15:37:46 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-media
15:37:46 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/12/11-html-media-irc
15:37:48 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:37:48 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #html-media
15:37:50 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 63342
15:37:50 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 23 minutes
15:37:51 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Media Task Force Teleconference
15:37:51 <trackbot> Date: 11 December 2012
15:38:09 <adrianba> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2012Dec/0003.html
15:52:04 <adrianba> zakim, this will be html
15:52:04 <Zakim> "html" matches WAI_PFWG(HTML_TF)11:00AM, HTML_WG()11:00AM, and HTML_WG(HTMLT)11:00AM, adrianba
15:52:17 <adrianba> zakim, this will be html_WG
15:52:17 <Zakim> "html_WG" matches HTML_WG()11:00AM, and HTML_WG(HTMLT)11:00AM, adrianba
15:52:21 <adrianba> zakim, this will be html_WG()
15:52:21 <Zakim> ok, adrianba; I see HTML_WG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
15:56:54 <Zakim> HTML_WG()11:00AM has now started
15:57:00 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
15:57:09 <adrianba> zakim, [Microsoft] is me
15:57:11 <Zakim> +adrianba; got it
15:59:23 <pal> pal has joined #html-media
15:59:26 <Zakim> + +1.925.984.aaaa
15:59:49 <joesteele> joesteele has joined #html-media
15:59:58 <johnsim> johnsim has joined #html-media
16:00:40 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:00:43 <Zakim> +markw
16:01:00 <Zakim> +ddorwin
16:01:02 <Zakim> +pal
16:01:04 <adrianba> rrsagent, make minutes
16:01:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/11-html-media-minutes.html adrianba
16:01:09 <ddorwin> ddorwin has joined #html-media
16:01:11 <adrianba> rrsagent, make logs public
16:01:26 <adrianba> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:01:26 <Zakim> On the phone I see adrianba, +1.925.984.aaaa, [Microsoft], markw, ddorwin, pal
16:01:57 <johnsim> zakim, zakim, aaaa is me
16:01:57 <Zakim> I don't understand 'zakim, aaaa is me', johnsim
16:02:06 <johnsim> zakim, aaaa is me
16:02:06 <Zakim> +johnsim; got it
16:02:41 <Zakim> +??P40
16:02:54 <chriho> Zakim, ??P40 is me
16:02:54 <Zakim> +chriho; got it
16:04:13 <adrianba> ScribeNick: johnsim
16:04:50 <johnsim> zakim, who is here
16:04:50 <Zakim> johnsim, you need to end that query with '?'
16:05:02 <adrianba> zakim, who is one the phone?
16:05:02 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, adrianba.
16:05:09 <adrianba> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:05:09 <Zakim> On the phone I see adrianba, johnsim, [Microsoft], markw, ddorwin, pal, chriho
16:05:32 <plh> plh has joined #html-media
16:05:41 <Zakim> +Plh
16:05:50 <johnsim> zakim, [Microsoft] is me
16:05:51 <Zakim> +johnsim; got it
16:05:59 <adrianba> zakim, johnsim is joesteele
16:05:59 <Zakim> +joesteele; got it
16:06:12 <adrianba> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:06:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see adrianba, joesteele, johnsim.a, markw, ddorwin, pal, chriho, Plh
16:06:43 <johnsim> topic 2: previous meeting minutes
16:06:58 <adrianba> http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-html-wg-minutes.html#item05 -> Lyon F2F
16:07:23 <adrianba> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2012Nov/0013.html -> Nov 27
16:07:47 <adrianba> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2012Nov/att-0006/EME_open_bugs_2012-11-1.html -> Lyon bug list
16:08:00 <johnsim> adrianba: bug list is earlier version we discussed in lyon  - this is the list of bugs we actually went through
16:08:15 <johnsim> adrianba: any comments on minutes?
16:08:28 <johnsim> adrianba: hearing none - move on
16:08:35 <johnsim> Review Action Items
16:08:48 <adrianba> ACTION-7?
16:08:48 <trackbot> ACTION-7 -- Joe Steele to provide a well-defined description of the uses cases along with some diagrams showing the various parties. -- due 2012-12-11 -- OPEN
16:08:48 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/media/track/actions/7
16:09:23 <johnsim> Joe: a little discussion on use cases i sent out, just reading through them now. Is David on the call?
