IRC log of indie-ui on 2013-03-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

22:00:19 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #indie-ui
22:00:20 [RRSAgent]
logging to
22:00:21 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
22:00:22 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #indie-ui
22:00:23 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be INDIE
22:00:24 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot, I see WAI_Indie()5:00PM already started
22:00:25 [trackbot]
Meeting: Independent User Interface Task Force Teleconference
22:00:25 [trackbot]
Date: 06 March 2013
22:00:43 [Zakim]
22:01:25 [MichaelC]
zakim, Ipcaller is Andy_Heath
22:01:25 [Zakim]
+Andy_Heath; got it
22:01:28 [jcraig]
jcraig has joined #indie-ui
22:01:29 [MichaelC]
zakim, ??P3 is Jason_White
22:01:29 [Zakim]
+Jason_White; got it
22:01:34 [MichaelC]
zakim, ??P4 is Janina_Sajka
22:01:34 [Zakim]
+Janina_Sajka; got it
22:01:34 [janina]
Meeting: IndieUI Task Force Teleconference
22:01:34 [janina]
Chair: Janina_Sajka
22:01:34 [janina]
agenda+ Editor's Update
22:01:34 [janina]
agenda+ Upcoming Teleconference Time Shifts
22:01:34 [janina]
agenda+ Adjusting Our Fortnightly Process
22:01:37 [janina]
agenda+ Reconsidering Our User Context Process
22:01:39 [janina]
agenda+ Events Issues & Actions
22:01:42 [janina]
agenda+ User Context Issues & Actions
22:01:45 [janina]
agenda+ Scribe for our Next Teleconference (on 20 March at 22:00Z)
22:01:48 [janina]
agenda+ Be Done
22:02:23 [Zakim]
22:02:32 [MichaelC]
regrets: Rich_Simpson
22:02:36 [jcraig]
Zakim, Apple has jcraig
22:02:36 [Zakim]
+jcraig; got it
22:03:44 [MichaelC]
regrets+ Ted_O┬┤Connor
22:03:56 [MichaelC]
22:05:23 [jcraig]
scribe: jcraig
22:05:50 [jcraig]
JS: Topic: Editor Update
22:05:59 [MichaelC]
zakim, next item
22:05:59 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Editor's Update" taken up [from janina]
22:06:38 [jasonjgw]
There's an open issue regarding specs not loading properly in Chrome browsers.
22:07:49 [jasonjgw]
Branch oddities have occurred in PF hg repository and may occur if anyone pushes changes without pulling the latest revisions first.
22:08:05 [jcraig]
jc: updated specs for Chrome not loading http scripts
22:08:28 [jcraig]
jc: have not been able to update User Context spec yet
22:08:56 [jcraig]
jc: have local edits for additional actions in Events spec; hope to have those in today or tomorrow.
22:09:50 [Zakim]
22:09:55 [jcraig]
jc: Make sure, if you're pushing to the Mercurial repo, be sure to pull first, otherwise, we get weird branching problems.
22:10:09 [jcraig]
Topic: Telecon
22:11:06 [jcraig]
js: Daylight Savings Time is this weekend. Next 4 meetings (8 weeks) are at 21:00 UTC Zulu
22:12:04 [jcraig]
js: EU and OZ times will be different. US times will still be 5pm Eastern, 2pm Pacific
22:12:17 [jcraig]
22:12:55 [MichaelC]
zakim, close this item
22:12:55 [Zakim]
agendum 1 closed
22:12:56 [Zakim]
I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
22:12:56 [Zakim]
2. Upcoming Teleconference Time Shifts [from janina]
22:12:57 [MichaelC]
zakim, next item
22:12:58 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Upcoming Teleconference Time Shifts" taken up [from janina]
22:13:01 [MichaelC]
zakim, close this item
22:13:01 [Zakim]
agendum 2 closed
22:13:02 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
22:13:02 [Zakim]
3. Adjusting Our Fortnightly Process [from janina]
22:13:10 [jcraig]
js: looking to improve efficiency/productivity of the group email and telecon process
22:13:12 [MichaelC]
zakim, next item
22:13:12 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Adjusting Our Fortnightly Process" taken up [from janina]
22:14:05 [jcraig]
js: weekly telecon time is one consideration
22:14:23 [jcraig]
js: trying to avoid the flurry of activity only right before telecons
22:15:03 [jcraig]
js: will call for agenda earlier, and post a survey of topics (scribe may have missed some details here?)
