IRC log of i18n on 2013-02-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:34:24 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #i18n
15:34:24 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/02/28-i18n-irc
15:34:28 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #i18n
15:34:37 [aphillip]
trackbot, prepare teleconference
15:34:39 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
15:34:41 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 4186
15:34:41 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 26 minutes
15:34:42 [trackbot]
Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
15:34:42 [trackbot]
Date: 28 February 2013
15:35:00 [aphillip]
Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2013Feb/0022.html
15:35:21 [aphillip]
agenda+ Publication of "Use Cases & Exploratory Approaches for Ruby Markup"
15:35:27 [aphillip]
agenda+ Moving Forward the Bidi Change Proposal
15:35:42 [aphillip]
agenda+ Charmod-Norm
15:35:52 [aphillip]
Regrets: David
15:36:28 [aphillip]
agenda+ review issues (246, encoding, etc.)
15:36:35 [aphillip]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:36:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/28-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
15:37:01 [aphillip]
rrsagent, set logs world
15:37:17 [aphillip]
Chair: Addison Phillips
15:51:44 [aphillip]
zakim, who is here?
15:51:44 [Zakim]
I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM has not yet started, aphillip
15:51:45 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, aphillip, r12a, TabAtkins_, fantasai, trackbot
15:51:52 [aphillip]
zakim, agenda?
15:51:52 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
15:51:53 [Zakim]
1. Publication of "Use Cases & Exploratory Approaches for Ruby Markup" [from aphillip]
15:51:53 [Zakim]
2. Moving Forward the Bidi Change Proposal [from aphillip]
15:51:53 [Zakim]
3. Charmod-Norm [from aphillip]
15:51:53 [Zakim]
4. review issues (246, encoding, etc.) [from aphillip]
15:59:30 [Zakim]
I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM has now started
15:59:37 [Zakim]
+ +1.206.266.aaaa
15:59:51 [aphillip]
zakim, +1.206.266.aaaa is me
15:59:51 [Zakim]
+aphillip; got it
15:59:54 [r12a]
zakim, dial richard
15:59:54 [Zakim]
ok, r12a; the call is being made
15:59:55 [Zakim]
+Richard
15:59:59 [aphillip]
zakim, who is here?
15:59:59 [Zakim]
On the phone I see aphillip, Richard (muted)
16:00:01 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, aphillip, r12a, TabAtkins_, fantasai, trackbot
16:02:00 [Zakim]
+Norbert
16:02:05 [aphillip]
agenda+ The Question That Won't Die: What Time is This Meeting At?
16:02:21 [Norbert]
Norbert has joined #i18n
16:03:35 [matial]
matial has joined #i18n
16:03:51 [r12a]
zakim, who's here?
16:03:51 [Zakim]
On the phone I see aphillip, Richard, Norbert
16:03:52 [Zakim]
On IRC I see matial, Norbert, Zakim, RRSAgent, aphillip, r12a, TabAtkins_, fantasai, trackbot
16:04:54 [Zakim]
+??P24
16:05:05 [matial]
zakim, ??p24 is me
16:05:05 [Zakim]
+matial; got it
16:05:36 [aphillip]
zakim, agenda?
16:05:36 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
16:05:38 [Zakim]
1. Publication of "Use Cases & Exploratory Approaches for Ruby Markup" [from aphillip]
16:05:38 [Zakim]
2. Moving Forward the Bidi Change Proposal [from aphillip]
16:05:38 [Zakim]
3. Charmod-Norm [from aphillip]
16:05:38 [Zakim]
4. review issues (246, encoding, etc.) [from aphillip]
16:05:38 [Zakim]
5. The Question That Won't Die: What Time is This Meeting At? [from aphillip]
16:05:40 [aphillip]
Topic: Agenda
16:06:11 [John_C_Klensin]
John_C_Klensin has joined #i18n
16:06:14 [aphillip]
Topic: Action Items
16:06:16 [Najib-ma]
Najib-ma has joined #i18N
16:06:46 [r12a]
http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open
16:07:04 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.245.aabb
16:08:07 [Zakim]
+fantasai
16:08:30 [aphillip]
close ACTION-176
16:08:30 [trackbot]
Closed ACTION-176 Ping anne about encoding spec.