16:09:46 <ddorwin> yes
16:10:02 <johnsim> Adrianba: worth spending a few minutes on this now
16:10:06 <acolwell> acolwell has joined #html-media
16:10:30 <johnsim> joesteele: use cases all boil down to the same problem - content URI of some kind - playlist or embedded downloadable content...
16:10:44 <Zakim> +Aaron_Colwell
16:10:56 <johnsim> joesteele: don't have the context - the license server has enough information to provide that back, but no mechanism to provide that back
16:10:57 <adrianba> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2012Dec/0008.html -> Action-7 use cases
16:11:12 <johnsim> joesteele: no wayto say "authentication failed and here is what I want you to do"
16:11:20 <johnsim> s/wayto/way/
16:11:47 <johnsim> joesteele: one way to solve, key message with URL and some parameters, but not sure what best way to solve this problem would be, just that the problem exists
16:12:04 <johnsim> joesteele: two ways - in the key request enough info to tell the CDM how to authenticate
16:12:37 <BobLund> BobLund has joined #html-media
16:12:41 <johnsim> joesteele: in the more general case, i believe we need to standardize how they communicate, like a URL redirect for the appropriate authentication server
16:13:02 <johnsim> joesteele: was everyone able to see diagrams i put up? Not sure if they were published correctly.
16:13:11 <johnsim> ddorwin: i was able to see them
16:13:24 <Zakim> +??P51
16:13:25 <johnsim> adrianba: david, want to respond?
16:13:43 <BobLund> zakim, ??p51 is me
16:13:43 <Zakim> +BobLund; got it
16:13:44 <johnsim> ddorwin: continue on the mailing list and then pick it up next time, to give others a chance to review
16:14:09 <adrianba> close action-7
16:14:09 <trackbot> ACTION-7 Provide a well-defined description of the uses cases along with some diagrams showing the various parties. closed
16:14:12 <johnsim> adrianba: close that action as being done - discussion on the list - and continue as david said and continue on next EME call
16:14:52 <johnsim> ddorwin: one thing, i asked what specifically what to change, not decided, so we have examples but we need - what type of thing and where; e.g. something on keymsg
16:15:22 <johnsim> mark watson: what to include in the First working draft
16:15:31 <johnsim> regarding secure key release
16:15:56 <johnsim> mark: was removed when we went to the object oriented model
16:16:30 <johnsim> adrianba: i think if we - just jump ahead to that for a second - the first public working draft - as we discussed on last week call for MSE
16:16:58 <johnsim> adrianba: paul wanted us to spend time thinking about what bugs must be fixed before calling for consensus to go to FPWD
16:17:19 <johnsim> adrianba: complete in terms of scope it covered and reasonable to review and not likely to change substantially again
16:17:46 <johnsim> adrianba: my view is we need to make a decision if secure key is in the spec - i think we need to make progress on that before FPWD
16:18:24 <johnsim> mark watson: agree. concern in Lyon - were implementation concerns - would those requirements be relaxed so people are comfortable going to FPWD
16:18:24 <ddorwin> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17199
16:18:54 <adrianba> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&columnlist=assigned_to%2Ctarget_milestone%2Cpriority%2Cbug_status%2Cresolution%2Cshort_desc%2Cchangeddate&component=Encrypted%20Media%20Extensions&product=HTML%20WG&query_format=advanced&order=target_milestone%20DESC%2Cpriority%2Cbug_id&list_id=3120 -> Bugs with milestone
16:19:02 <johnsim> adrianba: David made a start at marking bugs he thought we needed to fix (this link, above)
16:19:11 <johnsim> adrianba: i think we should add 17199
16:19:17 <johnsim> ddorwin: i will do that right now
16:19:55 <adrianba> zakim, who is noisy?
16:20:05 <Zakim> adrianba, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ddorwin (2%), Aaron_Colwell (45%)
16:20:11 <johnsim> ddorwin: one other quick item related to this, asked off line, optional feature, should we cover it in its own section, in this stage, or add the text in each section.