22:15:18 [jcraig]
22:15:32 [janina]
ack jas
22:16:05 [jcraig]
jw: from experience, when WCAG WG ran surveys, we found it very useful, particularly with controversial items
22:16:06 [janina]
ack jc
22:17:01 [MichaelC]
22:17:17 [janina]
ack m
22:17:56 [MichaelC]
ack me
22:19:07 [jcraig]
jc: regular list contributions come with more regular edits; also think the survey and earlier agenda is a good idea.
22:19:33 [jcraig]
mc: agreed. trying to stimulate discussion of topics not necessarily tied to spec edits
22:20:02 [jcraig]
jc: such as privacy; user expectations of what to share, when, and how.
22:20:20 [jasonjgw]
James suggests that the timing of discussions (tending to occur shortly before meetings) is not caused by the bi-weekly meeting arrangements.
22:20:23 [jcraig]
mc: checking for issue on privacy; no issues exists
22:20:27 [MichaelC]
issue: Privacy in User Context
22:20:27 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-10 - Privacy in User Context; please complete additional details at <>.
22:20:31 [jasonjgw]
He agrees with the survey and agenda proposals.
22:20:42 [MichaelC]
trackbot, associate issue-10 with product-3
22:20:42 [trackbot]
ISSUE-10 (Privacy in User Context) associated with PRODUCT-3.
22:20:56 [jasonjgw]
There are larger topics that could productively be discussed on list, e.g., privacy issues raised by User Contexts.
22:21:13 [jcraig]
js: no objection to earlier agenda and use of surveys to organize meeting efficiency
22:21:17 [jasonjgw]
Discussion of grounding this topic in open issues on the issue list.
22:21:56 [jcraig]
js: will call for agenda items on wednesday or thursday of week prior to call
22:22:07 [jcraig]
s/will/i will/
22:22:44 [jcraig]
jw: surveys tend to be most useful with existing controversies
22:23:05 [jcraig]
mc: will also open survey items to other suggestions
22:23:38 [jcraig]
RESOLUTION: Janina and Michael will try the early agenda and survey approach
22:23:57 [jcraig]
22:24:01 [jcraig]
22:24:42 [jcraig]
zakim, next item
22:24:42 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Reconsidering Our User Context Process" taken up [from janina]
22:25:25 [jcraig]
js: CSUN takeaway is that we need this as soon as possible
22:26:48 [jcraig]
js: ~ Events was more concrete. WG understanding of User Context draft is more subjective. Need to coalesce WG opinion.
22:27:07 [jcraig]
js: need more use cases for User Context module.
22:27:37 [jcraig]
s/Events was/Events module is/
22:27:42 [MichaelC]
q+ to volunteer to take actions
22:28:35 [jcraig]
js: could have an action to clean up the use case wiki, so that the read is not repetitive. Cooper volunteered.
22:30:16 [jcraig]
mc: Some requirements were around things like tree controls. e.g. "command to open a tree branch" (expad request)
22:30:26 [jcraig]
22:31:12 [jcraig]
mc: some are accessibility requirements PFWG should work on in other technologies.
22:31:40 [jcraig]
mc: in order to more clearly focus the IndieUI work
22:33:00 [jasonjgw]
James agrees that use cases need to be collapsed/reorganized as discussed.
22:33:32 [jasonjgw]
Some use cases are covered by events not yet in the draft and should be consolidated in the requirements.
22:33:48 [janina]
22:33:53 [janina]
ack m
22:33:53 [Zakim]
MichaelC, you wanted to volunteer to take actions
22:34:28 [Zakim]
22:34:52 [jcraig]
mc: need to sort and reorg Use Case requirements, and identify related requirements.
22:34:53 [MichaelC]
zakim, Ipcaller is Andy_Heath
22:34:53 [Zakim]
+Andy_Heath; got it
22:35:56 [jcraig]
jw: Identifying use cases for User Context would help codify WG understanding regarding this module
22:36:51 [jcraig]
jw: seems most useful for cases that are most controversial
22:37:35 [janina]
22:37:39 [janina]
ack ja
22:37:43 [richardschwerdtfeger]
richardschwerdtfeger has joined #indie-ui
22:37:48 [jcraig]
js: I don't think they were controversial in that anyone disagreed they were useful, just regarding the technical and UI implementation.
22:37:55 [MichaelC]
22:38:06 [Zakim]
22:38:29 [jcraig]
jw: I suggest that some (all?) of the more easily specified prefs are already covered by other specs.
