IRC log of ua on 2012-12-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:58:23 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
17:58:23 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/12/06-ua-irc
17:58:25 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
17:58:25 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
17:58:27 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
17:58:27 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
17:58:28 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
17:58:28 [trackbot]
Date: 06 December 2012
17:59:33 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
17:59:40 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
17:59:40 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
17:59:52 [jeanne]
zakim, who is here?
17:59:52 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Jeanne
17:59:54 [Zakim]
On IRC I see jeanne, Zakim, RRSAgent, JAllan, trackbot
18:01:13 [sharper]
sharper has joined #ua
18:01:48 [Zakim]
+Greg_Lowney
18:01:53 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
18:02:22 [Zakim]
+Jim_Allan
18:02:46 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:02:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/06-ua-minutes.html JAllan
18:02:54 [JAllan]
Agenda+ wrapping up levels
18:02:56 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Getting to Last Call -
18:02:57 [JAllan]
Conformance, definition of Levels, Action Items (nothing after 2012) all must be completed by Dec 20, clean up @@
18:02:59 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Scheduling a F2F
18:03:58 [Jan]
Jan has joined #ua
18:04:26 [Jan]
zakim, code?
18:04:26 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Jan
18:04:34 [jeanne]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2012/ED-UAAG20-20121206/
18:04:48 [Zakim]
+??P20
18:05:08 [Jan]
zakim, ??P20 is really Jan
18:05:08 [Zakim]
+Jan; got it
18:05:15 [Zakim]
+??P22
18:05:21 [sharper]
zakim, ??P22 is sharper
18:05:21 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
18:07:42 [JAllan]
chair: JimAllan, KellyFord
18:08:48 [sharper]
sorry
18:08:55 [sharper]
audio problems
18:11:15 [JAllan]
So we at the W3C WAI Research and Development Working Group have
18:11:17 [JAllan]
conducted a mobile symposium which is now moving to a W3C Note. As part
18:11:18 [JAllan]
of this we have a section for a Road Map of Future Mobile Accessibility.
18:11:20 [JAllan]
We would like to invite you all to contribute to our discussions on just
18:11:21 [JAllan]
what the Road Map is / should be; which we have arranged for 14:30 GMT
18:11:23 [JAllan]
on 12th December 2012 for 1 hour.
18:11:24 [sharper]
scribe: Harper_Simon
18:11:24 [sharper]
ScribeNick: sharper
18:11:35 [Zakim]
+Kim_Patch
18:12:14 [sharper]
zakim, agenda?
18:12:14 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
18:12:15 [Zakim]
1. wrapping up levels [from JAllan]
18:12:15 [Zakim]
2. Getting to Last Call - [from JAllan]
18:12:15 [Zakim]
3. Scheduling a F2F [from JAllan]
18:13:13 [sharper]
zakim, take up item 1
18:13:13 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "wrapping up levels" taken up [from JAllan]
18:14:05 [sharper]
JA: Reprising rationale for levels discussion. Orig goal to reduce the number of level A criteria - ended up increasing.
18:14:50 [sharper]
JA: Now time to move on - trying to make a perfect document 'perfect is the enemy of the good' [I love that quote!]
18:15:32 [sharper]
JA: Idea to go to Last Call in Jan - but now we need to extend to match reality and not aspiration.
18:15:55 [sharper]
JR: How far did we get through...
18:16:22 [sharper]
JA: to 2.3.4...
18:17:44 [sharper]
JR: not looked through others to see if I have any concerns - makes sense to wrap this up - but i'll whiz through myself and check I'm happy
18:17:59 [sharper]
JA: please all read - any issues send to the list
18:18:16 [sharper]
RESOLVED: Move on - any queries to the list
18:18:22 [sharper]
zakim, close item 1
18:18:22 [Zakim]
agendum 1, wrapping up levels, closed
18:18:23 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:18:23 [Zakim]
2. Getting to Last Call - [from JAllan]
18:18:28 [sharper]
zakim, take up item 3
18:18:28 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Scheduling a F2F" taken up [from JAllan]
18:19:25 [sharper]
Could we deal with comments in a F2F at CSUN or SSW
18:19:49 [sharper]
s/Could/JA: Could
18:19:52 [Zakim]
+ +1.425.883.aaaa
18:20:08 [JAllan]
SXSW March 8-12 2012
18:20:17 [sharper]
JR: I'd like SXSW
18:20:57 [sharper]
rrsagent, make logs public
18:20:57 [sharper]
rrsagent, draft minutes
18:20:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/06-ua-minutes.html sharper
18:21:59 [sharper]
KF: Approval to go to CSUN
18:24:23 [sharper]
JA: any opinions on F2F Venue?
18:26:13 [JAllan]
what about Web4All conference in Rio at the beginning of May
18:33:16 [sharper]
General discussion re venues
18:33:42 [sharper]
RESOLVED: Will keep discussing venues.
18:33:48 [sharper]
zakim, close item 3
18:33:48 [Zakim]
agendum 3, Scheduling a F2F, closed
18:33:49 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
18:33:49 [Zakim]
2. Getting to Last Call - [from JAllan]
18:33:56 [sharper]
zakim, take up item 2
18:33:56 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Getting to Last Call -" taken up [from JAllan]
18:34:10 [sharper]
JA: what do we have to have done.
