Chatlog 2012-08-27

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13:57:45 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ldp
13:57:45 <RRSAgent> logging to
13:57:47 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:57:47 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #ldp
13:57:49 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be LDP
13:57:50 <trackbot> Meeting: Linked Data Platform (LDP) Working Group Teleconference
13:57:50 <trackbot> Date: 27 August 2012
13:57:51 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_LDP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
13:58:15 <oberger> don't get upset, no one's available ;)
13:58:19 <Zakim> SW_LDP()10:00AM has now started
13:58:26 <Zakim> +sandro
13:58:38 <sandro> hmmm?
13:58:51 <Yves> no call this week, no?
13:59:01 <Zakim> +??P7
13:59:10 <Zakim> +??P6
13:59:39 <sandro> Yes call this week.    There was an agenda, plus it was in the minutes of last week and it's in the channel title.....!
14:00:04 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: next LDP meeting 27-August-2012   AGENDA:
14:00:06 <Yves> ok, thanks (I don't see the channel title, and am lagging on email)
14:00:13 <oberger> Zakim, ??P6 is me
14:00:13 <Zakim> +oberger; got it
14:00:23 <Zakim> +[IBM]
14:00:31 <SteveS> SteveS has joined #ldp
14:00:47 <MacTed> Zakim, code?
14:00:47 <Zakim> the conference code is 53794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, MacTed
14:00:53 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
14:00:56 <Ruben> Hi all, I won't be able to participate on the phone (traveling), but I will be on IRC.
14:01:04 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software has me
14:01:04 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
14:01:06 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
14:01:06 <Zakim> sorry, MacTed, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
14:01:12 <Zakim> -??P7
14:01:12 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
14:01:12 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
14:01:16 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
14:01:16 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
14:01:19 <SteveS> Zakim, [IBM] is me
14:01:19 <Zakim> +SteveS; got it
14:01:46 <oberger> Zakim, mute me
14:01:46 <Zakim> oberger should now be muted
14:02:30 <bblfish> bblfish has joined #ldp
14:02:40 <bblfish> hi
14:02:46 <Zakim> +Arthur_Keen
14:02:50 <Zakim> +??P21
14:02:55 <oberger> ouch
14:03:02 <oberger> hello Dr larsen
14:03:07 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?
14:03:08 <AndyS> zakim, ??P21 is me
14:03:08 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
14:03:18 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
14:03:33 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?
14:03:43 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
14:03:46 <oberger> SteveS: or from a plane
14:04:03 <Zakim> + +1.510.698.aaaa
14:04:04 <Zakim> + +1.617.324.aabb
14:04:15 <AndyS> zakim, mute me
14:04:15 <Zakim> AndyS should now be muted
14:04:23 <AndyS> zakim, unmute me
14:04:23 <Zakim> AndyS should no longer be muted
14:04:29 <oberger> ah
14:04:52 <bblfish> Zakim, who is here?
14:04:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see sandro, oberger (muted), SteveS, MacTed (muted), Arthur_Keen, AndyS, +1.510.698.aaaa, Yves
14:04:54 <Zakim> MacTed has MacTed
14:04:54 <Zakim> On IRC I see bblfish, SteveS, Zakim, RRSAgent, AndyS, Ruben, MacTed, betehess, LeeF, oberger, trackbot, sandro, Yves, ericP
14:05:22 <bblfish> Zakim, aaaa is bblfish
14:05:22 <Zakim> +bblfish; got it
14:05:26 <bblfish> Zakim, who is here?
14:05:27 <Arnaud> Arnaud has joined #ldp
14:05:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see sandro, oberger (muted), SteveS, MacTed (muted), Arthur_Keen, AndyS, bblfish, Yves
14:05:33 <SteveBattle> SteveBattle has joined #ldp
14:05:35 <Zakim> MacTed has MacTed
14:05:38 <Zakim> On IRC I see Arnaud, bblfish, SteveS, Zakim, RRSAgent, AndyS, Ruben, MacTed, betehess, LeeF, oberger, trackbot, sandro, Yves, ericP
14:05:43 <Zakim> +Arnaud
14:05:51 <oberger> Hi Arnaud
14:06:16 <ericP>  regrets: on stage
14:07:15 <bblfish> was there a conf call last week?