16:08:53 [aphillip]
close action-186
16:08:53 [trackbot]
Closed ACTION-186 Add floating times to pipeline.
16:09:43 [aphillip]
ACTION-187: contacted most browsers (all but mozilla, but have contact)
16:09:43 [trackbot]
Notes added to ACTION-187 Provide darobin with contacts in browser vendors.
16:09:48 [aphillip]
Regrets+ felix
16:09:51 [aphillip]
zakim, who is here?
16:09:51 [Zakim]
On the phone I see aphillip, Richard, Norbert, matial (muted), +1.617.245.aabb, fantasai
16:09:53 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Najib-ma, John_C_Klensin, matial, Norbert, Zakim, RRSAgent, aphillip, r12a, TabAtkins_, fantasai, trackbot
16:10:08 [aphillip]
zakim +1.617 is John_C_Klensin
16:10:43 [aphillip]
close action-187
16:10:43 [trackbot]
Closed ACTION-187 Provide darobin with contacts in browser vendors.
16:10:53 [aphillip]
close action-188
16:10:53 [trackbot]
Closed ACTION-188 Merge ruby documents for publication as a WG Note.
16:11:08 [aphillip]
Topic: Info Share
16:11:13 [aphillip]
ScribeNick: aphillip
16:11:27 [aphillip]
richard: noticed Leif Havard Silli is now editor of polyglot
16:12:21 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.536.aacc
16:12:42 [r12a]
zakim, who's here ?
16:12:42 [Zakim]
On the phone I see aphillip, Richard, Norbert, matial (muted), +1.617.245.aabb, fantasai, +1.408.536.aacc
16:12:45 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Najib-ma, John_C_Klensin, matial, Norbert, Zakim, RRSAgent, aphillip, r12a, TabAtkins_, fantasai, trackbot
16:13:14 [r12a]
zakim, aacc is JohnO
16:13:14 [Zakim]
+JohnO; got it
16:13:28 [r12a]
zakim, aabb is JohnK
16:13:28 [Zakim]
+JohnK; got it
16:13:38 [r12a]
zakim, who's here ?
16:13:38 [Zakim]
On the phone I see aphillip, Richard, Norbert, matial (muted), JohnK, fantasai, JohnO
16:13:40 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Najib-ma, John_C_Klensin, matial, Norbert, Zakim, RRSAgent, aphillip, r12a, TabAtkins_, fantasai, trackbot
16:13:44 [aphillip]
zakim, agenda?
16:13:44 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
16:13:46 [Zakim]
1. Publication of "Use Cases & Exploratory Approaches for Ruby Markup" [from aphillip]
16:13:46 [Zakim]
2. Moving Forward the Bidi Change Proposal [from aphillip]
16:13:46 [Zakim]
3. Charmod-Norm [from aphillip]
16:13:46 [Zakim]
4. review issues (246, encoding, etc.) [from aphillip]
16:13:46 [Zakim]
5. The Question That Won't Die: What Time is This Meeting At? [from aphillip]
16:14:16 [aphillip]
zakim, take up 1
16:14:16 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'take up 1', aphillip
16:14:21 [joconner]
joconner has joined #i18n
16:14:33 [aphillip]
zakim, take up agendum 1
16:14:33 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Publication of "Use Cases & Exploratory Approaches for Ruby Markup"" taken up [from aphillip]
16:14:44 [jan]
jan has joined #i18n
16:14:44 [r12a]
http://www.w3.org/International/docs/ruby/
16:15:21 [aphillip]
richard: put a lot of Leif's comments in (simplfying headings and such)
16:15:24 [aphillip]
... added a snapshot of other document I produced as appendix
16:15:31 [aphillip]
... other changes made are change marked
16:15:39 [aphillip]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:15:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/28-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
16:15:45 [aphillip]
richard: also converted to html5
16:16:23 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
16:16:54 [aphillip]
zakim, [IPcaller] is jan
16:16:54 [Zakim]
+jan; got it
16:17:35 [aphillip]
chair: review for next week publication as note status
16:18:06 [aphillip]
action: richard: announce ruby note will be published as note, last call for next week
16:18:06 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-189 - Announce ruby note will be published as note, last call for next week [on Richard Ishida - due 2013-03-07].
16:18:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/28-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
16:19:40 [r12a]
http://www.w3.org/International/notes/ruby-extension/
16:20:30 [aphillip]
richard: elika may want to look at that... some embedding improvements?