22:38:31 [jcraig]
22:39:06 [jcraig]
ah: I think all of these are necessary and not covered by existing technologies
22:40:07 [jcraig]
js: privacy issues need use cases, for example less private at work or with your bank than with forums, or general sites
22:40:23 [janina]
22:40:29 [janina]
ack m
22:40:30 [jcraig]
action: cooper to consolidate use cases
22:40:30 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-42 - Consolidate use cases [on Michael Cooper - due 2013-03-13].
22:41:12 [jcraig]
mc: later step will be thinking about which use cases are most relevant to User Context
22:42:24 [MichaelC]
ack me
22:42:25 [jcraig]
mc: first pass of use case cleanup will be about structure more than content
22:42:43 [Zakim]
22:42:52 [MichaelC]
ack j
22:42:53 [jcraig]
22:43:43 [Zakim]
22:43:58 [MichaelC]
zakim, IPcaller is Andy_Heath
22:43:58 [Zakim]
+Andy_Heath; got it
22:46:11 [jcraig]
jc: mentioned captions as an example of one that is not fully covered by other technologies, including WebVTT
22:46:34 [jcraig]
js: WebVTT is competing with TTML
22:46:56 [jcraig]
js: CVA will probably go TTML; may have to support both.
22:47:21 [jcraig]
22:48:15 [jcraig]
js: something about key/value pairs?
22:48:59 [MichaelC]
q+ to volunteer to reformat the proposal from Andy / Rich as key value pairs - as a proposed structure only to show how it would look, not comments on content
22:49:05 [jcraig]
js: to improve efficiency of spec prod, need to also prioritize each use case and feature
22:50:10 [jcraig]
mc: andy and rich's proposal included properties and multiple values
22:50:15 [richardschwerdtfeger]
22:50:49 [jcraig]
mc: could be more understandable as simpler key/value pairs
22:51:02 [janina]
22:52:01 [janina]
ack m
22:52:01 [Zakim]
MichaelC, you wanted to volunteer to reformat the proposal from Andy / Rich as key value pairs - as a proposed structure only to show how it would look, not comments on content
22:52:40 [MichaelC]
action: cooper to reformat the proposal from Andy / Rich as key value pairs
22:52:41 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-43 - Reformat the proposal from Andy / Rich as key value pairs [on Michael Cooper - due 2013-03-13].
22:53:01 [richardschwerdtfeger]
22:53:13 [jcraig]
rs: i like the idea of key/value pairs
22:53:22 [richardschwerdtfeger]
22:53:30 [janina]
ack r
22:53:55 [jcraig]
ah: will make comments on IRC if call drops out
22:54:14 [jcraig]
ah: can't do "influencing" with key value pairs?
22:54:50 [jcraig]
s/"influencing" with key value pairs?/inferencing with key value pairs/
22:55:25 [jcraig]
ah: discussing inferencing main value versus fallback values or lower priority values
22:55:52 [jcraig]
mc: I'll take a pass at showing how that can be done with key/value pairs
22:56:46 [jcraig]
js: CSUN consensus "what do we do until we can use IndieUI"
22:56:52 [jcraig]
22:57:22 [jcraig]
q+ to make sure people are not promoting IndieUI as the spec that will solve everything
22:57:36 [jcraig]
ack j
22:57:36 [Zakim]
jcraig, you wanted to make sure people are not promoting IndieUI as the spec that will solve everything
22:58:42 [richardschwerdtfeger]
23:01:01 [MichaelC]
ack r
23:01:26 [Zakim]
23:01:45 [Zakim]
23:01:46 [jcraig]
ack j
23:02:23 [jcraig]
jw: web app authors will have to implement
23:03:16 [jcraig]
23:03:54 [Zakim]
23:03:55 [Zakim]
23:03:55 [Zakim]
23:03:57 [Zakim]
23:04:00 [Zakim]
23:04:02 [Zakim]
WAI_Indie()5:00PM has ended
23:04:02 [Zakim]
Attendees were Michael_Cooper, Andy_Heath, Jason_White, Janina_Sajka, jcraig, Rich, Cooper
23:04:03 [jcraig]
jcraig has left #indie-ui
23:15:12 [MichaelC]
rrsagent, make minutes
23:15:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MichaelC
23:15:49 [MichaelC]
trackbot, end meeting
23:15:49 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
23:15:49 [Zakim]
sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
23:15:57 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
23:15:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
23:15:58 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
23:15:58 [RRSAgent]
I see 2 open action items saved in :
23:15:58 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: cooper to consolidate use cases [1]
23:15:58 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
23:15:58 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: cooper to reformat the proposal from Andy / Rich as key value pairs [2]
23:15:58 [RRSAgent]
recorded in