14:07:33 <oberger> summer time is hard time to stay focused
14:07:59 <sandro> Yes, bblfish 
14:08:10 <bblfish> ah, I thought it was every two weeks in summer
14:08:55 <oberger> texting via REST APIs while driving ? booh
14:09:32 <Zakim> + +44.754.550.aacc
14:10:49 <oberger> Zakim, unmute me
14:10:49 <Zakim> oberger should no longer be muted
14:11:36 <sandro> scribe: SteveS 
14:11:50 <SteveS> scribenick: SteveS
14:12:18 <Zakim> +??P32
14:12:30 <BartvanLeeuwen> BartvanLeeuwen has joined #ldp
14:12:33 <SteveS> Topic: Minutes from 22 August 2012
14:12:45 <oberger> nope
14:12:49 <SteveBattle> zakim, ??P32 is me
14:12:49 <Zakim> +SteveBattle; got it
14:13:11 <ghard> ghard has joined #ldp
14:13:14 <SteveS> Arnaud asks if anyone has read minutes…no response
14:13:14 <bblfish> I still have to do my action item
14:13:25 <sandro> action-4?
14:13:25 <trackbot> ACTION-4 -- Steve Speicher to review SPARQL Graph Store Protocol and suggest how we should move forward with it -- due 2012-09-03 -- OPEN
14:13:25 <trackbot>
14:13:50 <SteveS> Topic: SteveS slacking on ACTION-4
14:14:04 <SteveS> SteveS to get to in next week or so
14:14:25 <SteveS> Topic: Action reviews
14:15:00 <oberger> reminder : no meeting next week (Labour day in the US)
14:15:01 <SteveS> bblfish will get to action-5
14:15:41 <SteveS> No update on ACTION-6, Michael had sent regrets for today
14:16:33 <SteveS> Topic: Upcoming meetings
14:16:35 <SteveS> Arnaud: Next telecon is in 2 weeks, September 10
14:16:37 <ghard> ghard has joined #ldp
14:17:21 <SteveS> sandro: looked into f2f room sizings for larger group, need WG members to actually register
14:18:06 <Kalpa> Kalpa has joined #ldp
14:18:14 <SteveS> …can get a bigger room if registration counts are high enough
14:18:35 <Zakim> +??P33
14:18:44 <SteveS> sandro: recommends attending Wed sessions, many find it very valuable
14:18:51 <BartvanLeeuwen> :)
14:18:59 <ghard> zakim, P33 is ghard
14:18:59 <Zakim> sorry, ghard, I do not recognize a party named 'P33'
14:19:16 <sandro> Zakim, ??P33 is ghard 
14:19:16 <Zakim> +ghard; got it
14:19:23 <ghard> Excuses for being late. Got network stability problems.
14:19:25 <SteveS> …costs about $50 USD / day for F2F
14:19:53 <Zakim> +Kalpa
14:20:01 <SteveS> ??? asked bblfish if room or something planned for f2f with WebID
14:20:15 <oberger> SteveS: ??? was me
14:20:34 <SteveS> s/???/oberger/
14:20:37 <sandro> €45 until the close of registration (16 October 2012)
14:21:01 <SteveS> Topic: Use Cases and Requirements structure
14:21:15 <oberger> Zakim, mute me
14:21:15 <Zakim> oberger should now be muted
14:21:16 <bblfish> So I am looking to organise a meeting for WebID and RWW Community Groups at TPAC Lyon, but we are still looking to see if we can get a room.
14:21:16 <SteveS> This is topic ACTION-9
14:21:36 <bblfish> But otherwise I will look to see if we can organise something anyway in Lyon.
