16:00:05 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pointerevents
16:00:05 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/01/08-pointerevents-irc
16:00:11 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make log public
16:00:19 <ArtB> Scribe: Art
16:00:29 <ArtB> ScribeNick: ArtB
16:00:36 <ArtB> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013JanMar/0001.html
16:00:44 <ArtB> Date: 08 January 2013
16:00:51 <ArtB> Chair: Art
16:00:53 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:00:56 <ArtB> Meeting: Pointer Events WG Voice Conference
16:01:16 <rbyers> rbyers has joined #pointerevents
16:01:35 <ArtB> Present: Art_Barstow, Rick_Byers, Jacob_Rossi
16:01:37 <Cathy> Cathy has joined #pointerevents
16:02:34 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
16:02:49 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:02:50 <ArtB> Present+ Doug_Schepers
16:02:51 <rbyers> Art, yep looking at it now
16:02:53 <rbyers> (again)
16:03:01 <ArtB> Present+ Olli_Pettay
16:03:08 <smaug> Zakim,  [IPcaller] is Olli_Pettay
16:03:09 <Zakim> +Olli_Pettay; got it
16:03:19 <smaug> Zakim, nick smaug is Olli_Pettay
16:03:20 <Zakim> ok, smaug, I now associate you with Olli_Pettay
16:03:33 <rbyers> Zakim, nick rbyers is Rick_Byers
16:03:33 <Zakim> ok, rbyers, I now associate you with Rick_Byers
16:03:49 <ArtB> Topic: Getting started
16:04:05 <ArtB> AB: we need a Scribe for today's meeting
16:04:23 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
16:04:26 <ArtB> ScribeNick: rbyers
16:04:37 <ArtB> Present+ Asir_Vedamuthu
16:04:40 <ArtB> Scribe: Rick
16:04:46 <ArtB> AB: any change requests for today's draft agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013JanMar/0001.html?
16:05:05 <Zakim> + +1.781.266.aabb
16:05:11 <Cathy> zakim, aabb is me
16:05:11 <Zakim> +Cathy; got it
16:05:19 <Cathy> Present+ Cathy_Chan
16:05:25 <rbyers> Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:05:25 <Zakim> On the phone I see Rick_Byers, Art_Barstow, [Microsoft], Doug_Schepers, Olli_Pettay, [Microsoft.a], Cathy
16:05:26 <ArtB> Asir: can we get an update from Rick re implementation
16:05:36 <ArtB> AB: yes, let's add that to AoB
16:05:59 <jrossi> jrossi has joined #pointerevents
16:06:36 <rbyers> Topic: Point events bug
16:06:51 <rbyers> Topic: pointer events bugs
16:07:17 <rbyers> Jacob: server is redirecting from http to https, causing mixed content issues
16:07:55 <rbyers> Doug: knew that they were switching over, not sure why it's a problem
16:08:00 <rbyers> Jacob: doesn't render in Chrome, get warning in IE
16:08:31 <rbyers> Doug: please summarize issues in e-mail and send it to me
16:08:32 <rbyers> Jacob: ok
16:08:37 <ArtB> ACTION: Jacob send Doug an email that explains the https issues
16:08:38 <trackbot> Created ACTION-13 - Send Doug an email that explains the https issues [on Jacob Rossi - due 2013-01-15].
16:08:46 <rbyers> Rick: yes I see this too.  I used to explicitly switch back to http, but now that doesn't work.
16:08:56 <jrossi> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20222
16:09:01 <rbyers> Topic: bug 20222 - Pointer events explicitly disallow compatbility with hover menus used by many web sites
16:10:32 <asir> asir has joined #pointerevents
16:11:42 <smaug> shepazu: thanks
16:11:58 <rbyers> This spec text:
16:11:59 <rbyers> "For input devices that do not support hover, a user agent must also fire a pointerout event after firing the pointerup event."
16:12:00 <ArtB> [ Rick expands on Bug 20222; citing techcrunch as an example with it's More widget ]
16:12:52 <rbyers> Rick: should we really restrict implementations from supporting such sites
16:13:00 <rbyers> Rick: what was the thinking in IE?
