IRC log of ua on 2013-02-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:45:45 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
17:45:45 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/02/14-ua-irc
17:45:47 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
17:45:47 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
17:45:49 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
17:45:49 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 15 minutes
17:45:50 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
17:45:50 [trackbot]
Date: 14 February 2013
17:46:14 [allanj]
rrsagent, make logs public
17:49:30 [allanj]
Agenda+ conformance use cases for conformance scenarios (extensions, mobile apps, etc)
17:49:32 [allanj]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013JanMar/0026.html
17:49:33 [allanj]
Agenda+ Eric Hansen review of UAAG2 20 Dec 2012 editor's draft
17:49:35 [allanj]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013JanMar/0015.htm
17:49:36 [allanj]
Agenda+ Response to HTML5 Accessibility Taskforce Bugs
17:49:38 [allanj]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013JanMar/0039.html
17:49:39 [allanj]
Agenda+ What is a User Agent - Jan, glossary musings
17:49:41 [allanj]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013JanMar/0045.html
17:49:42 [allanj]
Agenda+ Jeanne Creating tests for SC verification in Candidate Review.
17:55:30 [kford]
kford has joined #ua
17:57:59 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
17:58:05 [Zakim]
+ +1.609.734.aaaa
17:59:11 [EricHansen]
EricHansen has joined #ua
18:00:26 [Zakim]
+Jim_Allan
18:00:42 [Jan]
Jan has joined #ua
18:00:43 [allanj]
zakim, aaaa is really EricHansen
18:00:43 [Zakim]
+EricHansen; got it
18:00:49 [Jan]
zakim, code?
18:00:49 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Jan
18:00:59 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
18:01:26 [Jan]
zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jan
18:01:26 [Zakim]
+Jan; got it
18:02:43 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
18:02:48 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
18:03:00 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
18:03:47 [Zakim]
+Greg_Lowney
18:08:38 [allanj]
zakim, agenda?
18:08:38 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
18:08:40 [Zakim]
1. conformance use cases for conformance scenarios (extensions, mobile apps, etc) [from allanj]
18:08:40 [Zakim]
2. Eric Hansen review of UAAG2 20 Dec 2012 editor's draft [from allanj]
18:08:40 [Zakim]
3. Response to HTML5 Accessibility Taskforce Bugs [from allanj]
18:08:40 [Zakim]
4. What is a User Agent - Jan, glossary musings [from allanj]
18:08:40 [Zakim]
5. Jeanne Creating tests for SC verification in Candidate Review. [from allanj]
18:11:44 [KimPatch]
KimPatch has joined #ua
18:12:01 [Zakim]
+Kim_Patch
18:12:16 [allanj]
http://mothereffingtoolconfuser.com/
18:12:17 [Jan]
http://mothereffingtoolconfuser.com/
18:16:57 [allanj]
zakim, open Item 3
18:16:57 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Response to HTML5 Accessibility Taskforce Bugs" taken up [from allanj]
18:17:23 [allanj]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013JanMar/0039.html
18:18:30 [allanj]
scribe: allanj
18:18:47 [allanj]
Jim gives an overview of the bugs and response
18:19:49 [allanj]
regrets: simon
18:20:25 [allanj]
jan; no concerns
18:20:35 [allanj]
kim: no concerns
18:25:00 [allanj]
jeanne: no concerns
18:25:38 [allanj]
action: jim to send bug response report to html5 A11y taskforce
18:25:38 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-799 - Send bug response report to html5 A11y taskforce [on Jim Allan - due 2013-02-21].
