14:48:01 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #mlw-lt
14:48:01 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/03/04-mlw-lt-irc
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14:48:16 <fsasaki> meeting: MLW-LT WG
14:48:17 <fsasaki> chair: felix
14:50:26 <fsasaki> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Mar/0039.html
14:50:33 <fsasaki> rrsagent, make log public
14:50:40 <fsasaki> topic: roll call
14:50:43 <fsasaki> checking attendance ...
14:50:49 <fsasaki> present+ fsasaki
14:51:07 <fsasaki> regrets+ Pablo
14:51:11 <fsasaki> scribe: tbd
14:51:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/03/04-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
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14:59:36 <omstefanov> present+ omstefanov
14:59:43 <tadej> present+ tadej
15:00:59 <kfritsche> present+ Karl
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15:01:31 <daveL> present+ daveLewis
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15:01:49 <philr> present+ philr
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15:02:08 <shaunm> present+ shaunm
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15:02:32 <fsasaki> scribe: tadej
15:02:34 <Yves_> present+ Yves
15:02:48 <giuseppe> present+ Giuseppe
15:02:58 <DomJones> present+ DomJones
15:02:59 <Ankit> Ankit has joined #mlw-lt
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15:03:07 <Marcis> present+ Marcis
15:03:08 <Ankit> present+ Ankit
15:03:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/03/04-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
15:03:23 <mdelolmo> present+ mdelolmo
15:03:27 <tadej> topic: High level usage scenarios publication
15:04:02 <Milan> Milan has joined #mlw-lt
15:04:44 <Milan> present+ Milan
15:04:51 <Pedro> Pedro has joined #mlw-lt
15:04:57 <fsasaki> topic: XLIFF+ITS namespace discussion, other mapping topics
15:05:32 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Mar/0034.html
15:05:33 <tadej> fsasaki: Felix had action item to check whether W3C can host the namespace; alternative was to use the itsx namespace
15:05:43 <Des> Des has joined #mlw-lt
15:06:02 <tadej> .. David mention that itsx was used by other applications, so it would need to be a different namespace
15:06:03 <Des> present+ Des
15:06:51 <Pedro> present+ Pedro
15:07:26 <tadej> daveL: we encountered similar things in provenance, ITS ontology;
15:07:50 <tadej> ... having the extension in a separately addressable file made sense for us
15:07:55 <fsasaki> http://itstool.org/extensions/
15:08:08 <fsasaki> <itst:match selector="/mal:page"/>
15:08:37 <tadej> fsasaki: itst is currently used by the ITS tools,
15:09:23 <swalter> swalter has joined #mlw-lt
15:09:36 <tadej> fsasaki: People should be able to create their own extension of the namespace, with the ability to have stand-alone files for the namespaces
15:09:57 <tadej> daveL: can we have sub-spaces there? /rdf, etc?
15:10:24 <leroy> leroy has joined #mlw-lt
15:10:25 <tadej> fsasaki: yes, since it's an URI
15:10:33 <daveL> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Provenance_Best_Practice#Extraction
15:11:35 <tadej> daveL: here's an example of how we used extensions in our provenance RDF example
15:12:43 <tadej> ... we want to be able to use it both in RDF use cases, as well as XLIFF
15:13:02 <tadej> fsasaki: Why would the namespace for the RDF be different as for XLIFF?
15:13:22 <tadej> daveL: we could manage them separately, not sure if any other difference
15:13:47 <tadej> ... in the RDF one, we have 'domain', but it wouldn't map to an existing ITS XML attribute
15:14:15 <tadej> fsasaki: would you make use of 'domain' data type when validating RDF?
15:14:44 <clieske> clieske has joined #mlw-lt
15:14:58 <tadej> daveL: yes, you could actually do this within RDF
15:15:08 <tadej> fsasaki: RDF tools usually don't resolve the XSD to enforce data types
15:16:18 <tadej> fsasaki: would people like an XSD on the namespace URI location?
15:16:52 <tadej> daveL: David should know more on that
15:17:07 <fsasaki> topic: Locale filter exclusion
15:17:10 <leroy> present+ leroy
15:17:32 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0320.html
15:18:03 <fsasaki> <p its-locale-filter-list="*-CA">Legal notice for Canada</p>
15:18:15 <tadej> fsasaki: we want an ability for some content to be excluded; yves proposed using the ! operator for 'excluding' a particular local
15:18:20 <tadej> s/local/locale/
15:18:36 <fsasaki> <p its-locale-filter-list="!*-CA">Legal notice for all locales except Canada</p>
15:19:10 <tadej> shaunm: we had that functionality, but no-one wanted it
15:19:38 <tadej> fsasaki: we dropped it in August, and we didn't have a clear record of discussion beyond private e-mails
15:20:09 <tadej> Yves_: i hadn't followed up on that topic
15:20:20 <tadej> ... but it is still useful functionality
15:20:41 <tadej> fsasaki: would that result into additional changes in the test suite?