16:21:15 [aphillip]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-cjk/2013JanMar/0058.html
16:22:41 [aphillip]
addison: above thread about bopomofo support
16:24:46 [aphillip]
richard: (describing various issues for zhuyin ruby and layout)
16:25:27 [aphillip]
fantasai: concern that there are two styles
16:25:44 [aphillip]
... what happens when writing bopomofo just as plain text
16:25:50 [aphillip]
... not as ruby, just as the base text
16:25:59 [aphillip]
... what happens to the tone marks?
16:26:12 [r12a]
http://rishida.net/blog/?p=494
16:26:16 [aphillip]
richard: wrote the above
16:26:24 [aphillip]
fantasai: kenny might know?
16:26:36 [aphillip]
richard: talked to kenny. put that info into above?
16:26:45 [aphillip]
... only have horizontal example
16:27:01 [aphillip]
... tone mark following
16:27:17 [aphillip]
... not sure of vertical, might have seen something
16:27:19 [aphillip]
... very rare
16:27:36 [aphillip]
... mostly used with the Chinese characters
16:28:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/28-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
16:28:33 [aphillip]
addison: any effect on note?
16:28:37 [aphillip]
richard: not really??
16:29:02 [aphillip]
fantasai: agree. issue is how to handle writing system in general or is this only when drawing ruby
16:29:13 [aphillip]
... in which case tie it into ruby specs
16:30:00 [aphillip]
action: richard: write to contacts and cjk list about bopomofo handling as base and as ruby text
16:30:00 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-190 - Write to contacts and cjk list about bopomofo handling as base and as ruby text [on Richard Ishida - due 2013-03-07].
16:30:09 [aphillip]
zakim, agenda?
16:30:09 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
16:30:10 [Zakim]
1. Publication of "Use Cases & Exploratory Approaches for Ruby Markup" [from aphillip]
16:30:10 [Zakim]
2. Moving Forward the Bidi Change Proposal [from aphillip]
16:30:10 [Zakim]
3. Charmod-Norm [from aphillip]
16:30:10 [Zakim]
4. review issues (246, encoding, etc.) [from aphillip]
16:30:10 [Zakim]
5. The Question That Won't Die: What Time is This Meeting At? [from aphillip]
16:30:22 [aphillip]
zakim, take up agendum 5
16:30:22 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "The Question That Won't Die: What Time is This Meeting At?" taken up [from aphillip]
16:30:33 [aphillip]
http://www.doodle.com/nzks8wivyfuk84mw
16:31:49 [aphillip]
Regrets+ aharon
16:32:21 [aphillip]
zakim, take up agendum 2
16:32:21 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Moving Forward the Bidi Change Proposal" taken up [from aphillip]
16:32:38 [aphillip]
richard: had a discussion with aharon and elika and tab last night
16:32:52 [r12a]
http://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Html-bidi-isolation
16:33:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/28-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
16:33:26 [aphillip]
richard: tab sent me a writeup and more info that I integrated to wiki as "proposal B" for the time being
16:33:48 [aphillip]
... upshot basically is that new values for @dir may have benefits
16:33:54 [aphillip]
... in that 1) may be easier
16:34:07 [aphillip]
... 2) transition period would be small-ish
16:34:19 [aphillip]
... so what is proposed is instead of rli/lri
16:34:31 [aphillip]
... use an 'r' and an 'l' value
16:34:44 [aphillip]
.. don't have to think about isolation
16:34:58 [aphillip]
... more familiar
16:35:06 [aphillip]
... and don't have to deprecate the @dir
16:35:10 [aphillip]
... easier to type
16:35:25 [aphillip]
... key thing is the transition period
16:36:21 [aphillip]
addison: has some feedback at my IMUG talk.. think better to migrate @dir
16:37:01 [aphillip]
johnK: a lot of people will get it wrong the other way and this is simple... less interop problems
16:37:31 [aphillip]
richard: if you use @dir and @direction then you get fallback behavior in unaware browsers
16:37:44 [aphillip]
... but transition is short because implementation is straightforward
16:37:53 [aphillip]
... use CSS-hack mentioned previously
16:38:01 [aphillip]
... otherwise use <bdi> for inline
16:38:12 [aphillip]
... and this is described in our bidi article
16:39:03 [aphillip]
addison: don't really like 'r' and 'l' as values, non-mnemonic
16:39:18 [aphillip]
richard: key issue is transition period
16:40:15 [aphillip]
addison: transition period may be somewhat long
16:42:14 [fantasai]
discussion of including the appropriate style rules into reset stylesheets / polyfill libraries
16:42:45 [aphillip]
richard: put out for discussion again
16:43:02 [aphillip]
... www-international or html or...?