16:20:18 <adrianba> zakim, mute Aaron_Colwell
16:20:18 <Zakim> Aaron_Colwell should now be muted
16:20:20 <johnsim> ddorwin: opinions on that?
16:20:55 <johnsim> mark watson: preference to keep in one section - mild preference
16:21:15 <johnsim> adrianba: do you have an opinion, david
16:22:24 <johnsim> ddorwin: no - gets messy referencing the main media spec, when we try to integrate with 5.1, it is a mild concern - probably we will discuss this more and decide based upon that
16:23:08 <johnsim> adrianba: back to the agenda - we should spend some time working through the actions from the Lyon face-to-face, to make sure we are on the same page as we did last week for MSE
16:23:11 <ddorwin> above was using EME spec referencing the main spec as an example. We can look at Mark's proposed text and the number of references and decide from there.
16:23:16 <johnsim> Actions from Face to Face meeting
16:23:41 <adrianba> http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-html-wg-minutes.html#item05 -> Minutes
16:24:06 <adrianba> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2012Nov/att-0006/EME_open_bugs_2012-11-1.html -> List of bugs
16:24:24 <Zakim> + +1.858.677.aabb
16:24:42 <adrianba> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20335
16:24:49 <johnsim> adrianba: bug 20325
16:25:02 <johnsim> s/325/335/
16:26:01 <johnsim> joesteele: is the implication - the application would have to have a list of media keys and call them in turn?
16:26:26 <johnsim> adrianba: always our expectation that apps would need to query for the specific formats that were supported by this spec
16:26:28 <ddorwin> q+
16:27:18 <johnsim> ddorwin: do we need mediakeys object for each system - the answer is no because it is a static function - takes same parameters as canplaytype() - no change in functionality
16:27:31 <johnsim> joesteele: how would the static be used without knowing ahead of time
16:28:04 <johnsim> ddorwin: you would say mediakeys.istypesupported(xxx) with codec if you want - so you don't need to have created mediakeys to support this
16:28:11 <johnsim> joesteele: got it
16:28:39 <johnsim> adrianba: other change, since a boolean, will not return probably or maybe, which does clean some stuff up,
16:28:47 <johnsim> q+
16:28:57 <adrianba> ack d
16:29:37 <adrianba> ack next
16:30:31 <adrianba> johnsim: why isn't the same ambiguity of canPlayType needed for isTypeSupported?
16:30:38 <acolwell> q+
16:30:42 <Zakim> - +1.858.677.aabb
16:30:46 <johnsim> ddorwin: saying "maybe, probably are "True" and "False" is there is no shot at it - confusion of maybe and probably - mediasource has the same issue, mimetype and optional codec
16:30:50 <Zakim> -markw
16:31:20 <adrianba> zakim, unmute Aaron_Colwell
16:31:20 <Zakim> Aaron_Colwell should no longer be muted
16:31:23 <adrianba> ack next
16:31:23 <johnsim> ddorwin: with mediasource can query canplaytype() - with EME the codec may be implemented by the key system -
16:32:21 <johnsim> aaron: idea of the boolean is to represent maybe and probably because no difference in whether you will try to play it or not, istypesupported is asking does the CDM support that mimetype
16:32:47 <johnsim> ddorwin: there are some differences there - mediasource more important mimetype is supported, where the codecs might matter a bunch on EME
16:33:18 <johnsim> aaron: MSE can do a check, never report TRUE when canplaytype is not returning probably or maybe, but if it returns true, doesn't guarentee playable
16:33:43 <johnsim> ddorwin: maybe we should think more about this and not be strictly playable with MSE
16:33:53 <johnsim> aaron: why is key system and codec different
16:34:15 <johnsim> aaron: key system and codec together, isn't that sufficient
16:34:33 <johnsim> ddorwin: may be profiles you cannot for sure play
16:34:34 <adrianba> q+
16:34:54 <johnsim> aaron: MSE willing to accept these things, do you need something as a stronger true/false determination?
