IRC log of ldp on 2013-01-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:55:56 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ldp
14:55:56 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/01/07-ldp-irc
14:55:58 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
14:55:58 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ldp
14:56:00 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be LDP
14:56:00 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see SW_LDP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
14:56:01 [trackbot]
Meeting: Linked Data Platform (LDP) Working Group Teleconference
14:56:01 [trackbot]
Date: 07 January 2013
14:58:40 [W782C]
W782C has joined #ldp
14:59:22 [Zakim]
SW_LDP()10:00AM has now started
14:59:29 [Zakim]
+??P0
14:59:32 [Zakim]
+OpenLink_Software
14:59:35 [deiu]
Zakim, ??P0 is me
14:59:35 [Zakim]
+deiu; got it
14:59:46 [Zakim]
+Sandro
14:59:51 [MacTed]
Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
14:59:51 [Zakim]
+MacTed; got it
14:59:53 [MacTed]
Zakim, mute me
14:59:53 [Zakim]
MacTed should now be muted
14:59:55 [deiu]
Zakim, mute me please
14:59:55 [Zakim]
deiu should now be muted
15:00:02 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
15:00:07 [Ruben]
Ruben has joined #ldp
15:00:08 [Zakim]
+Arnaud
15:00:13 [SteveS]
zakim, [IBM] is me
15:00:14 [Zakim]
+SteveS; got it
15:00:24 [BartvanLeeuwen]
BartvanLeeuwen has joined #ldp
15:01:15 [MacTed]
MacTed has changed the topic to: Linked Data Platform WG - http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/ - Today's agenda: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.01.07
15:01:24 [Zakim]
+SteveBattle
15:01:31 [Zakim]
+ +329331aaaa
15:01:37 [Ruben]
Zakim, aaaa is me
15:01:37 [Zakim]
+Ruben; got it
15:01:38 [Zakim]
+??P10
15:01:43 [Ashok_Malhotra]
Ashok_Malhotra has joined #ldp
15:01:44 [Zakim]
+??P11
15:01:49 [BartvanLeeuwen]
Zakim, ??P10 is me
15:01:49 [Zakim]
+BartvanLeeuwen; got it
15:01:52 [Ashok_Malhotra]
zakim, code?
15:01:52 [Zakim]
the conference code is 53794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Ashok_Malhotra
15:02:11 [JohnArwe]
JohnArwe has joined #ldp
15:02:26 [Zakim]
+Ashok_Malhotra
15:02:35 [Zakim]
+JohnArwe
15:02:43 [W782C]
Zakim, ??P11 is me
15:02:43 [Zakim]
+W782C; got it
15:03:03 [Zakim]
+bblfish
15:03:11 [bblfish]
hi
15:03:14 [Arnaud]
zakim, who's here?
15:03:14 [Zakim]
On the phone I see bblfish, deiu (muted), MacTed (muted), Sandro, SteveS, Arnaud, SteveBattle, Ruben, BartvanLeeuwen, W782C, Ashok_Malhotra, JohnArwe
15:03:17 [Zakim]
On IRC I see JohnArwe, Ashok_Malhotra, BartvanLeeuwen, Ruben, W782C, Zakim, RRSAgent, Arnaud, bhyland, MacTed, SteveS, AndyS, betehess, stevebattle, oberger, deiu, Yves, trackbot,
15:03:17 [Zakim]
... bblfish, gavinc, sandro, ericP
15:03:32 [krp]
krp has joined #ldp
15:04:04 [Zakim]
+Yves
15:04:27 [bblfish]
happy new 2013
15:04:49 [Arnaud]
zakim, pick a victim
15:04:49 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose bblfish
15:05:23 [Arnaud]
zakim, pick a victim
15:05:23 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Ruben
15:05:30 [Zakim]
+??P25
15:05:56 [krp]
zakim, ??P25 is me
15:05:56 [Zakim]
+krp; got it
15:06:14 [Zakim]
+EricP
15:06:57 [Ruben]
topic: minutes of last meeting
15:07:15 [SteveS]
+1 accepted Dec 17th minutes
15:07:18 [Ruben]
+1
15:07:20 [deiu]
+1
15:07:20 [stevebattle]
+1
15:07:32 [bblfish]
minutes of http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/meeting/2012-12-17
15:07:35 [nmihindu]
+1
15:08:02 [Ruben]
resolved: minutes of previous meeting accepted
15:08:33 [Ruben]
topic: next f2c
15:08:40 [Ruben]
arnaud: Boston is proposed
15:08:44 [Ruben]
proposal: make this official
15:09:12 [Ruben]
scribe: Ruben
15:09:13 [Ashok_Malhotra]
March 13-15 at MIT
15:09:14 [deiu]
Proposal for next face to face to be held at MIT in Boston 2013-03-13 to 2013-03-15 (3 days).