14:22:11 <SteveS> Here's the proposal
14:22:39 <SteveS> Arnaud: positive comments from a number looking to hear if any other feedback
14:23:10 <SteveS> SteveBattle: has updated the wiki to take into account this change
14:23:25 <sandro>
14:23:49 <SteveS> namely changing Use Cases to User Stories, in prep for collecting use cases
14:24:38 <oberger> SteveS: /me added the link to the action in
14:24:57 <BartvanLeeuwen> q+
14:25:17 <SteveS> …plan is to expand on the User Stories, then pull out the more detailed Use Cases and the more detailed Requirements
14:25:22 <Arnaud> ack bart
14:25:45 <SteveS> BartvanLeeuwen: Are the use cases/stories still open for contributions?
14:26:00 <SteveS> SteveBattle: Yes
14:26:05 <bblfish> good so I suppose my action item should be a user story
14:26:09 <bblfish> or integrated with one
14:26:55 <SteveS> SteveBattle: Assumes these will be very "CRUDy" based on the scope of this WG
14:28:09 <SteveS> ACTION: SteveBattle to Create at least one Use Case by next meeting due 9/10/2012
14:28:09 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - SteveBattle
14:29:09 <SteveS> Arnaud: proposed to close action-9
14:29:19 <SteveS> close action-9
14:29:19 <trackbot> ACTION-9 Propose a new structure for the Use Cases and Requirements document closed
14:29:47 <Arnaud> q?
14:30:20 <SteveS> SteveBattle: SteveS and Michael (not on call) are interested in developing out the use cases more?
14:30:23 <SteveS> SteveS: Yes
14:31:32 <SteveS> Topic: Serialization format discussion and process
14:32:25 <SteveS> Arnaud: how does the process work for raising issues, like serialization format, and get reviewed and agreed on
14:33:15 <SteveS> sandro: someone raises (creates) an issue in the system, it goes into a pending state, then the WG decides if they accept the issue (something they will work on or valid) and it becomes open
14:33:26 <SteveS> …the WG then works on a resolution
14:35:09 <Zakim> -Arthur_Keen
14:35:14 <SteveS> Arnaud: believes that by definition of our charter and references to member submission, then we can start with that and open issues from there and get WG agreement
14:35:31 <Zakim> +RezaBfar
14:35:42 <ArthurK> ArthurK has joined #ldp
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14:36:31 <Zakim> +ArthurK
14:36:49 <Arnaud> q?
14:36:57 <bblfish> q+
14:37:00 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
14:37:00 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
14:37:03 <SteveBattle> q+
14:37:07 <RezaBFar> @Arnaud - sorry I'm late... 
14:37:16 <SteveS> Arnaud: need to make sure the work we do with perhaps a more abstract model then we need to make sure we map it back to RDF model
14:37:23 <MacTed> q+
14:37:46 <oberger> bblfish: ?
14:38:00 <bblfish>
14:38:48 <RezaBFar> q+
14:39:13 <SteveS> bblfish: Expressed my thoughts on this and around the WebID spec. Did require a publish to N3 and clients understand both N3 and RDF/XML
14:39:31 <bblfish> GRDDL
14:39:36 <bblfish> XSPARQL
14:39:51 <SteveS> …would like to add that there is a requirement to support GRDDL for expressing what is supported
14:40:19 <Arnaud> ack bblfish
14:40:42 <SteveS> …it is not reasonable to convert some forms not into RDF
14:41:06 <SteveS> q+
14:41:23 <Arnaud> ack SteveBattle
14:41:58 <bblfish> I think turtle is also a standard now
14:41:58 <RezaBFar> +1 to SteveBattle.  That's exactly what I'm looking for.
14:42:04 <SteveS> SteveBattle: +1 for openness of serialization of RDF models, would like to support at least one.  RDF/XML is reasonable as only W3C Rec spec, perhaps we have at least 1 minimum required
14:42:27 <SteveS> …server could expose what it supports
14:42:41 <AndyS> N3 goes beyond RDF - to be clear here, lets stick to the (soon to be) standard turtle.
14:43:05 <AndyS> N-triples will also be standardised by RDF-WG.
14:43:25 <Ruben> There's no advantage in this scenario to N3 instead of Turtle.