15:21:02 <tadej> Yves_: current test cases only include locales, we'd need to add a new test case for excluding
15:21:17 <tadej> shaunm: it's a fairly big change for a last call
15:21:59 <tadej> fsasaki: we shouldn't avoid doing that, we don't have to make a final decision today
15:22:15 <tadej> Des: I support the ! exclusion proposal
15:22:58 <tadej> fsasaki: we have 5 implementers for locale filter
15:22:58 <omstefanov> an excluding test case should show excluding of more than 1 case, such would be realistic. The example Yves brought is so "real world" it's hard to believe we missed it.
15:23:33 <tadej> fsasaki: do people have a preference for the ! over a special attribute?
15:23:50 <omstefanov> what would the attribute look like, and would it be IN ADDITION TO positive selections?
15:23:51 <tadej> shaunm: attribute also isn't problematic
15:23:56 <Ankit> either way (! or keyword) wors for us (DCU)
15:24:15 <tadej> Yves_: personally think ! is easier, but not against a specific attribute
15:24:17 <clieske> BCP47 does not provide an impression for "inverse"?
15:24:32 <fsasaki> no
15:24:36 <clieske> Should it? :-)
15:26:45 <tadej> clieske: this is a suggestion for providing feedback to BCP47 people for including an exclusion syntax
15:27:03 <tadej> action: felix to check with I18N group about exclamation mark to signify an exclusion
15:27:44 <trackbot> Created ACTION-454 - Check with I18N group about exclamation mark to signify an exclusion [on Felix Sasaki - due 2013-03-11].
15:27:44 <tadej> action: Yves_ to create examples of locale filters with exclusion (using exclamation marks)
15:27:44 <trackbot> Error finding 'Yves_'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/users>.
15:27:44 <tadej> action: Yves to create examples of locale filters with exclusion (using exclamation marks)
15:27:44 <trackbot> Created ACTION-455 - Create examples of locale filters with exclusion (using exclamation marks) [on Yves Savourel - due 2013-03-11].
15:27:44 <fsasaki> topic: HTML and ITS discussion
15:27:50 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0298.html
15:29:59 <tadej> Yves_: some html elements have counterintutitive behaviour on inheritance, for instance <del> shouldn't be translatable, whileits sub-elements can have different defaults
15:30:06 <tadej> s/whileits/while its/
15:30:22 <tadej> s/counterintutitive/counterintuitive/
15:31:11 <tadej> Yves_: we shouldn't make things like this compicated for the user
15:31:22 <tadej> kfritsche: it makes sense to implement this as rules
15:31:45 <fsasaki> s/rules/defaults, not as rules/
15:31:53 <tadej> s/rules/defaults/
15:32:19 <tadej> shaunm: we could make the same argument for every format
15:32:40 <tadej> ... it becomes a problem on how we apply informaiton
15:32:46 <tadej> s/informaiton/information/
15:33:13 <tadej> fsasaki: in practice, many tools have HTML filters, which describe defaults different to the defaults in the format-agnostic ITS spec
15:33:39 <tadej> ... for instance, the translate in HTML will have different defaults than its:translate
15:33:43 <fsasaki> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21085
15:33:51 <fsasaki> above is the HTML5 bugs
15:34:02 <fsasaki> s/bugs/bug/
15:35:08 <tadej> Yves_: shaun has a point, but in this case we write against the HTML5 spec, which we refer to specifically. it might make sense to have different defaults for that particular format
15:35:58 <tadej> fsasaki: another argument might be the workflows of Linguaserve, where XHTML is used in the XML processing chain, as well as HTML processing chains, and having them aligned can be beneficial
15:36:40 <tadej> ... the question is also for the xml-only implementers: will they be required to implement these defaults
15:37:10 <tadej> Pedro: yes, we have this use case
15:38:32 <tadej> fsasaki: we need some more feedback on this on mailing list. let's keep the topic on the agenda and see how the discussion moves forward
15:38:34 <fsasaki> topic: Testing - good news
15:38:55 <fsasaki> http://htmlpreview.github.com/?https://raw.github.com/finnle/ITS-2.0-Testsuite/master/its2.0/testSuiteDashboard.html#conformance-classes-overview
15:39:20 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt-tests/2013Mar/0000.html
15:39:53 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/2012/09/mlw-lt-charter.html
15:39:55 <tadej> fsasaki: here's the test suite status
15:40:30 <Marcis> Is the link correct? I see: Document not found
15:40:49 <tadej> ... our charter says that we do testing from March to October, and we're mostly done. We can take time to finalize some features, and I'm confident we won't need much time for testing
15:40:49 <Marcis> Ok, thanks
15:41:40 <tadej> philr: one topic from last week was discussing which way should the stand-off references point?
