IRC log of rdf-wg on 2013-02-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:58:56 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
15:58:56 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/02/27-rdf-wg-irc
15:58:57 [Guus]: trackbot, start meeting
15:58:58 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs world
15:59:00 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be 73394
15:59:00 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
15:59:01 [trackbot]: Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:59:01 [trackbot]: Date: 27 February 2013
15:59:03 [pfps]: zakim, who is here?
15:59:03 [Zakim]: I notice SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has restarted
15:59:03 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs world
15:59:04 [Zakim]: On the phone I see +1.408.530.aaaa, Guus
15:59:04 [Zakim]: On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS, pfps, gkellogg, Guus, TallTed, SteveH, ivan, gavinc_, manu1, manu, yvesr, mischat, trackbot, sandro, ericP
15:59:05 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be 73394
15:59:06 [trackbot]: Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:59:06 [trackbot]: Date: 27 February 2013
15:59:06 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
15:59:10 [AndyS]: Partial regrets - I can only attend for about 45 mins.
15:59:23 [pfps]: zakim, aaaa is me
15:59:23 [Zakim]: sorry, pfps, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
15:59:36 [pfps]: zakim, who is on the phone?
15:59:36 [Zakim]: I notice SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has restarted
15:59:38 [Zakim]: On the phone I see +1.408.530.aaaa, Guus
15:59:52 [pfps]: zakim, aaaa is me
15:59:52 [Zakim]: +pfps; got it
16:00:01 [Zakim]: +??P2
16:00:05 [gkellogg]: zakim, I am ??P2
16:00:05 [Zakim]: +gkellogg; got it
16:00:09 [Zakim]: +??P3
16:00:19 [SteveH]: Zakim, ??p3 is me
16:00:19 [Zakim]: +SteveH; got it
16:00:36 [Zakim]: +OpenLink_Software
16:00:49 [TallTed]: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
16:00:50 [Zakim]: +TallTed; got it
16:00:52 [TallTed]: Zakim, mute me
16:00:52 [Zakim]: TallTed should now be muted
16:00:59 [TallTed]: TallTed has changed the topic to: RDF WG -- http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/ -- current agenda http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.02.27
16:01:00 [Zakim]: +??P6
16:01:05 [yvesr]: Zakim, ??P6 is me
16:01:05 [Zakim]: +yvesr; got it
16:01:21 [AZ]: AZ has joined #rdf-wg
16:02:16 [Guus]: zakim, who is here?
16:02:16 [Zakim]: On the phone I see pfps, Guus, gkellogg, SteveH, TallTed (muted), yvesr
16:02:18 [Zakim]: On IRC I see AZ, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS, pfps, gkellogg, Guus, TallTed, SteveH, ivan, gavinc_, manu1, manu, yvesr, mischat, trackbot, sandro, ericP
16:02:21 [Zakim]: +GavinC
16:02:43 [Zakim]: + +081165aabb
16:03:02 [AZ]: Zakim, aabb is me
16:03:02 [Zakim]: +AZ; got it
16:03:24 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
16:03:31 [AndyS]: zakim, IPCaller is me
16:03:31 [Zakim]: +AndyS; got it
16:03:47 [Arnaud]: Arnaud has joined #rdf-wg
16:04:20 [ivan]: zakim, dial ivan-voip
16:04:20 [Zakim]: ok, ivan; the call is being made
16:04:21 [Zakim]: +Ivan
16:04:27 [Zakim]: +Arnaud
16:04:33 [ivan]: zakim, mute me
16:04:33 [Zakim]: Ivan should now be muted
16:05:03 [Guus]: zakim, pick a scribe
16:05:03 [Zakim]: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose AZ
16:05:24 [markus]: markus has joined #rdf-wg
16:05:45 [AZ]: scribe: AZ
16:06:26 [AZ]: Topic: Admin
16:07:13 [Zakim]: +??P8
16:07:18 [markus]: zakim, ??P8 is me
16:07:18 [Zakim]: +markus; got it
16:07:20 [AZ]: gavinc_: there should be a page about the CR
16:07:40 [PatH]: PatH has joined #rdf-wg
16:07:42 [Zakim]: +Sandro
16:07:55 [AZ]: gavinc_: before Turtle being published we agreed to produce a document about thinigs done in Last Call?