16:13:22 <rbyers> Jacob: instead of loosening restrictions, would like to see us converge - on whats best for the web
16:15:09 <ArtB> scribenick: ArtB
16:15:21 <ArtB> Rick: don't want to break css hover
16:15:32 <ArtB> … we trigger css hover and active
16:15:37 <ArtB> … we are exploring some options
16:15:54 <ArtB> … when you touch somewhere, move the mouse and trigger events
16:16:24 <ArtB> … we aren't happy with current impl
16:16:37 <ArtB> … and need to make some changes
16:17:23 <ArtB> Jacob: agree we need to do some work here
16:17:28 <jrossi> http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/ie/jj583807.aspx
16:17:50 <ArtB> … aria attribute has poppup
16:18:09 <ArtB> … added a behavior that sticks hover and not fire mouseout when user taps
16:18:24 <ArtB> … we can try to get sites to add haspopup
16:18:37 <ArtB> … but that is hard to do (scaling issue)
16:18:55 <ArtB> Jacob: a solution that requires sites to change just doesn't work
16:19:21 <ArtB> s/Jacob: a solution/Rick: a solution/
16:19:40 <ArtB> Jacob: need some type of gesture to "stick hover"
16:20:00 <ArtB> … not crazy about what we shipped so looking at improving what we have done
16:20:12 <ArtB> … I can chat with my group about the design Rick described
16:20:31 <ArtB> Rick: we are experimenting (not finished)
16:20:31 <rbyers> Here's a bug tracking the work we want to do in chrome for this: https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=153784
16:21:04 <ArtB> Rick: the list of events we were thinking about using is not in this bug
16:21:33 <ArtB> Jacob: I think we need to figure out how to fix this problem
16:21:44 <ArtB> … I don't want the spec to just say "do what you want"
16:21:58 <ArtB> … We need to determine what is best for the web and then Spec It
16:22:13 <ArtB> … We don't see a magic bullet here
16:22:29 <ArtB> … Olli - do you have some input on this bug?
16:22:40 <ArtB> Olli: I think FF behaves the same way as WebKit
16:22:50 <ArtB> Jacob: but is Webkit in flux here?
16:23:03 <ArtB> Rick: what I described has not been checked in
16:23:35 <ArtB> Olli: I'll need to check FF; there have been some changes to hover and link
16:23:58 <ArtB> Jacob: would like to get Mozilla's input on this
16:24:13 <ArtB> Olli: we need to be practical and minimize web sites that break
16:24:32 <ArtB> … agree we need to do something
16:24:47 <ArtB> Rick: are you getting a lot of complaints Jacob?
16:24:56 <ArtB> Jacob: we have received some feedback
16:25:02 <Zakim> +Matt_Brubeck
16:25:14 <mbrubeck> Zakim, I am Matt_Brubeck
16:25:14 <Zakim> ok, mbrubeck, I now associate you with Matt_Brubeck
16:25:15 <ArtB> … and we need to do something
16:25:22 <ArtB> Present+ Matt_Brubeck
16:25:53 <ArtB> Jacob: instead of using the attribute, some move their menus to click-based solutions
16:26:06 <ArtB> … agree it is kinda' the tail of the Web
16:26:31 <ArtB> Rick: I like that you can give sites guidance that is clean and simple
16:27:04 <ArtB> … I think you guys have found a good tradeoff with pointerevents
16:27:27 <ArtB> Jacob: the attribute is only used on menus
16:27:35 <ArtB> … (I can give more info on the list)
16:27:51 <rbyers> Another example: http://www.sky.fm/
16:27:59 <rbyers> hover menu here is so long you need to be able to scroll when it's up
16:28:04 <ArtB> Rick: there are some other corner cases like huge hover areas/text
16:28:27 <rbyers> but we're ok not supporting such sites with touch
16:28:45 <ArtB> Jacob: think we need more discussion on the list
16:29:27 <ArtB> … need to be careful about making some scenarios work and breaking others
16:30:35 <ArtB> Rick: I'll talk to our group about what IE is doing
16:31:10 <ArtB> … what is the status of ARIA?
