16:03:41 RRSAgent has joined #html-media
16:03:41 logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/01/29-html-media-irc
16:03:51 MikeSmith has joined #html-media
16:03:51 Zakim has joined #html-media
16:04:04 zakim, who is on the call?
16:04:05 sorry, paulc, I don't know what conference this is
16:04:05 On IRC I see MikeSmith, RRSAgent, ddorwin, kstreeter, Mick_Hakobyan, Michael_Thornburgh, pal, joesteele_, paulc, trackbot
16:04:30 zakim, this will be HTML5 Media Extensions
16:04:30 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, joesteele_
16:04:55 zakim, this will be Media Source Extensions
16:04:55 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, joesteele_
16:05:01 adrianba has joined #html-media
16:05:10 zakim, code?
16:05:11 sorry, adrianba, I don't know what conference this is
16:05:18 63342
16:05:25 is the code adrain
16:05:29 adrian
16:05:45 zakim, this is html_wg
16:05:46 ok, adrianba; that matches HTML_WG()11:00AM
16:05:49 trackbot, start meeting
16:05:51 RRSAgent, make logs public
16:05:53 Zakim, this will be 63342
16:05:53 ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()11:00AM scheduled to start 5 minutes ago
16:05:54 Meeting: HTML Media Task Force Teleconference
16:05:54 Date: 29 January 2013
16:06:38 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2013Jan/0058.html
16:06:42 zakim, who is on the phone?
16:06:42 I notice HTML_WG()11:00AM has restarted
16:06:44 On the phone I see +1.831.457.aaaa, pal, +1.818.777.aabb, KevinStreeter, joesteele, ddorwin, [Microsoft], Aaron_Colwell, +1.425.829.aadd, [Microsoft.a]
16:06:52 zakim, [Microsoft.a] is me
16:06:52 +adrianba; got it
16:06:56 scribenick: joesteele
16:06:59 +[Microsoft.a]
16:07:13 zakim, [Microsoft] has paulc
16:07:13 +paulc; got it
16:07:19 zakim, [Microsoft.a] is johnsim
16:07:19 +johnsim; got it
16:07:21 FYI, MSE FPWD has been published http://www.w3.org/TR
16:07:22 zakim, [1.425.829.aadd] is me
16:07:22 sorry, Mick_Hakobyan, I do not recognize a party named '[1.425.829.aadd]'
16:07:25 zakim, who is on the phone?
16:07:25 On the phone I see +1.831.457.aaaa, pal, +1.818.777.aabb, KevinStreeter, joesteele, ddorwin, [Microsoft], Aaron_Colwell, +1.425.829.aadd, adrianba, johnsim
16:07:29 [Microsoft] has paulc
16:07:39 +Dave_Mays
16:07:41 Michael_Thornburgh is 831
16:07:43 http://www.w3.org/News/2013#entry-9697
16:08:04 acolwell has joined #html-media
16:08:07 zakim, [1.425.829] is me
16:08:07 sorry, Mick_Hakobyan, I do not recognize a party named '[1.425.829]'
16:08:10 congrats to everybody on the TF
16:08:11 zakim, +1.831.457.aaaa is Michael_Thornburgh
16:08:11 +Michael_Thornburgh; got it
16:08:13 +[Microsoft.a]
16:08:13 zakim, aadd is Michael_Thornburgh
16:08:14 zakim, Michael_Thornburgh is aaaa
16:08:14 +Michael_Thornburgh; got it
16:08:14 +aaaa; got it
16:08:19 zakim Michael_Thornburgh is Mick_Hakobyan
16:08:25 zakim, aadd is me
16:08:25 sorry, Mick_Hakobyan, I do not recognize a party named 'aadd'
16:08:29 davidmays has joined #html-media
16:08:31 zakim, who is on the phone?