16:09:20 [AZ]: Guus: we can close the comments by internalization group
16:09:35 [AZ]: Guus: Ivan proposed to write a page like the OWL page
16:09:49 [Souri]: Souri has joined #RDF-WG
16:09:55 [PatH]: having a little trouble calling in, working on it.
16:10:07 [AZ]: sandro: in RDF, documents are pretty much self standing
16:10:33 [gkellogg]: Turtle, TriG, and N-Triples would seem to be more closely related.
16:10:34 [Zakim]: +??P14
16:10:41 [AZ]: Guus: let us archive all comments being done since CR
16:10:45 [gavinc_]: Yeah, my thoughts as well gkellogg
16:10:55 [gavinc_]: given I have to update all three of those
16:11:01 [ivan]: ivan, unmute me
16:11:07 [Souri]: zakim, P14 is me
16:11:07 [Zakim]: sorry, Souri, I do not recognize a party named 'P14'
16:11:14 [Souri]: zakim, ??P14 is me
16:11:15 [Zakim]: +Souri; got it
16:11:31 [AZ]: gavinc_: I'll finish a page about the comments
16:11:59 [gkellogg]: q+ on test suite coverage
16:12:04 [AZ]: gavinc_: we have to publish the test cases
16:12:11 [AndyS]: +1 to gkellogg -- and NQuads.
16:12:17 [AZ]: sandro: they should be linked from the document
16:12:31 [gkellogg]: Conformance Report: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/reports/index.html
16:12:34 [PatH]: looks like I am going to have to be restricted to IRC until my phone carrier comes back :-(
16:12:35 [AZ]: ...: and we have to list the implementations
16:13:31 [pfps]: shouldn't we note this error and fix it at REC?
16:14:05 [AZ]: AndyS: their could be a formal publication of the test suite
16:14:25 [AZ]: ... W3C would use the test suite licence
16:15:01 [AZ]: (sorry did not get the end)
16:15:17 [sandro]: google brings me to http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Turtle_Test_Suite
16:15:47 [AndyS]: http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Legal/2008/04-testsuite-license.html
16:16:10 [AZ]: AndyS: they are not complaininng of tests suite licence, but they complain about the Apacche Licence attached to it
16:17:24 [AZ]: ... I could change this as a copywriter
16:17:34 [gavinc_]: I'd say the main issue is the lack of publication of the test suite
16:18:34 [AZ]: sandro: the page about test suite should have link to the suite
16:20:12 [AZ]: sandro: I can update the submission to point to the the suite
16:20:38 [Guus]: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/file/default/rdf-turtle/tests-ttl
16:20:56 [AZ]: Guus: in the extension request the link to test suite was the one posted
16:21:12 [gkellogg]: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/reports/index.html
16:21:49 [AZ]: Guus: who would like to take an action to do this
16:22:02 [AZ]: gavinc: I can do this
16:22:44 [AZ]: gavinc: I can also resolve the licence issue
16:23:39 [AZ]: gavinc: we can set up a mercurial directory and put a tag there
16:24:23 [AZ]: AndyS: sandro, could you check the W3C process for the test suite
16:25:05 [gkellogg]: List of dajobe's current Turtle tests, including test-31 through test-38: https://github.com/dajobe/raptor/tree/master/tests/turtle
16:25:05 [sandro]: action: sandro to learn about the w3c test suite license
16:25:05 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-232 - Learn about the w3c test suite license [on Sandro Hawke - due 2013-03-06].
16:25:15 [Guus]: ACTION Gavin to publish the consolidated test suite
16:25:15 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-233 - Publish the consolidated test suite [on Gavin Carothers - due 2013-03-06].