14:43:31 <SteveS> MacTed: says that Arnaud mentioned limit options, but believes we need to be more open to extensibility
14:43:34 <SteveBattle> That's interesting - I didn't know N3 went beyond RDF.
14:43:43 <Ruben> N3 adds quantification and variables.
14:44:01 <RezaBFar> So, I think there is 3 things: 1.  Some standard query as part of the spec that provides format (so serialization format discovery) 2.  Allowance for implementation of serialization of other formats.  3.  Implementing at least 2 formats, 1 of which is RDF/XML, the other which we could agree on as a team.
14:44:38 <SteveS> MacTed: resource creation (POST) is that a server can chose to reject or handle that request as needed (transform or handle as is)
14:44:40 <MacTed> ack me
14:44:45 <oberger> MacTed: I didn't get your concern abouut RDF+XML...
14:44:53 <oberger> would like to see a transcript
14:45:02 <SteveBattle> What can't be encoded in RDF/XML?
14:45:13 <oberger> SteveBattle: that one yes
14:45:31 <AndyS> Properties with URIs that aren't representable as qnames  e.g. http://example/1234
14:46:16 <SteveS> Arnaud: not against building an extensible spec but more on the point when there are too many options to achieve same/similar things
14:46:26 <Arnaud> q?
14:46:28 <AndyS> and http://example/property# and a few other cases. Tend to be unusual but can be tricky at scale if it gets into the data.
14:46:43 <Arnaud> ack Reza
14:47:16 <oberger> RezaBFar: what problem ?
14:47:24 <SteveS> RezaBFar: Agrees with SteveBattle, doesn't see the need to limit to RDF/XML and have additional format
14:47:34 <oberger> verbosity ?
14:47:56 <SteveS> ….XML processing has some overhead and should consider less-verbose options for efficiency
14:48:12 <Arnaud> q?
14:48:22 <oberger> JSON-LD would be very much appealing to all the Web2 devs
14:48:32 <oberger> YAML ? ;)
14:48:48 <sandro> oberger, more appealing than RDF/XML or than Turtle?
14:49:05 <oberger> sandro: people who do native JS ? probably
14:49:19 <sandro> s/sandro:/sandro,/
14:49:26 <MacTed> concern with RDF/XML: cannot serialize all RDF ... as AndyS says.  see
14:49:50 <Arnaud> q?
14:49:57 <sandro> oberger, I was asking an (a) or (b) question, but I guess your answer is "both".
14:50:19 <oberger> sandro: sure, both : no extra parsing
14:50:22 <bblfish> So to summarise my point earlier: 
14:50:22 <bblfish> 1. Turtle ( ) or RDFxml perhaps a SHOULD ( on the Turtle, RDFa, RDFxml were made MUST understand by client -- Turtle, RDFxml should be sent by server )
14:50:22 <bblfish> 2. Other formats should be supported but there should be a follow your nose to a GRDDL so that one can automatically transforrm it to RDF graphs
14:50:24 <bblfish> 3. there is a complicating issue as this LDP requires PUT & POST which means that the server does need to be able to understand the formats sent. 
14:50:25 <Arnaud> ack SteveS
14:50:26 <bblfish> 4. there will be some form of Graph query which will require that the format be queryable as a graph
14:50:32 <SteveS> ISSUE: Determine minimum serialization format for RDF data model
14:50:32 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-1 - Determine minimum serialization format for RDF data model ; please complete additional details at .
14:50:34 <RezaBFar>  Question: so now that it's an issue, what's next?
14:50:39 <sandro> s/sandro:/sandro,/
14:50:53 <RezaBFar> @Arnaud - how do we resolve the issue since it's a significant issue.
14:50:57 <AndyS> (caution - that diagram is confusion - Turtle can express any RDF - the reification point is not the point - it's old special syntax)
14:51:42 <oberger> we can move on when everybody's back from vacation more or less ?
14:51:45 <RezaBFar> @Arnaud - Makes sense.  Thanks for the clarification.
