16:01:27 RRSAgent has joined #pointerevents 16:01:27 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/12/18-pointerevents-irc 16:01:37 Zakim, [IPcaller] is Olli_Pettay 16:01:37 +Olli_Pettay; got it 16:01:38 jrossi2 has joined #pointerevents 16:01:48 Zakim, nick smaug is Olli_Pettay 16:01:48 ok, smaug, I now associate you with Olli_Pettay 16:01:50 RRSAgent, make log public 16:01:55 RRSAgent, make minutes 16:01:55 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/18-pointerevents-minutes.html ArtB 16:01:57 Zakim, nick rbyers is Rick_Byers 16:01:57 sorry, rbyers, I do not see a party named 'Rick_Byers' 16:02:04 Present+ Rick_Byers 16:02:15 Scribe: Art 16:02:19 zakim, Present+ Rick_Byers 16:02:19 I don't understand 'Present+ Rick_Byers', rbyers 16:02:20 ScribeNick: ArtB 16:02:25 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2012OctDec/0109.html 16:02:39 Date: 18 December 2012 16:02:41 +[Microsoft] 16:02:47 Chair: Art 16:02:48 mbrubeck: ping 16:02:55 Meeting: Pointer Events WG Voice Conference 16:03:32 Present: Art_Barstow, Rick_Byers, Jacob_Rossi, Asir_Vedamuthu, Olli_Pettay 16:03:59 +Doug_Schepers 16:04:00 Zakim, nick rbyers is Rick_Byers 16:04:01 sorry, rbyers, I do not see a party named 'Rick_Byers' 16:04:11 Present+ Doug_Schepers 16:04:28 Topic: Getting started 16:04:36 AB: need a scribe (cheat sheet ) 16:05:00 Scribe+ Rick 16:05:08 ScribeNick: rbyers 16:05:10 ++rbyers 16:05:15 asir has joined #pointerevents 16:05:29 AB: draft agenda posted yesterday http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2012OctDec/0077.html. Any change requests? 16:06:27 Topic: pointer events bugs 16:06:35 -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=PointerEventsWG&component=Pointer%20Events%20specification&resolution=---&list_id=2680 16:06:50 asir_ has joined #pointerevents 16:07:09 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20107 16:07:19 Topic: Bug 20107 - eraser button for penb 16:07:32 Jacob: Asir sent out proposal for actual value to use 16:07:34 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2012OctDec/0113.html 16:08:03 Jacob: just use the next button value 16:08:12 Cathy has joined #pointerevents 16:08:20 ... USB spec does call it the eraser button, probably makes sense to re-use that term here 16:08:29 + +1.781.266.aabb 16:08:35 zakim, aabb is me 16:08:35 +Cathy; got it 16:08:37 ... Any objections? 16:08:41 Present+ Cathy_Chan 16:09:05 RESOLUTION: Add button value named 'eraser' 16:09:22 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20221 16:09:25 —> per Asir' proposal in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2012OctDec/0113.html 16:09:35 s/Asir'/Asir's/ 16:09:45 Topic: Bug 20221 - mechanism for creating PointerEvent instances 16:09:57 Jacob: just gap in original proposal - thought dictionary was actually there 16:10:03 http://html5labs.interoperabilitybridges.com/dom4events/#constructors 16:10:23 ... pattern originates in DOM4, above example suggests how to do it for events 16:10:28 ... but not yet an actual deliverable 16:10:48 ... so can't define dictionary for pointer events that inherits from dictionary for mouse events 16:11:02 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2012OctDec/0117.html 16:11:08 ... But we could completely define the dictionary now, and inherit in the future to collapse into one? 16:11:38 Art: Believe current charter of webapps includes DOM4 events, and there is an editors draft 16:11:48 ... but no first public working draft yet 16:11:57 Jacob: concern is creating normative dependency on that 16:12:32 D4Events ED: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/d4e/ 16:12:33 Art: OK with dependency on DOM3 events for now 16:13:02 Jacob: if there is no functional difference then we can update our spec in errata 16:13:22 Olli: order of properties may be an issue 16:13:36 Jacob: I put them in order for inheritance chain 16:14:06 ... but I can check the details. Probably just a matter of making sure that the order we specify in PE spec, matches how they'd come out via inheritance 16:14:28 Olli: doesn't matter what order they are in in the spec, what matters is how the implementation orders them 16:14:35 Jacob: OK, I can check that 16:14:52 -> D4E Editor's Draft: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/d4e/raw-file/tip/source_respec.htm 16:14:59 Jacob: don't think D4 spec specifies this 16:15:05 Olli: It's in the WebIDL spec 16:15:14 ... inheritance may inmply a different order 16:16:16 ACTION: jrossi Determine if WebIDL permits us to define our dictionary in a way compatibile with future inheritance from DOM4 mouse event dictionary 16:16:17 Created ACTION-10 - Determine if WebIDL permits us to define our dictionary in a way compatibile with future inheritance from DOM4 mouse event dictionary [on Jacob Rossi - due 2012-12-25]. 16:16:47 Jacob: If we did define in relation to DOM4 events, what is the process? 