16:25:38 [AZ]: gavinc: all tests are under W3C license and ??? licence
16:25:43 [gavinc]: http://www.w3.org/2004/10/27-testcases
16:25:51 [sandro]: s/???/3-clause BSD/
16:25:59 [AndyS]: ??? == W3C test suite license
16:26:46 [Zakim]: +PatH
16:27:15 [gavinc]: https://github.com/dajobe/raptor/blob/master/tests/turtle/test-30.ttl
16:28:16 [AZ]: topic:Semantics
16:28:17 [gavinc]: btw #turtle exists ;)
16:28:46 [AndyS]: gregg - there was renumbering old 30 is new 27 and is there
16:28:47 [AZ]: Guus: there are several emails on the first editor's draft for semantics
16:28:54 [AZ]: ... from pfps and Path
16:28:58 [gkellogg]: andys: cool, thanks
16:29:27 [AndyS]: greeg - blame automated test suite writing.
16:29:35 [AZ]: PatH: I think all the issues can be resolved wihtout spending much telecon time
16:29:39 [AndyS]: s/greeg/gregg/
16:29:54 [AZ]: pfps: we have to resovle the issues on ill-typed literals do not denote anymore
16:30:24 [pfps]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Feb/0233.html
16:32:03 [AZ]: PatH: it's a substantial change to semantics and made in reaction to Richard's request
16:32:21 [ericP]: oops, looks like i missed the test suite topic
16:32:28 [ericP]: can anyone confirm/deny that?
16:32:38 [AZ]: ... who believe that a graph that has ill-typed literals should not be consistent
16:33:01 [AZ]: ... the proposal makes all triples with an ill-typed literal false
16:33:35 [pfps]: this change has been discussed extensively in the past, as well
16:33:43 [AZ]: ... I haven't find arguments really against it
16:34:10 [Guus]: PROPOSE: I propose closing Issue 109 as described by Pat back in November in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Nov/0195.html The proposal is, roughly, to make ill-typed literals not denote anything, which (due to the very picky details of the wording of the rest of the semantics) means that any triple with an ill-typed literal is false (and not ill-typed itself, which you might have thought).
16:34:21 [pfps]: +1
16:34:23 [AZ]: +1
16:34:24 [PatH]: +1
16:34:26 [TallTed]: +1
16:34:28 [yvesr]: +1
16:34:28 [Souri]: +1
16:34:29 [ivan]: +1
16:34:29 [pfps]: +0.999999
16:34:30 [Guus]: +1
16:34:32 [gkellogg]: +1
16:34:33 [sandro]: +1
16:34:33 [markus]: +1
16:34:43 [Arnaud]: 0
16:34:47 [Guus]: RESOLVED: propose closing Issue 109 as described by Pat back in November in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Nov/0195.html The proposal is, roughly, to make ill-typed literals not denote anything, which (due to the very picky details of the wording of the rest of the semantics) means that any triple with an ill-typed literal is false (and not ill-typed itself, which you might have thought).
16:35:35 [AZ]: pfps: which datatypes are required in RDF implementation
16:35:52 [AndyS]: q+
16:35:59 [gkellogg]: q-
16:36:00 [gavinc]: +1 to RDF XMLLiteral being optional... I swear we resolved that?
16:36:12 [sandro]: +1 I think so, too.
16:36:17 [gavinc]: ... are you SURE we don't?
16:36:37 [AZ]: ... in particular XMLLiteral?
16:37:22 [gavinc]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012May/0198.html
16:37:36 [sandro]: issue-13?
16:37:36 [trackbot]: ISSUE-13 -- Review RDF XML Literals -- closed
16:37:36 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/13
16:37:50 [AZ]: ... can someone fix the "list of resolutions"
16:37:53 [AndyS]: q-
16:38:07 [gavinc]: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/closed is a good place to start looking for resolutions :)
16:38:33 [AZ]: gavinc: HTML is optional too (ISSUE 33)
16:38:49 [gavinc]: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/63
16:39:02 [AZ]: s/63/33/
16:39:11 [AZ]: s/33/63/
16:39:42 [AZ]: ... the last issue is rdf:langString
16:39:59 [AZ]: s/.../pfps/
16:40:44 [AZ]: PatH: I think the idea was a datatype with empty lexical-to-value mapping
16:41:26 [gavinc]: Also, see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Nov/0071.html
16:41:28 [AZ]: ... the goal is to have a type for all literals but not force rdf:langString to be a proper datatype
16:41:39 [AZ]: pfps: this should be fixed in Concepts
16:41:58 [gavinc]: This is related to ISSUE-94
16:42:00 [gavinc]: ISSUE-94?