15:09:15 [JohnArwe]
March 13-15
15:09:41 [SteveS]
+1 to freezing in Boston
15:09:41 [Ruben]
Erik will set up a workshop page
15:10:08 [ericP]
http://www.w3.org/2011/09/LinkedData/#venue
15:11:51 [Ruben]
Sandro already reserved a room for this.
15:12:28 [Ruben]
Topic: Actions and issues
15:12:58 [Ruben]
No victory declared on open actions.
15:13:09 [sandro]
ericP, I just confirmed, yes I reserved G882.
15:13:37 [Ruben]
Arnaud: We left issue 5 open on purpose, as discussed last time.
15:13:52 [Ruben]
Who is speaking?
15:14:00 [stevebattle]
Issue-41 was waiting for the OK from John Arew
15:14:11 [stevebattle]
s/Arew/Arwe
15:14:34 [sandro]
ericP, we also have 262 reserved. Are we teleconferencing or not?
15:14:47 [Ruben]
Propose: changing 5 from pending to postpone
15:15:28 [deiu]
issue-41?
15:15:28 [trackbot]
ISSUE-41 -- Standard way to manage members with attachments -- pending review
15:15:28 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/41
15:15:28 [Ruben]
Arnaud: is this issue a duplicate?
15:15:55 [Zakim]
-krp
15:15:57 [stevebattle]
We also added text in UC&R 4.8.2 to cover this
15:16:09 [stevebattle]
http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/hg/ldp-ucr.html#alternative-scenario-media-resource-attachments
15:16:23 [Zakim]
+??P25
15:16:30 [krp]
zakim, ??P25 is me
15:16:30 [Zakim]
+krp; got it
15:16:38 [Ruben]
JohnArwe: fine to close the issue
15:16:43 [Ruben]
Arnaud: let's do that
15:17:06 [Ruben]
all: No objections to closing this issue.
15:17:34 [Ruben]
close issue 41
15:17:40 [JohnArwe]
close issue-41
15:17:40 [trackbot]
Closed ISSUE-41 Standard way to manage members with attachments.
15:17:56 [stevebattle]
raised issues?
15:17:59 [trackbot]
Sorry, JohnArwe, I don't understand 'trackbot wants dashes'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
15:18:16 [stevebattle]
q+
15:18:36 [Arnaud]
ack steve
15:18:40 [Ruben]
stevebattle: we've got 8 bad references, just need to get document in shape
15:18:58 [Ruben]
SteveS: the bad references – a patch has been submitted
15:19:13 [Zakim]
-krp
15:19:33 [Zakim]
+??P25
15:19:35 [krp]
zakim, ??P25 is me
15:19:35 [Zakim]
+krp; got it
15:20:50 [stevebattle]
Arnause - we didn't cover raised issues.
15:20:56 [Ruben]
arnaud: What about the specifications?
15:21:05 [stevebattle]
s/Arnause/Arnaud/
15:21:08 [Zakim]
-krp
15:21:22 [Ruben]
JohnArwe: made some minor fixes
15:21:30 [Zakim]
+??P25
15:22:11 [Ruben]
topic: Discussing issues
15:22:32 [Ruben]
Arnaud: ongoing discussion on aggregation versus composition
15:22:36 [Ruben]
Arnaud: should we have aggregation?
15:22:49 [Ruben]
Arnaud: several proposals were sent to mailing list
15:23:23 [ericP]
q+ to ask if the only distinction between aggregation and composition is whether resources are deleted when their containers are deleted
15:23:40 [Ruben]
Arnaud: how many proposals do we want to consider?