16:08:31 On the phone I see aaaa, pal, +1.818.777.aabb, KevinStreeter, joesteele, ddorwin, [Microsoft], Aaron_Colwell, Michael_Thornburgh.a, adrianba, johnsim, Dave_Mays, [Microsoft.a]
16:08:33 zakim, [aadd] is me
16:08:35 [Microsoft] has paulc
16:08:35 sorry, Mick_Hakobyan, I do not recognize a party named '[aadd]'
16:08:36 chair: paulc
16:08:54 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2013Jan/0058.html
16:09:09 zakim, who is on the call?
16:09:09 On the phone I see aaaa, pal, +1.818.777.aabb, KevinStreeter, joesteele, ddorwin, [Microsoft], Aaron_Colwell, Michael_Thornburgh.a, adrianba, johnsim, Dave_Mays, [Microsoft.a]
16:09:12 [Microsoft] has paulc
16:09:14 TOPIC: New folks
16:09:18 jdsmith has joined #html-media
16:09:47 zakim, aaaa is Mick_Hakobyan
16:09:47 +Mick_Hakobyan; got it
16:09:55 johnsim has joined #html-media
16:10:09 zakim, who is on the phone?
16:10:09 On the phone I see Mick_Hakobyan, pal, +1.818.777.aabb, KevinStreeter, joesteele, ddorwin, [Microsoft], Aaron_Colwell, Michael_Thornburgh.a, adrianba, johnsim, Dave_Mays,
16:10:12 ... [Microsoft.a]
16:10:12 [Microsoft] has paulc
16:10:34 zakim, [Microsoft.a] is jdsmith
16:10:34 +jdsmith; got it
16:10:43 aabb in Bill Mandel
16:11:02 Zakim, who is here?
16:11:02 On the phone I see Mick_Hakobyan, pal, +1.818.777.aabb, KevinStreeter, joesteele, ddorwin, [Microsoft], Aaron_Colwell, Michael_Thornburgh.a, adrianba, johnsim, Dave_Mays, jdsmith
16:11:04 i think adrianab might have confused zakim about my phone number
16:11:06 [Microsoft] has paulc
16:11:06 On IRC I see johnsim, jdsmith, davidmays, acolwell, adrianba, Zakim, MikeSmith, RRSAgent, ddorwin, kstreeter, Mick_Hakobyan, Michael_Thornburgh, pal, joesteele_, paulc, trackbot
16:11:40 kstreeter: introducing Michael Thornburg
16:12:31 Michael_Thornburg: I know a good bit about the HTTP streaming stuff we will be doing, AppendBytes etc.
16:12:43 topic: previous minutes
16:12:58 links above
16:13:03 topic: ACTION items
16:13:42 switching agenda -- no MSE aciton items open
16:13:48 TOPIC: baseline docs
16:13:57 s/aciton/action/
16:14:05 Last update Jan 18th
16:14:18 Editor's draft: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/media-source/media-source.html
16:14:32 paulc: aaron anything to say here?
16:14:45 acolwell: let me look
16:15:17 acolwell: last update was to remove the SetTrackInfo and GetSourceBuffer and replace with properties
16:15:17 https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/rev/fd2a58eec443
16:15:31 paulc: and this is not in the FPWD
16:15:45 topic: Update on MSE FPWD
16:15:57 FPWD: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/media-source/media-source-fpwd.html
16:16:09 http://www.w3.org/TR/media-source/
16:16:10 paulc: should be published today
16:16:34 paulc: not on the news page yet
16:16:50 BillMandel has joined #html-media
16:16:51 paulc: congratulations everyone
16:17:05 paulc: especially editors
16:17:32 paulc: we have a FPWD and an editors draft and about 13 bugs
16:18:01 paulc: link to bug search, copied the bugs into the agenda as well
16:18:07 Current bugs: http://tinyurl.com/6pdnzej
16:18:29 topic: outstanding bugs
16:18:47 paulc: bugs listed in increasing order
16:19:12 happy to describe the new ones i filed
16:19:13 paulc: do we want to step through the new bugs now for explanation?
16:19:34 paulc: let's do that -- 20760
16:19:36 Bug 20760: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20760
16:20:15 adrianba: we are trying to provide information that apps can use to determine what the right bitrate is ...