16:42:00 [trackbot]: ISSUE-94 -- Definition of literals does not include language-tagged strings properly -- closed
16:42:00 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/94
16:42:25 [AZ]: pfps: everything else in the semantics can be seen just as bugs
16:42:41 [ivan]: q+
16:42:45 [Guus]: zakim, who is here?
16:42:45 [Zakim]: On the phone I see pfps, Guus, gkellogg, SteveH, TallTed (muted), yvesr, GavinC, AZ, AndyS, Ivan (muted), Arnaud (muted), markus, Sandro, Souri, PatH
16:42:47 [Zakim]: On IRC I see Souri, PatH, markus, Arnaud, AZ, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS, pfps, gkellogg, Guus, TallTed, SteveH, ivan, gavinc, manu1, manu, yvesr, mischat, trackbot, sandro, ericP
16:43:10 [Zakim]: -AndyS
16:43:47 [AZ]: pfps: it just requires minor edits to make it a FPWD
16:44:13 [AZ]: Guus: <can't hear>
16:44:29 [Zakim]: -Guus
16:44:46 [Guus]: reviews can be done befpre html edits
16:44:59 [Guus]: review volunteers? at least two needed
16:45:26 [pfps]: can't be me
16:45:31 [ivan]: zakim, unmute me
16:45:31 [Zakim]: Ivan should no longer be muted
16:45:45 [pfps]: I suggest Richard, even though he is not on the call - he cares about this
16:46:00 [Zakim]: +Guus
16:46:58 [AZ]: Guus: we need reviewers for the document, even before the edits
16:47:03 [AZ]: AZ: I can review it
16:47:18 [AZ]: pfps: I would like Richard to do it
16:47:32 [Guus]: ACTION Guus to ask Richard to review Semantics
16:47:32 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-234 - Ask Richard to review Semantics [on Guus Schreiber - due 2013-03-06].
16:47:44 [AZ]: PatH: there is a section that is missing about the inference rules
16:47:57 [pfps]: the inference rules are informative, not normative
16:48:09 [AZ]: ivan: what's going on with the rules?
16:48:21 [AZ]: ... in which document do they go
16:48:53 [AZ]: PatH: we can put the rules in an informative section in Semantics
16:49:01 [pfps]: I vote for fewer documents
16:49:15 [pfps]: why are the rules needed for concepts?
16:49:31 [AZ]: ACTION AZ to review RDF 1.1 Semantics
16:49:32 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-235 - Review RDF 1.1 Semantics [on Antoine Zimmermann - due 2013-03-06].
16:49:49 [AZ]: Guus: we really need to go to LC for Concepts
16:49:58 [AZ]: ... for this we need a FPWD for Semantics
16:50:30 [AZ]: ivan: our extension request said we would have Concepts in LC by 1st march
16:50:56 [AZ]: PatH: I can do the changes before next telecon
16:51:49 [AZ]: Guus: in the mean time we can talk about Concepts to prepare it for LC
16:52:43 [Guus]: Reviewing period Semantics draft: 6-13 Mar
16:53:33 [pfps]: q+
16:53:35 [AZ]: PatH: there is a debate about D-entailemnt whether D should be seen as a datatype map
16:53:55 [AZ]: ... I see a solution that requires a small change to RDF Concepts
16:54:00 [ivan]: q-
16:54:08 [AZ]: Guus: let us get this to the agenda of next week
16:54:32 [Guus]: ack pfps
16:54:55 [AZ]: pfps: I believe Pat's solution is not viable
16:55:22 [AZ]: PatH: I know how to fix this, I have to make it more precise
16:55:34 [AZ]: +1 pfps
16:55:44 [pfps]: my problem is with a normative part of RDF Semantics referring to "web conventions"
16:56:10 [AZ]: topic:Concepts
16:56:21 [AZ]: Guus: there is an issue on bnode definition
16:56:50 [AZ]: PatH: Concepts sould define the notion of scope
16:57:01 [AZ]: ... scope of bnodes
16:59:43 [AZ]: <people looking in the ML archives>
16:59:59 [Guus]: ACTION Guus put spec of scope bnodes in Concepts on agenda for 6 Mar
16:59:59 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-236 - Put spec of scope bnodes in Concepts on agenda for 6 Mar [on Guus Schreiber - due 2013-03-06].