16:35:13 <johnsim> ddorwin: possible codec can be played unencrypted but cannot be played encrypted
16:35:20 <Zakim> -Plh
16:35:50 <johnsim> ddorwin: if you have diff decoders, main line and baseline, cdm can only do baseline, then saying i can play that codec is not necessarily true
16:35:52 <adrianba> ack next
16:36:54 <johnsim> adrianba: i think the goal here is to provide - if the user agent can play a particular type but EME doesn't support that at all, this is the mechanism to understand that
16:37:23 <johnsim> adrianba: maybe from canplaytype() for the media IN GENERAL from the user agent, isn't it likely you would get the same maybe from EME?
16:37:37 <johnsim> adrianba: only way to know for certain something will play is try to play it.
16:37:54 <johnsim> adrianba: so example, user agent supports without EME, but not with EME
16:38:15 <johnsim> aaron: canplaytype() would say MAYBE, EME would say False
16:38:35 <johnsim> aaron: slightly different than MSE, true or maybe is mainly about the codecs and formats
16:39:02 <johnsim> aaron: that relationship may be reversed, with extra information from keysystem, can't play this
16:39:53 <johnsim> adrianba: why is that different, aaron said you may end up with EME iwith type supported more often returned FALSE, but that could happen with MSE if support was only for one format over a lot of different formats
16:40:23 <johnsim> adrianba: the question is whether the combination is supported at all, trying to play media and discovering you couldn't - want to find out as soon as you can
16:40:38 <johnsim> aaron: adding an extra constraint, EME you are not -
16:41:05 <johnsim> ddorwin: the codecs are in the CDM so they are not the same as the ones in the media stack - end up with false positive "TRUES" -
16:41:08 <joesteele> +q
16:41:27 <johnsim> ddorwin: media source container concern, ignores codec, EME needs to care about container and codec
16:41:32 <joesteele> -q
16:41:34 <BobLund> q+
16:42:12 <johnsim> aaron: i think if the string looks like it is valid from EME, with static information, it is okay to return true, but canplaytype() should say MAYBE
16:42:21 <johnsim> ddorwin: canplaytype is not useful for EME
16:42:54 <johnsim> boblund: you are saying UA could support codec X that doesn't support EME content, and canplaytype would return probably, but CDM would not support encrypted content?
16:42:58 <johnsim> ddorwin: correct
16:43:12 <johnsim> boblund: then EME breaks canplaytype()
16:43:23 <johnsim> aaron: still don't understand why this is diff
16:43:51 <johnsim> aaron: would check profile in mimetype and validate if keysystem supports that - need strict mimetype checking
16:44:13 <joesteele> I have to drop off -- good discussion though -- looking forward to the notes
16:44:20 <johnsim> ddorwin: only imlementation  i know is chromes, avc.anything, says probably, avc.foo would say "sure"
16:44:23 <Zakim> -joesteele
16:45:11 <johnsim> adrianba: i think we need to move on - is type supported, do we need to return similar information as canplaytype() and continue discussion offline
16:45:39 <adrianba> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17673
16:45:41 <johnsim> adrianba: next is bug 17673
16:46:30 <johnsim> adrianba: bug needs to be reassigned to one of the editors to be implemented
16:47:05 <johnsim> ddorwin: some discussion about generalizing it to all MP4 - David Singer - johnsim and david to talk
16:47:16 <adrianba> ACTION: johnsim to discuss 17673 with dsinger
16:47:16 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find johnsim. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/media/track/users>.
16:47:41 <adrianba> ACTION: jsimmons to discuss 17673 with dsinger
16:47:41 <trackbot> Created ACTION-8 - Discuss 17673 with dsinger [on John Simmons - due 2012-12-18].
16:48:23 <johnsim> adrianba: add the text and then tweak it so we can make some forward process
16:48:59 <adrianba> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17682
16:49:03 <johnsim> adrianba: next one is 17682
16:50:28 <johnsim> ddorwin: may be documented in minutes change to IETF required to us JSON solution
16:51:26 <johnsim> adrianba: mark suggested we follow reference to this and paul's reply was if this didn't get --- wasn't progress externally we could include an appendix with the details that we could then remove - if we created an appendix for details, and finalized in IETF, we could remove from our appendix
16:52:12 <johnsim> adrianba: i think the action is we need a concrete proposal for text, we have the one from john, we need the text for JSON, the question is go with the text we have?