16:31:23 <ArtB> Jacob: spec is done but implementation is still a WIP
16:31:40 <ArtB> Rick: perhaps we need to define a new attribute
16:31:45 <ArtB> … re hove effect
16:31:56 <ArtB> s/re hove effect/re hover effect/
16:32:15 <ArtB> … Agree we need to focus on long-term and what's best for the Web
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16:32:37 <ArtB> Jacob: agree; that section in the spec is Optional
16:33:43 <jrossi> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20236
16:33:43 <ArtB> [ See bug 20222 for more context from Rick ]
16:33:56 <rbyers> scribenick: rbyers
16:34:25 <rbyers> Topic: bug 20236 - 3.1.1.1 button value -1 isn't possible
16:34:34 <rbyers> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20236
16:34:47 <rbyers> Jacob: Talked to Travis, DOM3 event editor about this
16:35:01 <jrossi> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20311
16:35:05 <rbyers> … going to ask WebApps folks to change from unsigned to signed
16:35:18 <rbyers> Topic: Bug 20311 - Clarify touch-action is only looked at during pointerdown
16:35:31 <rbyers> Jacob: saw Rick's comments saying he liked the proposed text
16:35:33 <jrossi> When a user touches an element, that element's -ms-touch-action property determines the default touch behaviors permitted for that contact, like panning or zooming. The touch behavior is then performed on the nearest ancestor element that is capable of that behavior, unless an intermediate ancestor element specifies that the behavior is not permitted.
16:35:51 <rbyers> … anyone else? Like this?  Does it clarify it sufficiently or more detailed needed?
16:35:59 <rbyers> … (and yes, -ms is a typo)
16:36:20 <asir> s/ms-touch-action/touch-action/
16:36:35 <rbyers> … action applies to nearest ancestor - so it's sort of a strange inheritance
16:36:40 <rbyers> … but it's pretty straight forward
16:36:47 <asir> s/-ms-touch-action/touch-action/
16:37:09 <rbyers> Rick: IE10 implementation is really this simple?
16:37:14 <ArtB> ACTION: barstow notify the CSS WG after the next WD of Pointer Events is published
16:37:14 <trackbot> Created ACTION-14 - Notify the CSS WG after the next WD of Pointer Events is published [on Arthur Barstow - due 2013-01-15].
16:37:20 <rbyers> Jacob: for the most case yes, might be a couple edge cases
16:38:08 <rbyers> … in Win8 there are different default actions depending on the context (new style app or desktop)
16:38:16 <rbyers> … eg. flicking left/right to navigate
16:38:49 <rbyers> … So I propose adding this text, if anyone has additional concerns please post to the list
16:39:18 <rbyers> Art: Let's wait for additional feedback until the end of the week, then make the proposed change
16:39:42 <rbyers> Rick: I'll ping Daniel to see if he's happy
16:40:16 <rbyers> topic: Bug 20217 - Expand touch-action property to include more of the values implemented by IE?
16:40:24 <jrossi> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20217
16:40:31 <rbyers> Jacob: Nothing new to share yet, but everyone I need to talk to is now back - hoping to get some traction on this soon
16:41:13 <rbyers> Summary: 20311 probably has consensus, so there are three bugs remaining
16:41:16 <rbyers> Topic: AoB
16:41:32 <rbyers> Art: should we publish a new working draft sometime soon?
16:41:38 <rbyers> … one of our values was to publish often
16:41:40 <asir> zakim, unmute me
16:41:40 <Zakim> sorry, asir, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
16:41:42 <rbyers> Jacob: think it's a good thing
16:41:50 <asir> zakim, [Microsoft] is me
16:41:50 <Zakim> +asir; got it
16:41:56 <asir> zakim, unmute me
16:41:56 <Zakim> asir was not muted, asir
16:42:08 <rbyers> … how close do we think we are to last call?
16:43:31 <rbyers> Rick: I expect we'll come up with questions/issues as another implementation (firefox or WebKit) works to become feature complete
16:43:36 <rbyers> … what is the bar for last call?
16:43:54 <rbyers> Doug: last call is feature complete, group agrees on content of spec, want wider review (eg. web apps)
16:44:16 <rbyers> … review length period is a minimum of 3 weeks, can be as long as we want
16:44:29 <rbyers> … at the end, we make a decision about making a call for implementation (CR)
16:44:59 <rbyers> … then we decide what the criteria is, the minimal being 2 implementations implementing each feature
16:45:04 <rbyers> … so we can publish last call with zero implementations
16:45:23 <rbyers> … and expect implementations to occur afterwards
16:45:50 <rbyers> … To me it feels like there would be value to getting to last call sooner (not waiting for implementations), then a longer review period
16:46:03 <rbyers> … of course we might start implementation, find out we have bugs, go back to last call, etc.