14:52:05 <SteveS> Arnaud: answering RezaBFar, need to have a proposal and reach consensus on the issue and record it
14:53:02 <SteveS> sandro: can be good collect more facts on the matter and may need to get to point where just need to pick one
14:53:09 <RezaBFar> @sandro - thanks.
14:53:30 <Arnaud> q?
14:53:30 <RezaBFar> Sandro's opinion?
14:53:47 <oberger> next in 2 weeks ?
14:53:47 <RezaBFar> on RDF/XML, etc.? Sandro was saying something?
14:54:02 <SteveS> Arnaud: any other agenda items?
14:54:38 <oberger> sandro, my suggestion on JSON-LD is purely speculative
14:54:41 <SteveS> sandro: is a big win in mental clarity on a simple format but think still open in my mind if JSON-LD meets that
14:55:45 <SteveS> sandro: if I had to pick something right now, it would be Turtle but may be things I'm forgetting about RDF/XML
14:56:17 <MacTed> q+
14:57:03 <BartvanLeeuwen> +1 to bblfish remarks to JSON-LD remark
14:57:09 <SteveS> bblfish: Wonder if there is anything around efficiency with XML binary formats that apply with RDF/XML
14:57:35 <RezaBFar> FWIW, I agree with Sandro on Turtle.
14:58:25 <MacTed> ... s/JSON-GRDDL/JSON-LD/
14:58:33 <SteveS> bblfish: question to JSON people, when you publish in json-grddl can be represented as any tree as root of graph and could it confuse them?
14:59:03 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
14:59:03 <Zakim> MacTed was not muted, MacTed
14:59:45 <sandro> q?
14:59:52 <sandro> q+ to propose strawpoll
14:59:58 <SteveS> MacTed: was in JSON-LD group, started as a way to get JSON people who are using structured data in a more interoperable ways based on RDF concepts
15:00:23 <AndyS> q+
15:00:46 <SteveS> MacTed: for some similar implementations Turtle makes it very easy but lacks some of the RDF concepts, as linked to before
15:00:46 <oberger> Turtle is great to read by humans, discovering specs, but in all languages ?
15:01:01 <Arnaud> ack Ted
15:01:08 <MacTed> ack me
15:01:08 <bblfish> +1 for Turtle as base, easier to understand
15:01:20 <sandro> STRAWPOLL: Which one RDF serialization should we pick as our 1-required-serialization, if we had to pick one today?    (eg rdf/xml, turtle, json-ld, RDFa, or NONE)
15:01:24 <AndyS> Turtle can express any RDF.
15:01:26 <sandro> turtle
15:01:27 <RezaBFar> Turtle
15:01:28 <bblfish> +1 Turtle
15:01:29 <BartvanLeeuwen> Turtle
15:01:29 <oberger> RDF+XML
15:01:32 <MacTed> Turtle
15:01:33 <AndyS> Turtle
15:01:37 <ArthurK> turtle
15:01:39 <oberger> for implementation
15:01:41 <SteveS> sandro: straw man poll of preferred RDF serialization
15:01:43 <SteveBattle> (turtle and rdf/XML)
15:01:43 <SteveS> Turtle
15:01:52 <Kalpa> rdf/XML
15:01:58 <RezaBFar> So, I meant (Turtle and RDF/XML)
15:02:00 <MacTed> AndyS - any chance you can rework that Venn with current status?  possibly including JSON-LD?
15:02:14 <MacTed> there may be other serializations that didn't exist when it was drawn that should also be added in...
15:02:29 <bblfish> well rdf/xml would be a SHOULD
15:02:35 <oberger> which libs are turtle compatible ?
15:02:50 <Arnaud> ack sandro
15:02:50 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to propose strawpoll
15:03:04 <Arnaud> andy?