16:17:34 Art: Ideally we'd be at least one stage behind in maturity level. Eg. could prevent us from going to REC status until DOM4 events is CR 16:18:22 "The order of the dictionary members on a given dictionary is such that inherited dictionary members are ordered before non-inherited members, and the dictionary members on the one dictionary definition (including any partial dictionary definitions) are ordered lexicographically by the Unicode codepoints that comprise their identifiers. " 16:18:50 Doug: if you have a normative dependency you're not supposed to move forward, but W3C is examining this. I think we're relatively safe here. We could wait until last call to see if we have an issue. 16:19:14 ... there are options, will only bite us post-CR 16:19:47 http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#idl-dictionaries 16:19:53 Jacob: OK, thanks. If there's no issue I'd still prefer not to take a dependency 16:19:58 Olli: I think there is an issue 16:20:07 Jacob: OK, so we may just have to take the dependency and worry about it later 16:21:19 RESOLUTION: Will add dictionary for event creation. This will add a dependency on DOM4 events, pending confirmation that there is a functional difference between inheritance and flattened dictionaries. 16:21:35 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2012OctDec/0114.html 16:21:44 Topic: Bug 20219 - Making pointerType a string 16:21:57 Jacob: change made in spec with table of normative values 16:22:36 ... put in suggested text: 16:22:37 "If a user agent supports pointer device types other than those listed above, the value of pointerType SHOULD be vendor prefixed to avoid conflicting names for different types of devices. Future specifications MAY provide additional normative values for other device types." 16:22:38 ""If a user agent supports pointer device types other than those listed above, the value of pointerType SHOULD be vendor prefixed to avoid conflicting names for different types of devices. Future specifications MAY provide additional normative values for other device types." 16:23:34 Jacob: any concerns over 'SHOULD' here? 16:23:57 Art: this could be an informative note, but this is fine too 16:24:16 Any objections to proposed text in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2012OctDec/0114.html? 16:24:21 None 16:25:38 ACTION: jacob implement the proposal for bug 20219 as proposed in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2012OctDec/0114.html 16:25:38 Created ACTION-11 - Implement the proposal for bug 20219 as proposed in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2012OctDec/0114.html [on Jacob Rossi - due 2012-12-25]. 16:26:00 RESOLUTION: Incorporate text from email 0114.html into spec - custom pointerTypes SHOULD be vendor prefixed 16:26:07 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2012OctDec/0118.html 16:26:20 Topic: hardware timestamps - bug 20220 16:26:27 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20220 16:26:40 http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webperf/raw-file/tip/specs/HighResolutionTime/Overview.html 16:27:19 Jacob: specifies a timestamp in milliseconds with accuracy up to 1/1000th of an ms 16:27:26 ... type change makes perfect sense 16:28:14 ... discussion about whether all DOM events should add such an timestamp 16:28:33 ... fine as long as defined as defined as hardware time instead of dispatch time 16:30:14 Rick: that was definiately the intention (flackr started this work for touch performance - exactly the scenario envisioned by the current PE spec text) 16:30:32 Jacob: Ok, sounds good 16:30:57 Propose removing hwTimestamp from this spec, but we'd come back if there was an issue getting it added to DOM4 events 16:31:00 No objections 16:32:39 RESOLUTION: remove hwTimestamp from PE spec (under expectation it will get added to all DOM events) 16:34:32 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20236 16:34:45 Topic: Bug 20236 - Is button value -1 impossible? 16:35:07 Jacob: Olli pointed out that button is technically unsigned, so -1 is invalid 16:35:34 ... Don't want to churn DOM3 spec 16:35:50 ... Doesn't seem to be an interop problem in practice for this to be -1 16:36:03 ... So propose that PE change the definition to signed 16:37:06 Olli: Would prefer to change DOM3 event here 16:37:11 ... but do we really need a negative value? 