algorithms or methods of storage
15:42:56 [paulc]: ack jon
15:43:09 [adrianba]: jon: this section was added after our F2F
15:43:17 [adrianba]: ... two immediate things spring to mind
15:43:24 [adrianba]: ... does the app have to call remove()
15:43:35 [adrianba]: acolwell: not required any more for remove to be called
15:43:53 [adrianba]: ... we did have this requirement for a while but went back to the original model
15:44:06 [adrianba]: ... intent is that if you don't call remove then UA will manage buffer for you
15:44:18 [adrianba]: ... and attempt to ensure playback doesn't stall
15:44:31 [adrianba]: ... if app wants different algorithm then it can use remove
15:44:43 [adrianba]: ... also heard that some apps have contractual obligations about how much can be buffered
15:44:59 [adrianba]: jon: that alleviates one concern - would apps know enough to meaningfully call remove
15:45:10 [adrianba]: ... but if use case is limit for rights reason then that's fine
15:45:40 [adrianba]: acolwell: if app happens to know something, for example if user executes a seek and knows won't need old data then app could remove
15:45:47 [adrianba]: ... this might be info UA doesn't have
15:45:59 [markw]: markw has joined #html-media
15:45:59 [adrianba]: Bug 21300 - lack of clarity around appendStream
15:46:05 [adrianba]: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21300
15:46:21 [adrianba]: acolwell: MSE spec doesn't talk about what creates Stream object
15:46:30 [adrianba]: ... MSE doesn't care but common use case is XHR
15:46:49 [adrianba]: ... XHR is XMLHttpRequest object
15:47:05 [adrianba]: ... primarily how apps that use MSE will fetch media data from the media server
15:47:13 [adrianba]: ... using JavaScript to initiate HTTP requests
15:47:32 [adrianba]: Bug 21301 - timelines in MSE and HTML5
15:47:39 [adrianba]: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21301
15:47:51 [adrianba]: acolwell: if we don't have questions, how do we close bugs?
15:47:58 [adrianba]: paulc: want to answer these at the end
15:48:24 [jon]: q+
15:48:24 [adrianba]: ... but if editors think they've answered the question, they resolve the bugs
15:48:41 [paulc]: ack jon
15:48:47 [adrianba]: jon: the other option would be for the chairs to have an offline discussion
15:49:32 [adrianba]: bug 21301
15:49:51 [adrianba]: acolwell: this was a clarification of terms - spec uses presentation timeline and timeline without being defined
15:50:05 [adrianba]: ... so resolution is to use 'media timeline' which HTML5 uses
15:50:09 [adrianba]: ... trivial change
15:50:20 [adrianba]: Bug 21302 - Support for inserting adverts as non-fragmented MP4 files
15:50:26 [adrianba]: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21302
15:50:34 [Zakim]: -Steve_Morris
15:50:55 [adrianba]: acolwell: my suggestion is not to support this but i'm not sure how to attack this bug
15:51:09 [adrianba]: ... non-fragmented files do not follow the model of everything else in the spec
15:51:27 [adrianba]: ... and while i understand current ad systems do not support fragmented files i think they will
15:51:28 [jdsmith]: q+
15:51:42 [paulc]: ack jdsmith
15:51:44 [adrianba]: ... adding this might cause legacy helpful in the short term but not the long term
15:52:05 [adrianba]: jdsmith: while it is technically possible to make this work it is definitely a problem
15:52:21 [adrianba]: ... [some of the problems listed]
15:52:32 [adrianba]: ... our position is to not spend time on this
15:52:43 [adrianba]: acolwell: seems like a business problem not a technical problem
15:52:51 [adrianba]: jdsmith: tools are available to do this processing
15:53:26 [adrianba]: jon: the reason you didn't get a response is i don't think you have the advertisers here
15:53:35 [adrianba]: ... need to get them to think about this
15:53:59 [jon]: Correction: The people who aren't here are the advertising-funded broadcasters.
15:53:59 [adrianba]: acolwell: if it's not clear already i think you'll face strong pushback on supporting non-fragmented MP4
15:54:32 [adrianba]: s/advertisers/advertising-funded broadcasters/
15:55:16 [adrianba]: Bug 21333 - consequences of requirement in section 8 on initialisation segments
15:55:20 [adrianba]: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21333
15:56:21 [Zakim]: +??P2
15:56:21 [adrianba]: jon: typical example is you might have a content item where there is one video track and the audio track is multi-channel
15:56:31 [adrianba]: ... video might be the same codec but audio is different
15:56:32 [adrianba]: q+
15:56:45 [adrianba]: ... other example is content has multiple audio tracks but ad doesn't
15:56:58 [adrianba]: ... this seemed to force us into different SourceBuffers
15:57:11 [paulc]: ack adrian
15:57:11 [acolwell]: q+
15:57:14 [adrianba]: ... what user experience would you get at the change between SourceBuffers
15:57:57 [Zakim]: -??P22
15:58:48 [Zakim]: -BobLund
15:59:31 [markw]: q+
15:59:40 [paulc]: ack ac
15:59:41 [markw]: q-
15:59:43 [adrianba]: adrianba: [summarises comments in the bug]
16:00:24 [adrianba]: acolwell: channel count can be supported in a single sourcebuffer but codec change, as adrian says, for implementation reasons you don't usually support codec changes mid-presentation, especially for hardware decoding
16:00:25 [markw]: I was going to agree this is a Media Element problem: what happens when you play a normal media file in which one audio track stops and another starts at some point in time ? Does the Media Element automatically switch tracks ?