15:03:32 <Arnaud> ack andy
15:03:34 <SteveS> AndyS: found the diagram was someones opinion for a long time ago and not right
15:03:41 <SteveS> sandro: agrees
15:03:48 <SteveS> MacTed: would like to see it updated
15:03:52 <oberger> bye
15:03:52 <Zakim> -bblfish
15:03:54 <SteveBattle> bye
15:03:56 <BartvanLeeuwen> thanks and bye
15:03:56 <Zakim> -RezaBfar
15:03:56 <bblfish> bye
15:03:57 <ghard> bye
15:03:58 <Zakim> -Arnaud
15:03:59 <Kalpa> bye
15:04:01 <Zakim> -Yves
15:04:02 <Zakim> -MacTed
15:04:02 <Zakim> -SteveBattle
15:04:02 <Zakim> -AndyS
15:04:04 <Zakim> -SteveS
15:04:06 <Zakim> -sandro
15:04:07 <Zakim> -ghard
15:04:07 <Zakim> -oberger
15:04:10 <Zakim> - +44.754.550.aacc
15:04:14 <Zakim> -ArthurK
15:04:16 <Zakim> -Kalpa
15:04:17 <Zakim> SW_LDP()10:00AM has ended
15:04:17 <Zakim> Attendees were sandro, oberger, MacTed, SteveS, Arthur_Keen, AndyS, +1.510.698.aaaa, +1.617.324.aabb, Yves, bblfish, Arnaud, +44.754.550.aacc, SteveBattle, ghard, Kalpa, RezaBfar,
15:04:18 <Zakim> ... ArthurK
15:04:27 <Ruben> Ruben has left #ldp
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15:04:49 <sandro> MacTed, note that is about expressibility, not RDF.   Full N3 and SPARQL WHERE include lots of things that are not, and never will be, RDF.
15:04:50 <SteveS> rssagent, generate minutes
15:04:56 <BartvanLeeuwen> BartvanLeeuwen has left #ldp
15:06:11 <SteveS> RRSAgent, generate minutes
15:06:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate SteveS
15:08:03 <oberger> sandro: well, maybe a localization thing ?
15:08:15 <sandro> SteveS, are you happy with ?
15:08:40 <oberger> oberger has joined #ldp
15:08:52 <sandro> oberger, more likely a setting I changed and forgot.
15:09:05 <oberger> sandro: same with LANG=C xchat
15:09:20 <sandro> the problem is I want comma when I'm not scribing and colon when I am scribing.
15:09:59 <SteveS> sandro, that would going to be my question if you were trying to change my scribe entries
15:10:19 <oberger> sandro, indeed, a preferences setting :-)
15:10:33 <oberger> well, I'll know what to do when in the next meeting
15:10:34 <SteveS> sandro, I'm fairly "happy"….guess I need to hack the few errors noted in there
15:11:23 <sandro> :-)
15:11:50 <MacTed> sandro - yes, I understand that the VENN is about what can be expressed in each serialization.  as has been noted, it was drawn a long time ago, and no longer (if it ever did) accurately depicts the differences between the serializations.  I think redrawing it with explicit focus on "how much of `All RDF` can be expressed in/with this serialization?" including new serializations (e.g., JSDON-LD) and updates of old (e.g., Turtle)
15:11:50 <MacTed>  would be useful.
15:12:53 <sandro> MacTed, my understanding is there's no need, as Turtle, RDFa, JSON-LD and N-Triples can all express all of RDF.  RDF/XML lacks a few bits that no one should ever put in their RDF anyway.
15:13:09 <oberger> s/RDF/RDF+XML/
15:14:08 <oberger> anyway... what's the ETA for implementations ? ;)
15:15:52 <MacTed> 1999  ;-)
15:20:15 <AndyS> The current RDF-WG has no plans to change RDF/XML.
15:20:35 <AndyS> (roughly - no one wants to touch it!)
15:20:59 <MacTed> I suppose the need I see for updating the VENN is that leaving it as is promotes continued incorrect understanding.
15:22:00 <MacTed> granted, it's no longer live-displayed in the N3 design issue ... but it's relatively well known and still live if you know to look for it
15:23:17 <oberger> :-)
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17:44:59 <gavinc> 7am Monday morning telecons suck
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19:23:59 <MacTed>
19:24:47 <MacTed> strange how Google doesn't count `"RDF/XML"` in the same way as it does `RDF XML`...
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