18:25:56 [allanj]
zakim, close item 3
18:25:56 [Zakim]
agendum 3, Response to HTML5 Accessibility Taskforce Bugs, closed
18:25:58 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:25:58 [Zakim]
1. conformance use cases for conformance scenarios (extensions, mobile apps, etc) [from allanj]
18:26:29 [allanj]
zakim, close item 1
18:26:29 [Zakim]
agendum 1, conformance use cases for conformance scenarios (extensions, mobile apps, etc), closed
18:26:32 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:26:32 [Zakim]
2. Eric Hansen review of UAAG2 20 Dec 2012 editor's draft [from allanj]
18:29:37 [allanj]
zakim, open item 5
18:29:37 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Jeanne Creating tests for SC verification in Candidate Review." taken up [from allanj]
18:30:28 [allanj]
what the group will have to do after last call to get ready for candidate recommendation.
18:31:41 [allanj]
during CR, the spec is 'almost' complete. W3 says evaluate, send comments, begin implementation.
18:32:09 [allanj]
need to find 2 real world implementations, write a report and move to next level
18:32:26 [allanj]
need to think ahead to CR
18:33:10 [allanj]
1. decide how we structure the CR Exit Criteria. under what conditions is the spec successful.
18:33:37 [allanj]
the criteria must be approved by W3. the criteria and spec must be credible.
18:34:42 [allanj]
2. (big) need to write 'tests' for each SC across many products. we will use during CR.
18:35:51 [jeanne]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU/2012/ATAG20tests/ATAG2-10April2012PublicWD-Tests-rev20121119
18:37:14 [allanj]
a) define test procedures
18:38:02 [allanj]
b) things the tester needs to know before they begin testing
18:39:24 [allanj]
c) specific test for each SC. each test has an Assertion - for 1 item. if multiple items in an SC, each needs and Assertion
18:40:42 [Greg]
To clarify, an SC might have multiple tests even if it doesn't have sub-items.
18:41:03 [Greg]
(e.g. ATAG A.2.1.1.)
18:42:22 [allanj]
UAAG can use WCAG tests items for the purpose of testing UAAG SC. to ensure the UA does what it supposed to do based on WCAG code.
18:43:21 [Zakim]
-Greg_Lowney
18:43:58 [allanj]
we have a wiki page http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/Extensions_needed_for_Implementation_Examples
18:45:38 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
18:46:03 [kford]
zakim, microsoft is kford
18:46:03 [Zakim]
+kford; got it
18:46:36 [allanj]
if you find extensions, or implementations (mobile or otherwise) please put them here.
18:49:03 [jeanne]
WCAG CR exit criteria -> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/CR-WCAG20-20080430/#status
18:51:29 [allanj]
zakim, close item 5
18:51:29 [Zakim]
agendum 5, Jeanne Creating tests for SC verification in Candidate Review., closed
18:51:31 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:51:31 [Zakim]
2. Eric Hansen review of UAAG2 20 Dec 2012 editor's draft [from allanj]
18:52:07 [allanj]
Action: jim to create wiki page for SC testing criteria.
18:52:07 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-800 - Create wiki page for SC testing criteria. [on Jim Allan - due 2013-02-21].
18:53:21 [allanj]
topic: ReChartering
18:53:23 [allanj]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2010/uawg_charter
18:53:40 [allanj]
need to recharter by mid-march
18:54:12 [allanj]
need to create a new time line.
18:57:27 [kford]
q+
18:58:29 [allanj]
kf: we are more aspirational in our charter. need to more realistic
18:59:22 [allanj]
js: need to spell out all the steps necessary to meet milestones
19:00:32 [allanj]
jr: time to write tests. UA and AU are very different. They are not machine checkable. It takes longer.
19:02:56 [allanj]
ack kelly
19:02:58 [kford]
ack kford
19:04:53 [Zakim]
+ +1.425.381.aabb
19:07:11 [Zakim]
-kford
19:07:23 [allanj]
topic: glossary gardening
19:07:58 [allanj]
proposed: *operating system (OS)*: Software that supports a computer's basic functions, such as scheduling tasks, executing applications, and managing hardware and peripherals.
19:08:00 [allanj]
- Note: Many operating systems mediate communication between executing applications and assistive technology via a platform accessibility service.