16:53:34 <adrianba> ACTION: jsimmons to discuss 17682 with markw and propose text for JSON solution
16:53:35 <trackbot> Created ACTION-9 - Discuss 17682 with markw and propose text for JSON solution [on John Simmons - due 2012-12-18].
16:54:33 <adrianba> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17660
16:54:59 <johnsim> adrianba: then, can we quickly discuss 17470, which we resolved - no comments on that, so next one is 17660 - that is the action we discussed at beginning of the call
16:55:04 <adrianba> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17203
16:56:21 <johnsim> adrianba: 17203 - and we concluded that mandatory - easy to do and needed for key release - keeping session id was dependent on whether we supported secure key release - which mark identified as a consideration for first public working draft
16:56:38 <johnsim> ddorwin: make this mandatory for supporting secure key release and optional otherwise?
16:57:17 <johnsim> adrianba: i think what we would said was we wouldn't decide until we decide what to do with secure key release.
16:57:41 <johnsim> ddorwin: not sure how deciding how we implement secure key release impacts that
16:58:13 <johnsim> ddorwin: i also mentioned that you might use it as a custom attribute, media key session, so we might not need it necessarily
16:58:31 <johnsim> adrianba: if generated by the CDM need to be in a predictable place
16:58:35 <johnsim> ddorwin: right
16:58:58 <johnsim> ddorwin: paul questioned if consistency was enough to make it required
16:59:27 <johnsim> ddorwin: so question stands regardless of determination of secure key release
16:59:36 <adrianba> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18531
16:59:38 <johnsim> adrianba: 18531
17:00:01 <johnsim> naming for addkey() and were there any further questions on changing it to "update
17:00:03 <johnsim> "
17:00:10 <adrianba> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17199
17:00:26 <johnsim> adrianba: 17199 which is the key release issue which we know we need to cover
17:01:14 <adrianba> MediaKeys attachment is a method instead of property
17:01:21 <ddorwin> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20337
17:02:37 <johnsim> adrianba: so okay - we are out of time - last thing we had was progression to FPWD which we discussed earlier - target milestone  - identify the bugs that need to be fixed to get to FPWD, folks have others they think need to be fixed do so on the reflector so we can settle on the list before the next meeting
17:02:44 <johnsim> adrianba: any final comments?
17:03:07 <Zakim> -Aaron_Colwell
17:03:08 <Zakim> -adrianba
17:03:08 <Zakim> -ddorwin
17:03:10 <Zakim> -BobLund
17:03:11 <Zakim> -chriho
17:03:11 <Zakim> -pal
17:03:15 <johnsim> adrianba: not hearing any, adjourned.
17:03:21 <Zakim> -johnsim.a
17:03:22 <Zakim> HTML_WG()11:00AM has ended
17:03:22 <Zakim> Attendees were adrianba, +1.925.984.aaaa, markw, ddorwin, pal, chriho, Plh, joesteele, Aaron_Colwell, BobLund, +1.858.677.aabb
17:03:26 <adrianba> rrsagent, make minutes
17:03:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/11-html-media-minutes.html adrianba
17:03:34 <johnsim> thanks
17:05:06 <adrianba> s/ScribeNick: johnsim/scribe: johnsim/
17:05:09 <adrianba> rrsagent, make minutes
17:05:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/11-html-media-minutes.html adrianba
17:07:19 <adrianba> Chair: Adrian Bateman
17:07:27 <adrianba> rrsagent, make minutes
17:07:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/11-html-media-minutes.html adrianba
17:11:19 <adrianba> s/topic 2:/topic:/
17:11:30 <adrianba> s/Review Action Items/Topic: Review Action Items/
17:11:42 <adrianba> s/regarding secure key release/TOPIC: regarding secure key release/
17:12:03 <adrianba> s/Actions from Face to Face meeting/TOPIC: Actions from Face to Face meeting/
17:12:19 <adrianba> rrsagent, make minutes
17:12:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/11-html-media-minutes.html adrianba
19:00:29 <Zakim> Zakim has left #html-media
20:59:24 <ddorwin> ddorwin has joined #html-media