15:23:46 [Arnaud]
ack ericp
15:23:46 [Zakim]
ericP, you wanted to ask if the only distinction between aggregation and composition is whether resources are deleted when their containers are deleted
15:23:48 [bblfish]
q+
15:23:51 [JohnArwe]
Note that we do have a new RAISED issue, 42 about section 4.8 and its prescriptiveness
15:24:03 [SteveS]
q+ to answer that question
15:24:17 [Ruben]
arnaud: without a proposal, it's hard to say deleting is only difference
15:24:57 [bblfish]
My simple proposals http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-wg/2012Dec/0113.html
15:25:13 [SteveS]
Composition: 1) resource only "lives" in one container 2) when container is deleted, so its contents 3) may (or may not) be able to move resources between containers
15:25:27 [Arnaud]
ack bblfish
15:26:05 [Ruben]
bblfish: suggest simple proposals
15:26:10 [Ruben]
bblfish: only create with container
15:26:25 [Ruben]
bblfish: to create anything else, just create document, do updates with PUT
15:26:32 [Ruben]
bblfish: PATCH is just optimization
15:27:27 [Ruben]
bblfish: to delete a link, just change the document
15:27:28 [Arnaud]
ack steves
15:27:28 [Zakim]
SteveS, you wanted to answer that question
15:27:38 [Zakim]
-??P25
15:27:44 [Ruben]
SteveS: difference is that a resource is a member of one container
15:28:01 [Zakim]
+??P6
15:28:09 [Ruben]
SteveS: what's open, is ability to relocated from one container to another
15:28:09 [krp]
zakim, ??P6 is me
15:28:09 [Zakim]
+krp; got it
15:29:05 [Ruben]
SteveS: comment on Henri's proposal – if the URL you're posting to is a container, or an endpoint that can handle container or resource creation?
15:29:13 [stevebattle]
q+
15:29:14 [Ruben]
s/if/is/
15:29:38 [Ruben]
bblfish: you can create "containees"
15:30:02 [Ruben]
bblfish: to create an aggregation, you POST a document containing the information about what the elements of the container you want to create are
15:30:27 [Ruben]
bblfish: such a document is editable
15:31:03 [Ruben]
bblfish: does that make sense?
15:31:06 [Ruben]
SteveS: mostly
15:31:55 [Arnaud]
ack steveb
15:31:57 [Ruben]
bblfish: let's discuss on mailing list
15:32:16 [Ruben]
steveb: I like Henri's example outline, but have some questions
15:32:22 [Ruben]
steveb: why weak container and not LDP container?
15:32:38 [Ruben]
steveb: why a fragment ID… ?
15:33:54 [stevebattle]
stevebattle: I like the use of a :contains property for describing composition
15:34:48 [Ruben]
bblfish; you can't do a POST to create another element
15:35:12 [Ruben]
bblfish: fragement IDs: you're not dealing with a resource, helps to make distinction
15:35:18 [Ruben]
s/fragement/fragment
15:36:10 [Zakim]
-krp
15:36:15 [stevebattle]
ok I misunderstood, I thought this could be used to create resources using POST
15:36:23 [Zakim]
+??P6
15:36:26 [krp]
zakim, ??P6 is me
15:36:26 [Zakim]
+krp; got it
15:36:53 [Ruben]
arnaud: how many proposals do we really have?
15:36:55 [JohnArwe]
I [also] thought Henry's proposal could be used to create resources using POST
15:37:08 [JohnArwe]
...but that's why I ask questions ;-)
15:37:10 [Ruben]
Arnaud: can we group them together?
15:37:21 [bblfish]
what was the URL for that proposal?
15:37:37 [Ruben]
Arnaud: we should make progress towards one proposal for addition to the spec
15:37:39 [SteveS]
I propose we open an issue for week aggregation, then hook these proposals off of that
15:37:51 [bblfish]
was it this one http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-wg/2012Dec/0073.html
15:37:52 [bblfish]
?
15:38:09 [JohnArwe]
steve speich speaking
15:38:11 [Ruben]
SteveS: we need an open issue
15:38:16 [JohnArwe]
s/speich/speicher/
15:38:20 [ericP]
is it worth dividing this into facets (creates resources, accepts external resources, must|may|mustn't deleted all|created resources)
15:38:27 [stevebattle]
I was talking about composition???
15:38:35 [Ruben]
Arnaud: can we reuse an issue for this?
15:38:47 [ericP]
and then characterize the proposals according to those facets
15:39:00 [JohnArwe]
issues 34 and 37 appear related
15:39:10 [bblfish]
q?