16:43:20 [aphillip]
addison: winter at least, html too?
16:44:03 [aphillip]
fantasai: unsure of names?
16:44:25 [aphillip]
addison: new tokens or new attribute is the question and we're back to tokens?
16:45:21 [aphillip]
richard: bidi list, robin also
16:46:34 [aphillip]
action: richard: request comments on wiki page about bidi change proposal to robin, bidi list, winter list, and html
16:46:34 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-191 - Request comments on wiki page about bidi change proposal to robin, bidi list, winter list, and html [on Richard Ishida - due 2013-03-07].
16:46:41 [aphillip]
zakim, agenda?
16:46:41 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
16:46:43 [Zakim]
1. Publication of "Use Cases & Exploratory Approaches for Ruby Markup" [from aphillip]
16:46:43 [Zakim]
2. Moving Forward the Bidi Change Proposal [from aphillip]
16:46:43 [Zakim]
3. Charmod-Norm [from aphillip]
16:46:43 [Zakim]
4. review issues (246, encoding, etc.) [from aphillip]
16:46:43 [Zakim]
5. The Question That Won't Die: What Time is This Meeting At? [from aphillip]
16:47:46 [aphillip]
johnk: no strong thoughts on 'r' or 'l', except that single characters are generally a bad idea because too short and error prone
16:49:11 [aphillip]
zakim, take up agendum 3
16:49:11 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Charmod-Norm" taken up [from aphillip]
16:49:20 [aphillip]
http://www.doodle.com/nzks8wivyfuk84mw
16:49:29 [aphillip]
http://www.w3.org/International/wiki/CharmodNormProposal2013
16:50:05 [aphillip]
fantasai: (aside) planning to wrap up comments on text-decoration
16:50:24 [aphillip]
... open issue about underlining style skip spaces... do we skip ethopic
16:51:06 [fantasai]
ethiopic word space
16:51:09 [fantasai]
tibetan tsek
16:51:15 [aphillip]
action: addison: solicit from input Unicode on skipping spaces in css3 text-decoration specifically ethiopic word sep, etc.
16:51:15 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-192 - Solicit from input Unicode on skipping spaces in css3 text-decoration specifically ethiopic word sep, etc. [on Addison Phillips - due 2013-03-07].
16:51:19 [fantasai]
if spaces are skipped when underlining, should we skip those?
16:51:34 [aphillip]
richard: underline can be broken by descender?
16:51:41 [aphillip]
fantasai: yes, in particular style
16:52:08 [aphillip]
richard: in like tibetan, descenders can be generated by combinations
16:52:22 [aphillip]
fantasai: there is a skip-ink value to allow for that?
16:53:39 [aphillip]
richard: but tibetan or khmer, you have some characters that conditionally poke through baseline
16:54:00 [aphillip]
addison: happens on the rendered glyphs, not based on character
16:54:51 [aphillip]
action: richard: supply CSS3 with pictures of skip-ink for tibetan or khmer
16:54:51 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-193 - Supply CSS3 with pictures of skip-ink for tibetan or khmer [on Richard Ishida - due 2013-03-07].
16:55:12 [aphillip]
zakim, take up agendum 3
16:55:12 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Charmod-Norm" taken up [from aphillip]
16:55:15 [aphillip]
http://www.w3.org/International/wiki/CharmodNormProposal2013
16:55:39 [aphillip]
http://inter-locale.com/w3c/charmod-norm-1.1-draft.html
16:56:13 [r12a]
addison: started calling it charmod 1.1 - is that a good idea?