16:20:38 ... most of the scenarios we have talked about so ffar are about app determining available capacity
16:20:56 ... but there isn't goo dinformation for apps to know when video has too high a bitrate
16:20:57 ...
16:21:18 ... for example on a low power device can't play full video due to hardware
16:21:35 q+
16:21:40 ... apps can tell whether jitter or frames are being dropped and decide whether tp step down quality
16:21:50 paulc: proposing a video tag add?
16:22:08 adrianba: yes, bug on HTML5 for this in the wiki
16:22:16 ... proposing a subset of that right now
16:22:32 ... prefer to keep media source dependant on HTML5 rather than 5.1
16:22:49 ... if in the future this gets adopted that would be fine to link to as well
16:23:02 paulc: found bug 13299 at the top of the wiki -- is that it?
16:23:10 adrianba: no the bug is linked from my bug
16:23:22 paulc: ah -- 14970
16:23:37 paulc: video expose statistics for tracking playback quality
16:23:48 paulc; moved to 5.1
16:23:58 HTML5 bug: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14970
16:24:02 s/paulc;/paulc:/
16:24:18 paulc: this would be the first extension to 5.0 directly?
16:24:41 adrianba: we had a change before, may have been eliminated
16:24:58 q?
16:25:05 ack acol
16:25:10 acolwell: a little concern about extending the scope
16:25:22 ... like to see this in a different extension spec because it is about metrics
16:25:32 ... we should continue the ealier metrics discussions
16:25:50 ... not required for media source itself -- don't want to lose focus
16:25:57 ack acolwell
16:26:11 adrianba: previous discussion is the bug I linked to
16:26:27 ... I understand the concern, but makes sense because this is one of the primary use cases
16:26:36 .. could be added as an appendix maybe
16:26:46 .. adding an extension spec for this seems heavy weight
16:26:54 q+
16:27:07 acolwell: the other discussion seemed to fizzle out, would hate for this to bypass that
16:27:23 adrianba: maybe more people are paying attention now, lots of comments
16:27:41 acolwell: if people want to implement metrics but not media source, how do they do it?
16:28:25 paulc: suggest if aaron is right, responding to the new bug might geenrate more discussion
16:28:45 acolwell: but should be no new features in HTML5 -- must be in an extension spec
16:28:53 davidmays has left #html-media
16:28:55 paulc: but MSE is an extension spec?
16:29:05 acolwell: but this is not critical to MSE
16:29:18 -Dave_Mays
16:29:39 paulc: suggest you explain your position on the bug itself
16:30:01 paulc: 8 users on that bug
16:30:07 acolwell: ok
16:30:19 q?
16:30:30 ack dd
16:30:32 I agree there are issues to be solved here, but I think it should presented as a separate topic so that they can be addressed for all HTMLMediaElement uses. Some people may not be paying attention to public-html-media since they assume it is just MSE and EME. I also think we should solve the general metrics and capability detection issues, not just the ones applicable to MSE. I also worry about bogging down the MSE discussion.
16:30:33 ack ddorwin
16:30:59 ddorwin: agree with aaron, but think there are folks who would be interested but might not be paying attention
16:31:22 paulc: no reason why you can't cross-post to public-html as well
16:31:33 paulc: moving to 20759
16:31:49 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20759
16:32:08 adrianba: issue with way bytes are appended
16:32:21 ... check to see that the array you are appending to is not zero-length
16:32:35 ... potentially need to change the ready state but you haven't queued any eventd
16:32:51 .. risk that apps would try to append a 0-length buffer if they thought they had data
16:33:00 ... would be wiaitng for an event that never comes
16:33:12 ... or they have to check the length before they append
16:33:33 ... either it should throw an exception or it should just follow the normal pattern
16:34:13 acolwell: will fix that -- just an oversight
16:34:23 ... not throwing an exception is probbly easier on the web dev
16:34:40 paulc: no more discussion?