15:42:29 <tadej> fsasaki: I made the experiment from inverting the pointer direction, from outside to inside might be more efficient
15:43:14 <tadej> action: philr to follow up on stand-off pointer direction (quality, provenance)
15:43:14 <trackbot> Error finding 'philr'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/users>.
15:43:19 <tadej> action: phil to follow up on stand-off pointer direction (quality, provenance)
15:43:19 <trackbot> Created ACTION-456 - Follow up on stand-off pointer direction (quality, provenance) [on Phil Ritchie - due 2013-03-11].
15:43:26 <fsasaki> topic: Test suite errors, please fix if you see your name
15:44:07 <tadej> fsasaki: some errors aren't really errors, for instance RDFa attributes
15:44:25 <tadej> fsasaki: the output will likely influence the output of the test suite
15:44:39 <tadej> ... so having an update in time will be helpful
15:44:56 <fsasaki> topic: clarify character encoding behaviour see latest thread
15:46:21 <tadej> swalter: the discussion split in several threads. we made some specification on how a program should behave when not supporting an encoding given constraints, there wasn't any consensus on what should be done with the storageSize constraint
15:47:03 <tadej> swalter: it usually denotes the size of the database field, and it's not a MUST. how can we have a MUST, if it's not required behavior
15:47:46 <tadej> fsasaki: if we feel that a MUST is not necessary, we can reject the comment
15:48:29 <tadej> shaunm: what should the program do if it doesn't understand the character encoding?
15:49:06 <tadej> swalter: the program uses the encoding to verify the constraint, but it's not obligatory to validate that
15:49:47 <tadej> swalter: As an user of ITS, you could feel unsafe whether you give a tool a constraint which it will not obey
15:50:03 <tadej> ... especially when there are consumers that may care
15:50:14 <tadej> ... however, we normally don't constrain consumers
15:50:48 <tadej> Yves_: we could have a note that would describe the expected behaviour (described with lowercase should, must)
15:50:59 <tadej> ... and not worry about conformance at our level
15:51:23 <tadej> swalter: there could be a distinction between what consumers or producers conform to
15:51:52 <tadej> fsasaki: should we push for such a note?
15:52:55 <tadej> action: swalter to propose a note for the character encoding behaviour [I18N-ISSUE-246]
15:52:55 <trackbot> Error finding 'swalter'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/users>.
15:53:03 <fsasaki> https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/106
15:53:40 <tadej> action: Stephan to propose a note for the character encoding behaviour [I18N-ISSUE-246]
15:53:40 <trackbot> Error finding 'Stephan'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/users>.
15:53:50 <tadej> action: Stephan Walter to propose a note for the character encoding behaviour [I18N-ISSUE-246]
15:53:50 <trackbot> Error finding 'Stephan'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/users>.
15:54:05 <fsasaki> topic: ontology
15:54:11 <fsasaki> no further update, see discussion above
15:54:29 <fsasaki> topic: hanlding of defaults in test suite
15:54:30 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Mar/0045.html
15:54:39 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Mar/0044.html
15:55:53 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Mar/0046.html
15:56:07 <tadej> kfritsche: the defaults in the storage encoding is a value, but the understanding of the default was that it was integrated later; we propose the behavior that would set it to utf-8 if no other value was present
15:57:11 <tadej> Yves_: it's different behaviour than ordinary defaults
15:57:55 <fsasaki> topic: https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/actions/open
15:59:03 <fsasaki> action-390?
15:59:03 <trackbot> ACTION-390 -- Tadej Štajner to check tan examples and test suite with regards to presence of annotatorsRef -- due 2013-01-30 -- OPEN
15:59:03 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/actions/390
15:59:19 <clieske> present+ chriLi
15:59:22 <fsasaki> tadej: can be closed, done, changes are in github pull requeste
15:59:25 <fsasaki> close action-390
15:59:25 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-390 Check tan examples and test suite with regards to presence of annotatorsRef.
15:59:53 <fsasaki> tadej: did the check, all examples are valid
16:00:11 <fsasaki> topic: aob
16:00:35 <tadej> fsasaki: anyone at CeBIT?