19:08:59 [allanj]
UA talks about OS as part of platform.
19:12:40 [allanj]
Update: *platform*: The software environment(s) within which the authoring tool operates. Platforms provide a consistent operational environment on top of lower level software platforms or hardware. *Non-web-based* platforms include desktop *operating systems* (e.g. Linux, MacOS, Windows, etc.), mobile operating systems (e.g. Android, Blackberry, iOS, Windows Phone, etc.), and cross-OS...
19:12:41 [allanj]
...environments (e.g. Java). *Web-based* platforms are other user agents. User agents may also employ server-based processing, such as web content transformations, text-to-speech production, etc..
19:12:43 [allanj]
- Note 1: A user agent may include functionality hosted on multiple platforms (e.g. a browser running on the desktop may include server-based pre-processing and web-based documentation).
19:12:44 [allanj]
- Note 2: Accessibility guidelines for developers exist for many platforms.
19:12:57 [allanj]
[REMOVE] operating environment --> platform
19:14:23 [allanj]
updated definition of user agent from Jan. incorporating comments from Greg.
19:15:04 [allanj]
-----------------
19:15:09 [allanj]
[UPDATE] *user agent*: Software that retrieves, renders and facilitates end-user interaction with Web content. If the software only performs these functions for time-based media, then the software is typically referred to as a *media player*, otherwise, the more general designation *browser* is used. UAAG 2.0 identifies several user agent architectures:
19:15:11 [allanj]
- *Stand-alone*: These user agents run on non-Web platforms (operating systems and cross-OS platforms, such as Java) and perform content retrieval, rendering and end-user interaction facilitation themselves. (e.g., Firefox, IE, Chrome, Opera).
19:15:12 [allanj]
- *Embedded*: These user agents "plug-in" to stand-alone user agents in order to rendering and facilitate end-user interaction for content types (e.g., multimedia), that the stand-alone user agent is not able to. Embedded user agents establish direct connections with the platform (e.g. communication via platform accessibility services).
19:15:14 [allanj]
- *Web-based*: These user agents operate by (a) transforming the web content into a technology that the stand-alone (or embedded) user agent can render and (b) injecting the user agent's own user interface functionality into the content to be rendered.
19:15:15 [allanj]
- *Webview Component*: These user agents are used to package web content into non-web-based applications, especially on mobile platforms. *If the finished application is used to retrieves, renders and facilitates end-user interaction with Web content of the end-users choosing, then the application should be considered a stand-alone user agent. If the finished application only renders a...
19:15:17 [allanj]
...constrained set of content specified by the developer, then the application should not be considered a user agent.*
19:15:18 [allanj]
Note 1: Any of these user agent architectures may also employ server-based processing, such as web content transformations, text-to-speech production, etc.
19:15:20 [allanj]
Note 2: User agents may also include *authoring tool* features. (see "Relationship to the Authoring Tool Accessibility Guidelines (ATAG) 2.0" http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2013/ED-UAAG20-20130108/#intro-atag)
19:18:33 [allanj]
[ADD] User agent extensions (add-ins): Software installed into a user agent that has an extension feature in order to modify the behavior of the user agent. Two common capabilities for user agent extensions are the ability to *modify the content* before the user agent renders it (e.g., to add highlights if certain types of alternative content are present) and to *modify the user agent's own...
19:18:34 [allanj]
...user interface * (e.g. add a headings view).
19:20:21 [allanj]
jr: AA app is data driven, some data structure. comes into the app, gets rendered. puts it on the screen. there is a big difference between doing the simple data rendering, and the user telling the UA where to go to get information.
19:20:30 [allanj]
... makes our work easier.
19:20:47 [allanj]
js: dividing line is not clear. understand the concern.
19:21:07 [allanj]
user is selecting the data by choosing the app to get specific data
19:21:26 [allanj]
or user following a link,
19:21:57 [allanj]
jr: difference between user choosing versus author choosing.