15:39:13 [bblfish]
q+
15:39:14 [Ruben]
Arnaud: Eric started a wiki page for proposal
15:39:26 [Arnaud]
s/eric/erik/
15:39:29 [JohnArwe]
s/Eric/Erik/
15:39:37 [stevebattle]
q+
15:39:40 [bblfish]
q-
15:39:47 [Ashok_Malhotra]
+1 to creating facets and use then to evaluate proposals
15:39:47 [SteveS]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-wg/2012Dec/0118.html
15:39:50 [bblfish]
thanks
15:39:57 [Arnaud]
http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/ISSUE-37
15:40:10 [stevebattle]
q-
15:40:30 [Ruben]
issue-37?
15:40:30 [trackbot]
ISSUE-37 -- What is the LDP data model and the LDP interaction model? -- open
15:40:30 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/37
15:41:48 [bblfish]
issue-34?
15:41:48 [trackbot]
ISSUE-34 -- Adding and removing arcs in weak aggregation -- open
15:41:48 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/34
15:41:49 [MacTed]
it's safe to create a new issue, even if there's overlap -- make note of potential overlap in writeup of new issue!
15:42:06 [MacTed]
if today's can be worded clearly, just create it
15:42:14 [Ruben]
Arnaud: do we need another wiki page for aggregation proposal?
15:42:14 [ericP]
q+
15:42:35 [Ruben]
Arnaud: or do we use the mailing list (which seems a challenge)?
15:43:23 [SteveS]
q+
15:43:46 [bblfish]
I suppose I forgot to add the ISSUE-34 into the mail I sent
15:44:05 [JohnArwe]
wrt issue 34, not too late, just add in the next reply
15:44:36 [JohnArwe]
wrt your proposal henry, do you want to own yours or do you want me to take a first stab at it?
15:45:17 [bblfish]
If you want to put it together, then I can see if I was able to explain myself clearly JohnArwe :-)
15:45:27 [Arnaud]
Arnaud has joined #ldp
15:45:33 [SteveS]
I was wondering by we needed a wiki page to track the email threads, instead of just adding emails to the issue
15:45:46 [JohnArwe]
sure - post that next set of answers we spoke of earlier on this call Henry, and I'll try to start from there.
15:45:48 [Ruben]
arnaud: I agree, there's a little overlap with the LDP model
15:45:50 [SteveS]
but a wiki table would be good like ericP discusses
15:45:51 [ericP]
ack me
15:46:16 [Ruben]
Arnaud: if John's willing to do the effort of wikifying, that's great
15:46:22 [Arnaud]
ack steves
15:46:36 [JohnArwe]
I agree that the questions will themselves inform the set of facets in EricP's table that we end up with
15:46:45 [Zakim]
-krp
15:46:48 [bblfish]
JohnArwe: but just ping me when you have something basic going. Then I'll check up on it.
15:46:52 [Ruben]
SteveS: to track proposals on 34, it's valuable to have one proposal to iterate on
15:46:58 [Zakim]
+??P6
15:47:02 [krp]
zakim, ??P6 is me
15:47:02 [Zakim]
+krp; got it
15:47:21 [Ruben]
Arnaud: on the issue, shall we link to the wiki page?
15:47:32 [Ruben]
SteveS: someone's got to update the wiki
15:47:38 [Ruben]
Arnaud: JohnArwe will do that
15:48:37 [Ruben]
Arnaud: we still should tag issue numbers on mails
15:48:49 [bblfish]
you can also put a link into the Issue page with a link to the wiki
15:48:54 [Arnaud]
Arnaud has joined #ldp
15:48:54 [Zakim]
-krp
15:49:07 [Zakim]
+??P6
15:49:32 [Ruben]
putting the issue number anywhere in the mail should work
15:50:32 [Ruben]
Action: aggregate aggregation proposals
15:50:32 [trackbot]
Error finding 'aggregate'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/users>.
15:50:40 [JohnArwe]
action: johnarwe to create wiki page for issue-34 proposals
15:50:40 [trackbot]
Error finding 'johnarwe'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/users>.
15:51:09 [bblfish]
action: JohnArwe to create wiki page for issue-34 proposals
15:51:09 [trackbot]
Error finding 'JohnArwe'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/users>.
15:51:15 [bblfish]
action, JohnArwe to create wiki page for issue-34 proposals
15:51:18 [JohnArwe]
action: john to create wiki page for issue-34 proposals
15:51:18 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-35 - Create wiki page for issue-34 proposals [on John Arwe - due 2013-01-14].
15:52:09 [Ruben]
arnaud: anything else?