16:56:53 [r12a]
... history of character model as a whole is significantly about early n11n - this may point up the change in concepts
16:57:04 [r12a]
johnO: might be good idea
16:57:36 [r12a]
johnK: there are references all around, so if numbers are cheap let do it
16:58:18 [r12a]
addison: will will change the number then - tbd in what way
16:58:29 [r12a]
... so far i kept most ot he examples and definitions intact
16:59:03 [r12a]
... partly because we have specs that have specified those (full-, etc-n11n)
16:59:15 [r12a]
... took out all the requirements and put in wiki
16:59:30 [r12a]
... sensing that the focus of the doc is string matching now
16:59:38 [r12a]
... split into 3 chunks:
16:59:49 [r12a]
... 1. how to do string matching and normalization
17:00:07 [r12a]
... 2. unicode normalization, for people who used these recommendations before
17:00:20 [r12a]
... 3. non-normalizing specifications, what you need to know
17:00:37 [r12a]
... there are a couple that are obsolete or don't fit neatly, like security issues, etc
17:01:16 [r12a]
... next step is to pull section 4 into the document and position as the main focus
17:01:28 [r12a]
... also bring in materials on case folding as part of that
17:03:10 [r12a]
... terse statements (dos and donts) are in the wiki for review
17:03:27 [r12a]
... key ones at the top, and others nearer the bottom
17:03:50 [r12a]
norbert: so you want to move away from unicode n11n?
17:04:02 [Zakim]
-jan
17:04:33 [r12a]
adddison: you can't require it or depend on it for string matching, but the first req is that NFC makes life easier
17:04:46 [r12a]
norbert: first should be not to assume that text is normalized
17:04:56 [r12a]
... but user text probably should be normalised
17:05:14 [r12a]
... such as the find command in a browser
17:05:39 [r12a]
... maybe thats a should rather than a may
17:05:51 [joconner]
will have to drop off call, will stay on irc
17:06:03 [r12a]
johnK: if you don't require for searches users will be crazy
17:06:24 [Zakim]
-JohnO
17:06:28 [r12a]
addison: but also it makes them crazy if it looks the same but their css selector doesn't work
17:06:41 [r12a]
norbert: that's why i distinguish between user and code
17:08:14 [r12a]
r12a: you should modify only in the actual matching process - don't break an author's text
17:08:46 [Najib-ma]
Najib-ma has left #i18n
17:08:54 [Najib-ma]
Najib-ma has joined #i18N
17:09:17 [matial]
have to leave
17:09:47 [aphillip]
addison: I'll update charmod norm reqs
17:09:50 [Zakim]
-matial
17:09:56 [aphillip]
norbert: annotate what C I and S mean in the wiki
17:10:04 [aphillip]
Topic: AOB?
17:10:15 [r12a]
norbert: add a note about what [C] [S] and [I] mean in the wiki
17:10:42 [aphillip]
Topic: UTF-8 requirement
17:13:31 [r12a]
zakim, who's here ?
17:13:31 [Zakim]
On the phone I see aphillip, Richard, Norbert, JohnK, fantasai
17:13:32 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Najib-ma, jan, joconner, John_C_Klensin, Norbert, Zakim, RRSAgent, aphillip, r12a, TabAtkins_, fantasai, trackbot
17:13:52 [jan]
I had t odrop off the call to attend another one
17:16:31 [Zakim]
-fantasai
17:16:33 [aphillip]
norbert: propose Unicode must be supported (other encodings may be supported)
17:16:54 [aphillip]
addison: will make topic for next week (lost audience)
17:17:13 [Zakim]
-aphillip
17:17:15 [Zakim]
-JohnK
17:17:19 [Zakim]
-Norbert
17:17:20 [aphillip]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:17:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/28-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
17:17:25 [r12a]
zakim, drop richard
17:17:25 [Zakim]
Richard is being disconnected
17:17:26 [Zakim]
I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM has ended
17:17:26 [Zakim]
Attendees were aphillip, Richard, Norbert, matial, +1.617.245.aabb, fantasai, +1.408.536.aacc, JohnO, JohnK, jan
17:18:03 [aphillip]
Present: Addison, Fantasai, Richard, Norbert, John K, John O, Jan, Mati
17:18:18 [aphillip]
zakim, bye
17:18:18 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #i18n
17:18:22 [aphillip]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:18:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/28-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
17:19:04 [aphillip]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:19:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/28-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
18:32:12 [TabAtkins_]
/wc
18:32:13 [TabAtkins_]
TabAtkins_ has left #i18n