16:34:57 paulc: next is 20758
16:35:11 adrianba: looking at how to make remove work
16:35:11 Bug 20758: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20758 remove should be asynch
16:35:20 ... calling remove when in append state seems like a problem
16:35:28 ... processing is similar to append
16:35:44 ... buffer is in an uncertain state, throw the same events
16:36:00 ... proposal to append or remove but not both at same time
16:36:11 ... during the operation can only be doing that one operation
16:36:28 acolwell: have to think about it a bit, nervous to add more asynchronoy
16:36:39 ... hiding the removal in the background might be a problem
16:36:56 adrianba: you have to block the UI threa while you remove, could be lengthy
16:37:15 acolwell: from the web apps point of view, can only observer via the buffered?
16:37:31 acolwell: can defer the removal and reflect what the new buffered info would be
16:37:48 adrianba: you have to do that anyway, but this makes it more symmetric
16:38:11 acolwell: removing multiple ranges you would have to maintain queues, maintain the asynchrony, could be painful
16:38:13 q+
16:38:18 paulc: the price of not blocking
16:38:42 mick: like this approach -- when little memory is available on device would like the remove to complete first
16:38:58 paulc: next bug 20714
16:39:01 Bug 20714: timestampOffset in live case - https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20714
16:39:39 paulc: filed by cyril with an attachment, notes from today
16:39:56 paulc: dialog going on in bug, anyone on the call want to respond
16:40:38 adrianba: question is if you have a live presentation, how do you deal with the timestamps on the media being relative to the beginning of the live pres. not relative to when you joined
16:41:00 ... potentially browser UI will be wrong, no way to get back to earlier bits
16:41:12 ... should there be a way to indicate to UA what ranges to display?
16:41:30 ... my suggestion is that apps could draw the custom UI they want
16:41:37 .. possible with details of the app itself
16:41:44 .. this could be postponed to a future release
16:41:58 ... but this is a problem he is seeing now
16:42:17 adrianba: problem with native controls?
16:42:33 ... write your own controls
16:42:43 ack Mick_Hakobyan
16:43:00 acolwell: problem exists already with live media sources
16:43:27 s/probbly/probably/
16:43:49 adrianba: agree -- that is my position is well
16:44:21 adrianba: my response was that we should keep the first version simple and watch the usage, might be a candidate for later based on usage
16:44:43 adrianba: don't want to build into the browser yet, need implementation experience
16:45:01 acolwell: the live demos I have done I like the flexibility of controlling this in the app
16:45:24 paulc: please put your opinions on the bug
16:45:30 paulc: moving to 18615
16:45:36 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18615
16:45:40 s/mick:/Mick_Hakobyan:/
16:46:01 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2013Jan/0021.html
16:46:02 paulc: link to discussion item in the agenda on from the 15th
16:46:10 paulc: what's the status?
16:46:12 q+
16:46:21 acolwell: looking
16:46:33 acolwell: planning on adding the described algorithm
16:46:39 ... have text waiting
16:46:53 ... adrians comment on bug is incompatible with my changes
16:46:53 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18615#c7
16:47:35 adrianba: think we are proposing something that is how vide elements work today either audio or video data exist
16:47:45 ... otherwise you store data? (please correct)
16:47:45 q+
16:48:02 acolwell: how does it work if the audio/video are de-multiplexed?
16:48:20 ... could start playing and then later when content gets appended jst start playing - no way to stop
16:48:40 adrianba: not the expert but thinking out loud
16:49:07 ... maybe its different if you are currently stalled
16:49:17 acolwell: I will comment on the bug and we can continue from there
16:49:39 paulc: end of the nominated list in the agenda
16:49:53 paulc: now we are into the remaining bugs
16:49:57 q?
16:49:59 q-
16:50:08 paulc: one more that we could discuss today:
16:50:18 ack adrianba
16:50:46 pal: happy to discuss 18165
16:51:01 ... html media element buffered uses integers in seconds
16:51:13 ... how are those ranges computed when ranges are not aligned on seconds?
16:51:26 acolwell: time ranges are doubles
16:51:29 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/embedded-content-0.html#timeranges
16:51:34