19:22:17 [allanj]
AA app, is a data view widget.
19:23:00 [allanj]
eh: distinction not very sharp.
19:23:40 [jeanne]
scribe: jeanne
19:24:08 [jeanne]
JA: it will be hard to write tests for apps. Apps are more dependent on the hardware platform
19:24:26 [jeanne]
JR: These are also covered by WCAG
19:25:16 [jeanne]
s/Apps are more dependent on the hardware platform/Apps are more dependent on the hardware platform. Should we fail all Android apps because it doesn't have a zoom?
19:27:27 [allanj]
[add] second definition of user agent:
19:27:28 [allanj]
2. The software that is the subject of the conformance claim. This the meaning of “user agent” as referred to in success criteria.
19:28:53 [jeanne]
scribe: allanj
19:30:30 [allanj]
eh: UA vs app, and what are you evaluating to make a conformance claim. if you evaluate something against the UAAG20 guidelines then it is a UA
19:32:25 [allanj]
jr: under user extensions. the UA has the extension feature. something plugs into the extension feature.
19:33:08 [allanj]
eh: wanted to keep the boundary between UA and the extension. is an extension part of the UA or not.
19:35:59 [allanj]
jr: if the user agent has a feature that allows extension. then thing that use that feature are extensions. There are base user agents. extensions are separate from the borwser.
19:36:50 [allanj]
ISSUE: further discussion needed on mobile apps being UAs or not. Are they covered totally by WCAG
19:36:51 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-97 - Further discussion needed on mobile apps being UAs or not. Are they covered totally by WCAG; please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/97/edit>.
19:37:48 [allanj]
eh: time on glossary is very important.
19:37:58 [allanj]
... thanks to Jan for the efforts.
19:40:38 [Zakim]
- +1.425.381.aabb
19:40:41 [Zakim]
-Kim_Patch
19:40:44 [Zakim]
-EricHansen
19:40:45 [Zakim]
-Jan
19:40:46 [Zakim]
-Jim_Allan
19:40:46 [Zakim]
-Jeanne
19:40:48 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
19:40:48 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.609.734.aaaa, Jim_Allan, EricHansen, Jan, Jeanne, Greg_Lowney, Kim_Patch, kford, +1.425.381.aabb
19:42:41 [jeanne]
action: Jeanne to add Jan's proposal on glossary cleanup with edits from Eric (editor's discretion)
19:42:41 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-801 - Add Jan's proposal on glossary cleanup with edits from Eric (editor's discretion) [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2013-02-21].
19:42:56 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:42:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/14-ua-minutes.html jeanne
19:56:26 [allanj]
close action-799
19:56:26 [trackbot]
Closed ACTION-799 Send bug response report to html5 A11y taskforce.
20:08:15 [allanj]
close Action-800
20:08:15 [trackbot]
Closed ACTION-800 Create wiki page for SC testing criteria..
20:08:39 [allanj]
rrsagent, make minutes
20:08:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/14-ua-minutes.html allanj
20:08:49 [allanj]
zakim, please part
20:08:49 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
20:10:17 [allanj]
chair: JimAllan, KellyFord
20:11:20 [allanj]
rrsagent, make minutes
20:11:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/14-ua-minutes.html allanj
20:11:40 [allanj]
rrsagent, please part
20:11:40 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/02/14-ua-actions.rdf :
20:11:40 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jim to send bug response report to html5 A11y taskforce [1]
20:11:40 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/02/14-ua-irc#T18-25-38
20:11:40 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jim to create wiki page for SC testing criteria. [2]
20:11:40 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/02/14-ua-irc#T18-52-07
20:11:40 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jeanne to add Jan's proposal on glossary cleanup with edits from Eric (editor's discretion) [3]
20:11:40 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/02/14-ua-irc#T19-42-41