17:00:42 [pfps]: I can review Concepts, but I will reiterate my concerns that have not yet been addressed.
17:00:43 [AZ]: Guus: we need reviewers for the LC draft
17:01:14 [pfps]: There has been push back on some of them.
17:01:15 [AZ]: I can review too, to be sure my concerns have been addressed
17:01:23 [PatH]: i can review concepts.
17:02:01 [SteveH]: I'll be on vacation
17:02:21 [TallTed]: Zakim, unmute me
17:02:21 [Zakim]: TallTed should no longer be muted
17:02:51 [TallTed]: Zakim, mute me
17:02:51 [Zakim]: TallTed should now be muted
17:03:06 [Guus]: Peter and Ted are reviewer candidates
17:03:25 [AZ]: topic:JSON-LD
17:03:59 [AZ]: Guus: we must find reviewers for this one too
17:04:00 [Guus]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Feb/0189.html
17:05:15 [AZ]: PatH: I'll volunteer
17:05:20 [AZ]: sandro: I'll volunteer too
17:06:26 [AZ]: PatH: in fact, if it's now, I'll have to withdraw sorry
17:06:57 [AZ]: Guus: let us ask AndyS if he'd like to revieww it
17:07:06 [Guus]: ACTION Guus to ask Andy to review JSPN-LD syntax doc
17:07:06 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-237 - Ask Andy to review JSPN-LD syntax doc [on Guus Schreiber - due 2013-03-06].
17:07:26 [AZ]: s/JSPN-LD/JSON-LD/
17:08:23 [Zakim]: -Ivan
17:08:26 [AZ]: gkellogg: we have work to do on the API
17:08:28 [Zakim]: -Arnaud
17:08:29 [Zakim]: -Sandro
17:08:29 [Zakim]: -PatH
17:08:31 [AZ]: bye
17:08:32 [Zakim]: -markus
17:08:32 [Zakim]: -TallTed
17:08:33 [Zakim]: -gkellogg
17:08:34 [Zakim]: -GavinC
17:08:34 [Zakim]: -yvesr
17:08:35 [markus]: bye
17:08:36 [Zakim]: -SteveH
17:08:40 [Zakim]: -AZ
17:08:41 [Zakim]: -pfps
17:08:41 [Zakim]: -Guus
17:08:48 [Zakim]: -Souri
17:08:50 [Zakim]: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended
17:08:50 [Zakim]: Attendees were +1.408.530.aaaa, Guus, pfps, gkellogg, SteveH, TallTed, yvesr, GavinC, +081165aabb, AZ, AndyS, Ivan, Arnaud, markus, Sandro, Souri, PatH
17:09:41 [Guus]: Guus has joined #rdf-wg
17:09:50 [Guus]: trackbot, end meeting
17:09:50 [trackbot]: Zakim, list attendees
17:09:50 [Zakim]: sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
17:09:58 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:09:58 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/27-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot
17:09:59 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, bye
17:09:59 [RRSAgent]: I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/02/27-rdf-wg-actions.rdf :
17:09:59 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: sandro to learn about the w3c test suite license [1]
17:09:59 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/02/27-rdf-wg-irc#T16-25-05-1