16:37:31 http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/raw-file/tip/pointerEvents.html#chorded-button-interactions 16:38:04 Jacob: idea is to optimize for least common denominator 16:38:10 zakim, who is here? 16:38:10 On the phone I see jrossi, Art_Barstow, Olli_Pettay, +1.519.513.aaaa, [Microsoft], Doug_Schepers, Cathy 16:38:12 On IRC I see Cathy, asir_, jrossi2, RRSAgent, rbyers, Zakim, mbrubeck, smaug, scott_gonzalez, ArtB, shepazu, trackbot, dfreedm 16:38:14 ... want to be able to write for mouse and have it work with touch 16:38:17 Present+ Cathy_Chan 16:38:19 Zakim, aaaa is me 16:38:19 +rbyers; got it 16:38:25 RRSAgent, make minutes 16:38:25 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/18-pointerevents-minutes.html ArtB 16:38:44 zakim, [Microsoft] is me 16:38:44 +asir_; got it 16:38:47 RRSAgent, make log Public 16:39:15 RRSAgent, make minutes 16:39:15 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/18-pointerevents-minutes.html ArtB 16:39:26 ... mouse behaves as a contact, subsequent up/down just alter the button state 16:39:40 ... but DOM3 says that button is only valid on mousedown 16:39:48 ... so use -1 as a sentinal value 16:40:02 ... alternately could have a 'button state change' event 16:40:45 Olli: worried about libraries seeing a change in behavior on button 16:41:05 Jacob: don't think -1 should cause any interop problem 16:43:19 correction. Jacob: don't think changing unsigned to signed for MouseEvent would have any impact on library 16:43:33 ... only way to test is creating synthetic event with negative value, but no interop here 16:44:10 ... we're not actually ever going to have a negative value for MouseEvent, only PointerEvent - so can't break libraries that way 16:44:29 Olli: it just seems ugly to redefine a property here 16:44:41 Jacob: What if we changed DOM3 events instead? 16:44:48 Olli: That would be cleaner 16:45:45 ACTION: jrossi Ask DOM3 editor whether button could be changed from unsigned to signed without resetting last call. 16:45:46 Created ACTION-12 - Ask DOM3 editor whether button could be changed from unsigned to signed without resetting last call. [on Jacob Rossi - due 2012-12-25]. 16:46:09 Jacob: Could make an argument that it's safe, but worried about it 16:46:37 ... If it would be a big problem for DOM3 events then we'll bring up changing it in PointerEvents again here 16:47:04 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20218 16:48:57 Topic: bug 20218 - Extent pointer events to support raw trackpad data 16:49:42 Rick: idea is that in the future web apps might want to get raw touch data from trackpads (eg. for defining it's own gestures) 16:50:12 Jacob: we actually considered this in the origina PE design. Currently no standard (non-driver-specific) way to do this on Windows, but that could change. 16:50:33 Rick: MacOS permits readings raw trackpad touch data 16:51:00 Jacob: not just about trackpads on laptops, but also other hardware like large Wacom touchpads - 'indirect touch' 16:51:31 ... We thought about it in IE10, but have no plans to do it anytime soon 16:51:42 ... May be a good thing for PointerEvents 2 16:52:03 Proposal: create wishlist for v2 features, and add this one 16:52:18 no objections 16:53:18 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20311 16:53:24 RESOLUTION: Mark trackpad bug 20218 as resolved Later for PE v2 16:53:41 http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/raw-file/tip/pointerEvents.html#the-touch-action-css-property 16:53:50 Topic: Bug 20133 - clarify touchAction applies only to pointerDown 16:54:11 Jacob: this is really already covered by the spec 16:54:28 ... but is a good idea to make a tweak to make it more clear 16:54:57 ... would prefer to do it at the same time as other touchAction changes in discussion on list 16:54:59 All agreed 16:55:14 ArtB: yes, we're both on Chrome (different office though) 17:07:25 Topic: AoB 17:07:36 .. Next call will be Jan 8, 2013 17:08:14 -Olli_Pettay 17:08:16 -rbyers 17:08:17 -jrossi 17:08:17 -Art_Barstow 17:08:18 Happy Holidays!! 17:08:19 -Doug_Schepers 17:08:22 -Cathy 17:08:27 Doug: please use the mailing list for discussion until our next meeting 17:08:31 RRSAgent, make minutes 17:08:31 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/18-pointerevents-minutes.html ArtB 17:08:48 -asir_ 17:08:50 RWC_PEWG()11:00AM has ended 17:08:50 Attendees were jrossi, Art_Barstow, +1.519.513.aaaa, Olli_Pettay, Doug_Schepers, +1.781.266.aabb, Cathy, rbyers, asir_ 17:13:23 Scribe: Rick 17:13:30 RRSAgent, make minutes 17:13:30 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/18-pointerevents-minutes.html ArtB 17:37:33 zakim, bye 17:37:33 Zakim has left #pointerevents 17:37:38 rrsagent, bye 17:37:38 I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/12/18-pointerevents-actions.rdf : 17:37:38 ACTION: jrossi Determine if WebIDL permits us to define our dictionary in a way compatibile with future inheritance from DOM4 mouse event dictionary [1] 17:37:38 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/12/18-pointerevents-irc#T16-16-16 17:37:38 ACTION: jacob implement the proposal for bug 20219 as proposed in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2012OctDec/0114.html [2] 17:37:38 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/12/18-pointerevents-irc#T16-25-38 17:37:38 ACTION: jrossi Ask DOM3 editor whether button could be changed from unsigned to signed without resetting last call. [3] 17:37:38 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/12/18-pointerevents-irc#T16-45-45