15:52:22 [Ruben]
topic: Issue 42
15:52:26 [Ruben]
issue-42?
15:52:26 [trackbot]
ISSUE-42 -- Use of common-properties should not be overly prescriptive in section 4.8 -- raised
15:52:26 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/42
15:52:30 [JohnArwe]
http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/raised
15:52:54 [stevebattle]
q+
15:53:04 [Arnaud]
ack steveb
15:53:29 [Ruben]
stevebattle: I was reviewing the spec and noticed in 4.8 it defines a number of properties, and says that you must use them when you can
15:53:37 [AndyS]
AndyS has left #ldp
15:53:57 [Ruben]
stevebattle: 4.8 seems to be over-prescriptive: it may not be appropriate to use these properties in some cases
15:54:22 [Ruben]
arnaud: somebody on the public list said it's more best practice
15:54:31 [Ruben]
s/more/rather/
15:54:47 [stevebattle]
s/somebody/Leigh Dodds/
15:55:06 [Ruben]
arnaud: eventually, we agreed to remove them, because there would be a separate best practices document
15:55:31 [Ruben]
arnaud: we should open this. any comments?
15:55:32 [SteveS]
no comments
15:55:35 [stevebattle]
+1
15:55:36 [Ruben]
propose: open
15:55:42 [Ruben]
accept
15:55:45 [Ruben]
open issue-41
15:55:48 [SteveS]
+1 to open
15:55:51 [MacTed]
+1
15:55:52 [deiu]
+1
15:55:54 [bblfish]
+1
15:55:59 [nmihindu]
+1
15:56:05 [Ruben]
open issue-42
15:56:19 [bblfish]
what was the question?
15:56:44 [stevebattle]
+1
15:56:48 [Yves]
issue42?
15:56:49 [Ruben]
arnaud: …and let's close it directly, too.
15:56:54 [stevebattle]
+1
15:56:54 [Ruben]
issue-42?
15:56:54 [trackbot]
ISSUE-42 -- Use of common-properties should not be overly prescriptive in section 4.8 -- raised
15:56:54 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/42
15:57:00 [SteveS]
http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Deployment_Guide
15:57:27 [Arnaud]
proposal: remove section 4.8 from the ldp spec and move it to the deployment guide - it is a best practice
15:57:34 [bblfish]
+1
15:57:35 [stevebattle]
+1 already
15:57:36 [Ruben]
+1
15:57:47 [SteveS]
+1
15:57:51 [Zakim]
-??P6
15:57:57 [deiu]
+1
15:57:59 [MacTed]
+1
15:58:09 [Zakim]
+??P6
15:58:27 [nmihindu]
+1
15:58:29 [krp]
zakim, ??P6 is me
15:58:29 [Zakim]
+krp; got it
15:58:32 [krp]
+1
15:58:35 [Ashok_Malhotra]
+1
15:58:39 [JohnArwe]
+1
15:58:53 [Ruben]
resolved
15:58:58 [stevebattle]
It's a record!
15:59:07 [bblfish]
RESOLVED: remove section 4.8 from the ldp spec and move it to the deployment guide - it is a best practice
15:59:27 [Zakim]
-Ashok_Malhotra
15:59:34 [Ruben]
arnaud: the editor now has a pending action to remove 4.8
16:00:11 [Ruben]
SteveS: Robin merged changed, just one left
16:00:35 [Zakim]
-MacTed
16:00:38 [Zakim]
-bblfish
16:00:40 [Zakim]
-SteveS
16:00:42 [Zakim]
-Yves
16:00:42 [Zakim]
-Ruben
16:00:42 [Ruben]
Ruben has left #ldp
16:00:44 [Zakim]
-SteveBattle
16:00:44 [Zakim]
-Arnaud
16:00:46 [Zakim]
-EricP
16:00:48 [Zakim]
-deiu
16:00:50 [Zakim]
-JohnArwe
16:00:53 [Zakim]
-krp
16:01:35 [Zakim]
-BartvanLeeuwen
16:01:46 [Zakim]
-W782C
16:01:47 [Zakim]
SW_LDP()10:00AM has ended
16:01:47 [Zakim]
Attendees were deiu, Sandro, MacTed, Arnaud, SteveS, SteveBattle, +329331aaaa, Ruben, BartvanLeeuwen, Ashok_Malhotra, JohnArwe, W782C, bblfish, Yves, krp, EricP
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