16:46:20 <rbyers> Doug: that's a good summary
16:46:38 <rbyers> Jacob: we've made some good changes, if we want to publish a working draft then I'm happy to do it
16:46:52 <rbyers> … we should close on the touch-action issue before (bug 20217) before last call
16:46:59 <rbyers> … but would like to do it sooner rather than later
16:47:48 <ArtB> s/Doug: last call/Art: last call/
16:51:22 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:51:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/01/08-pointerevents-minutes.html ArtB
16:51:43 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make log Public
16:52:32 <asir> zakim, unmute me
16:52:32 <Zakim> asir was not muted, asir
16:53:20 <rbyers> Zakim, unmute [Microsoft.a]
16:53:20 <Zakim> [Microsoft.a] should no longer be muted
16:53:51 <rbyers> Jacob: do we want to do a "heart beat draft" later this week after the changes we've discussed?
16:54:04 <rbyers> Art: if we do, I'll make sure to ask the CSS WG for feedback
16:54:27 <rbyers> Art: any other feedback?
16:54:41 <rbyers> … realistically, would be published as technical report 1/14 or 1/16 at the earliest
16:54:53 <rbyers> Doug: would love to publish very frequently
16:54:57 <rbyers> Art: yes, sends a good signal
16:55:21 <rbyers> Jacob: proposed resolution: publish new WD on 1/14 including these changes
16:55:25 <rbyers> Art: any objections?
16:55:32 <rbyers> … hearing none
16:55:46 <rbyers> RESOLUTION: publish new WD on 1/14 including the latest agreed changes
16:55:50 <rbyers> Topic: implementation status
16:56:16 <smaug> asir: could you mute yourself
16:56:19 <smaug> echoing
16:56:50 <Cathy> zakim, mute [Microsoft.a]
16:56:50 <Zakim> [Microsoft.a] should now be muted
17:00:48 <rbyers> zakim, unmute [Microsoft.a]
17:00:48 <Zakim> [Microsoft.a] should no longer be muted
17:02:07 <rbyers> zakim, mute [Microsoft.a]
17:02:07 <Zakim> [Microsoft.a] should now be muted
17:04:22 <rbyers> zakim, unmute [Microsoft.a]
17:04:22 <Zakim> [Microsoft.a] should no longer be muted
17:04:38 <rbyers> zakim, [Microsoft.a] is asir
17:04:38 <Zakim> +asir; got it
17:05:01 <smaug> sangwhan: I assume you're not online atm?
17:05:04 <rbyers> asir: Any update from Opera on their approach to implementation?
17:05:18 <rbyers> … or on changing the time to accommodate them?
17:05:30 <rbyers> Doug: I will put together a poll for time
17:05:48 <rbyers> Doug: do we want a call next week?
17:05:55 <rbyers> … not clear we need one
17:06:05 <ArtB> ACTION: Doug create a poll re conference time
17:06:05 <trackbot> Created ACTION-15 - Create a poll re conference time [on Doug Schepers - due 2013-01-15].
17:06:19 <rbyers> Jacob: if I'm prepared to talk about touch-action by next week, I'd love to have a call
17:06:26 <rbyers> … otherwise I don't have anything
17:06:43 <rbyers> … we will decide by Friday if we have enough information for a call next week
17:06:56 <rbyers> Art: ok, may or may not have call next week
17:07:08 <Zakim> -Olli_Pettay
17:07:09 <Zakim> -Rick_Byers
17:07:09 <Zakim> -asir
17:07:10 <Zakim> -asir.a
17:07:10 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
17:07:12 <Zakim> -Art_Barstow
17:07:13 <Zakim> -Cathy
17:07:17 <rbyers> rbyers has left #pointerevents
17:07:24 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:07:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/01/08-pointerevents-minutes.html ArtB
17:07:28 <Zakim> -Matt_Brubeck
17:07:29 <Zakim> RWC_PEWG()11:00AM has ended
17:07:29 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.519.880.aaaa, Art_Barstow, Rick_Byers, Doug_Schepers, Olli_Pettay, +1.781.266.aabb, Cathy, Matt_Brubeck, asir
17:14:15 <ArtB> zakim, bye
17:14:15 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pointerevents
17:14:19 <ArtB> rrsagent, bye
17:14:19 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/08-pointerevents-actions.rdf :
17:14:19 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Jacob send Doug an email that explains the https issues [1]
17:14:19 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/08-pointerevents-irc#T16-08-37
17:14:19 <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow notify the CSS WG after the next WD of Pointer Events is published [2]
17:14:19 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/08-pointerevents-irc#T16-37-14
17:14:19 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Doug create a poll re conference time [3]
17:14:19 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/08-pointerevents-irc#T17-06-05