16:00:47 [jon]: q+
16:00:49 [adrianba]: ... so using two sourcebuffers to handle this would mean there is a track change
16:00:58 [adrianba]: ... track changes are not considered seamless at this time
16:00:59 [paulc]: ack jon
16:01:30 [adrianba]: q+
16:01:36 [adrianba]: jon: this needs more discussion
16:01:52 [adrianba]: ... if an audio track disappears that would seem to require a sourcebuffer change
16:02:02 [adrianba]: ... we want something as seamless as possible
16:02:12 [adrianba]: ... for ad insertion
16:02:34 [adrianba]: acolwell: that's not because of the spec - the content you're using forces this
16:02:47 [adrianba]: ... because you're using content that can't be guaranteed to be seamless
16:02:59 [jon]: There's at least one more bug to come.
16:03:24 [adrianba]: paulc: chairs are going to have to continue our discussions
16:03:42 [adrianba]: ... ask editors to continue to close bugs as appropriate and keep discussing others
16:04:01 [adrianba]: ... liaison guests - please let us know which need more clarifications
16:04:15 [adrianba]: ... also would you like another meeting after a subsequent meeting on your side
16:05:08 [adrianba]: ... mark as NEEDSINFO or whatever is appropriate
16:05:24 [adrianba]: ... i'll work with liaison chairs to make sure process is understood
16:05:48 [adrianba]: acolwell: should some questions that are clarification be mails instead of bugs
16:06:01 [adrianba]: ... bugs are for things that need to be changed
16:06:07 [adrianba]: ... mails for discussion
16:06:30 [adrianba]: paulc: yes, if there are questions that should be answered by reading spec, can start in the list
16:06:31 [giuseppep]: can non HTML WG member give contributions to the group?
16:06:38 [giuseppep]: s/member/members/
16:07:00 [adrianba]: ... tend to encourage to use bugs when can point to specific point in the spec and have a proposal for changes
16:07:37 [adrianba]: paulc: will provide minutes to our partners
16:08:01 [adrianba]: jon: like to express thanks for time and energy put into answering questions
16:08:36 [adrianba]: TOPIC: Adjournment
16:08:44 [adrianba]: paulc: adjourned, thanks
16:08:44 [Zakim]: -jon
16:08:45 [Zakim]: -pal
16:08:48 [Zakim]: -adrianba
16:08:49 [Zakim]: -??P52
16:08:49 [Zakim]: -SimonW
16:08:50 [Zakim]: -markw
16:08:51 [Zakim]: - +44.147.364.aakk
16:08:51 [jon]: ?
16:08:52 [adrianba]: rrsagent, make minutes
16:08:52 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/03/19-html-media-minutes.html adrianba
16:08:53 [Zakim]: -Michael_Thornburgh
16:08:54 [jon]: quit
16:08:55 [Zakim]: -ddorwin
16:08:55 [Zakim]: -Aaron_Colwell
16:08:55 [Zakim]: - +44.175.349.aadd
16:08:56 [Zakim]: -stevep
16:08:56 [Zakim]: -David_Corvoysier
16:08:58 [adrianba]: rrsagent, make logs public
16:08:59 [giuseppep]: giuseppep has left #html-media
16:09:00 [Zakim]: -[Microsoft.aa]
16:09:02 [Zakim]: -??P0
16:09:05 [Zakim]: -[Microsoft]
16:09:06 [Zakim]: - +33.2.23.45.aajj
16:09:07 [Zakim]: -[Microsoft.a]
16:09:10 [Zakim]: -??P2
16:09:13 [Zakim]: -skaiser
16:09:15 [Zakim]: -??P30
16:09:21 [adrianba]: zakim, bye
16:09:21 [Zakim]: leaving. As of this point the attendees were +1.650.485.aaaa, paulc, +31.20.460.aabb, +44.178.442.aacc, +44.175.349.aadd, +44.173.776.aaee, +44.122.365.aaff, +1.831.457.aagg,
16:09:21 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #html-media
16:09:22 [stevep]: stevep has left #html-media
16:09:25 [adrianba]: rrsagent, make minutes
16:09:25 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/03/19-html-media-minutes.html adrianba
16:09:25 [Zakim]: ... +1.310.210.aahh, pal, SimonW, markw, Steve_Morris, stevep, David_Corvoysier, Michael_Thornburgh, +49.303.aaii, jon, [Microsoft], ddorwin, adrianba, +33.2.23.45.aajj,
16:09:25 [Zakim]: ... Aaron_Colwell, +44.147.364.aakk, [IPcaller], skaiser, BobLund, giuseppep
16:09:47 [adrianba]: rrsagent, make minutes
16:09:47 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/03/19-html-media-minutes.html adrianba
16:10:01 [kai_m]: kai_m has left #html-media
16:11:04 [adrianba]: Present+ pal SimonW markw Steve_Morris stevep Cecile_Marc
16:11:06 [adrianba]: rrsagent, make minutes
16:11:06 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/03/19-html-media-minutes.html adrianba
16:13:12 [adrianba]: Present+ ddorwin, jon, jdsmith, adrianba, acolwell, BobLund, Michael_Thornburgh, giuseppep, David_Corvoysier, skaiser
16:13:15 [adrianba]: rrsagent, make minutes
16:13:15 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/03/19-html-media-minutes.html adrianba
16:16:22 [acolwell]: acolwell has joined #html-media