16:01:01 <tadej> fsasaki: we'll have some demos for ITS, thanks to Cocomore
16:02:50 <tadej> fsasaki: is the current schedule of calls ok for all?
16:03:29 <tadej> ... right now, we still don't have a right call time that works for everyone. let's try again after the review
16:04:06 <tadej> rrsagent, end meeting
16:04:06 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'end meeting', tadej.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:04:39 <tadej> rrsagent, show action items
16:04:39 <RRSAgent> I see 8 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/03/04-mlw-lt-actions.rdf :
16:04:39 <RRSAgent> ACTION: felix to check with I18N group about exclamation mark to signify an exclusion [1]
16:04:39 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/03/04-mlw-lt-irc#T15-27-03
16:04:39 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Yves_ to create examples of locale filters with exclusion (using exclamation marks) [2]
16:04:39 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/03/04-mlw-lt-irc#T15-27-44-1
16:04:39 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Yves to create examples of locale filters with exclusion (using exclamation marks) [3]
16:04:39 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/03/04-mlw-lt-irc#T15-27-44-3
16:04:39 <RRSAgent> ACTION: philr to follow up on stand-off pointer direction (quality, provenance) [4]
16:04:39 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/03/04-mlw-lt-irc#T15-43-14
16:04:39 <RRSAgent> ACTION: phil to follow up on stand-off pointer direction (quality, provenance) [5]
16:04:39 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/03/04-mlw-lt-irc#T15-43-19
16:04:39 <RRSAgent> ACTION: swalter to propose a note for the character encoding behaviour [I18N-ISSUE-246] [6]
16:04:39 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/03/04-mlw-lt-irc#T15-52-55
16:04:39 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Stephan to propose a note for the character encoding behaviour [I18N-ISSUE-246] [7]
16:04:39 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/03/04-mlw-lt-irc#T15-53-40
16:04:39 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Stephan Walter to propose a note for the character encoding behaviour [I18N-ISSUE-246] [8]
16:04:39 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/03/04-mlw-lt-irc#T15-53-50
16:05:32 <fsasaki> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:05:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/03/04-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
16:05:41 <tadej> rrsagent, drop action 7
16:05:54 <tadej> rrsagent, drop action 6
16:05:58 <tadej> rrsagent, show action items
16:05:58 <RRSAgent> I see 6 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/03/04-mlw-lt-actions.rdf :
16:05:58 <RRSAgent> ACTION: felix to check with I18N group about exclamation mark to signify an exclusion [1]
16:05:58 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/03/04-mlw-lt-irc#T15-27-03
16:05:58 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Yves_ to create examples of locale filters with exclusion (using exclamation marks) [2]
16:05:58 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/03/04-mlw-lt-irc#T15-27-44-1
16:05:58 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Yves to create examples of locale filters with exclusion (using exclamation marks) [3]
16:05:58 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/03/04-mlw-lt-irc#T15-27-44-3
16:05:58 <RRSAgent> ACTION: philr to follow up on stand-off pointer direction (quality, provenance) [4]
16:05:58 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/03/04-mlw-lt-irc#T15-43-14
16:05:58 <RRSAgent> ACTION: phil to follow up on stand-off pointer direction (quality, provenance) [5]
16:05:58 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/03/04-mlw-lt-irc#T15-43-19
16:05:58 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Stephan Walter to propose a note for the character encoding behaviour [I18N-ISSUE-246] [8]
16:05:58 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/03/04-mlw-lt-irc#T15-53-50
16:06:38 <tadej> rrsagent, drop action 4
16:06:44 <tadej> rrsagent, drop action 2
16:06:52 <tadej> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:06:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/03/04-mlw-lt-minutes.html tadej
16:08:31 <tadej> RRSAgent, leave
16:08:31 <RRSAgent> I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/03/04-mlw-lt-actions.rdf :
16:08:31 <RRSAgent> ACTION: felix to check with I18N group about exclamation mark to signify an exclusion [1]
16:08:31 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/03/04-mlw-lt-irc#T15-27-03
16:08:31 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Yves to create examples of locale filters with exclusion (using exclamation marks) [3]
16:08:31 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/03/04-mlw-lt-irc#T15-27-44-3
16:08:31 <RRSAgent> ACTION: phil to follow up on stand-off pointer direction (quality, provenance) [5]
16:08:31 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/03/04-mlw-lt-irc#T15-43-19
16:08:31 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Stephan Walter to propose a note for the character encoding behaviour [I18N-ISSUE-246] [8]
16:08:31 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/03/04-mlw-lt-irc#T15-53-50