18:34:51 [sharper]
JS: last call is our way of saying we think the document is done. An opportunity for people to discuss patents etc
18:35:09 [sharper]
JS: all other steps are about public comments and feedback.
18:35:19 [KimPatch]
KimPatch has joined #ua
18:35:20 [sharper]
JA: dont have to have test suites done?
18:35:50 [sharper]
JS: We start writing test suite at last call - then go to candidate recommendation
18:36:12 [sharper]
GL: are we supposed to be confident that there are implementations for everything?
18:36:51 [sharper]
JS: we say don, then comments, the candidate rec, call for test implementations and that they work
18:37:26 [sharper]
JS: have to have 2 implementations per SC, and therefore have a test suite
18:37:33 [sharper]
JS: the proposed rec, then rec.
18:37:47 [sharper]
JS: we don't worry much about Prop Rec
18:37:56 [JAllan]
s/say don/say done
18:38:51 [sharper]
JS: before CR we need to have a good idea of implementations - we can declare SCs at risk if unsure - then we can remove items if imps don't exist means they can be removed without a time penalty.
18:39:31 [sharper]
KP: seeing apps implemented that have things that fulfil SCs - would be great to have a wiki to start to pile examples on.
18:39:38 [sharper]
GL: we have one on the wiki now
18:40:04 [sharper]
KP: makes it easier to add this now - explosion of useful stuff in terms of mobile
18:40:24 [sharper]
JA: wiki off our home page
18:40:29 [sharper]
JA: and questions?
18:40:51 [sharper]
JA: deal with any outstanding @@ in doc
18:41:08 [sharper]
JA: review doc - have most IERs done - 2 left
18:42:12 [sharper]
JA: these are via JR proposals - new 2.3.x and 2.8.1 created another 2.8 <- KP wrote examples
18:42:30 [sharper]
JA: additional don't have intents
18:42:54 [sharper]
KP: new intent is there for 2.8.1 - talking about it last time
18:43:03 [sharper]
JA: flag this on foresnics
18:43:14 [sharper]
JS: to flag this for Tuesday
18:43:43 [sharper]
JS: these aren't the new ones - clarification is occuring
18:43:55 [sharper]
rrsagent, draft minutes
18:43:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/06-ua-minutes.html sharper
18:44:42 [sharper]
KP: elaborates
18:45:40 [sharper]
From Minutes from the 15th
18:46:01 [KimPatch]
New SC:
18:46:03 [KimPatch]
2.8.1 Customize display of controls representing user interface commands,
18:46:04 [KimPatch]
functions, and extensions: The user can customize which user agent
18:46:06 [KimPatch]
commands, functions, and extensions are displayed within the user agent's
18:46:08 [KimPatch]
user interface as follows: (AA)
18:46:09 [KimPatch]
(a) Show: The user can choose to display any controls, which can include
18:46:11 [KimPatch]
user installed extensions, available within the user agent user interface.
18:46:13 [KimPatch]
It is acceptable to limit the total number of controls that are displayed
18:46:14 [KimPatch]
onscreen.
18:46:17 [KimPatch]
(b) Simplify: The user can simplify the default user interface by choosing
18:46:18 [KimPatch]
to display only commands essential for basic operation (e.g. by hiding
18:46:20 [KimPatch]
some control).
18:46:22 [KimPatch]
(c) Reposition: The user can choose to reposition individual controls
18:46:24 [KimPatch]
within containers (e.g. Toolbars or tool palettes), as well as reposition
18:46:26 [KimPatch]
the containers themselves to facilitate physical access (e.g. To minimize
18:46:28 [KimPatch]
hand travel on touch screens, or to facilitate preferred hand access on
18:46:30 [KimPatch]
handheld mobile devices).
18:46:32 [KimPatch]
(d) Assign Activation Keystrokes or Gestures: The user can choose to view,
18:46:33 [KimPatch]
assign or change default keystrokes or gestures used to activate controls.
18:46:35 [KimPatch]
(e) Reset: The user has the option to reset the containers and controls
18:46:36 [Greg]
Mark's email is at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012OctDec/0035.html
18:46:37 [KimPatch]
available to their original configuration.
18:47:12 [sharper]
JA: Action Items need doing
18:47:26 [jeanne]
action: Jeanne to update document with new SC for 2.8.1 and examples from Kim's proposals emails of 4 December http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012OctDec/0042.html
18:47:26 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-779 - Update document with new SC for 2.8.1 and examples from Kim's proposals emails of 4 December http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012OctDec/0042.html [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2012-12-13].
18:47:36 [sharper]
RESOLVED: the 2 IERs will be done in forensics
18:47:56 [sharper]
JA: will bash Action items after 2011
18:48:02 [sharper]
JA: 17 open
18:48:10 [sharper]
JA: can we all review and close
18:48:16 [JAllan]
open actions - http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/open
18:49:28 [sharper]
RESOLVED: All close actions at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/open?sort=due
18:49:34 [JAllan]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/Main_Page
18:52:10 [sharper]
JA: need to finish conformance section, and the explaination of the levels
18:52:30 [sharper]
s/JA/JA-JS
18:53:25 [JAllan]
zakim, agenda?
18:53:25 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
18:53:26 [Zakim]
2. Getting to Last Call - [from JAllan]
18:54:14 [sharper]
agenda+ Explanation of Levels
18:54:26 [sharper]
zakim, close item 2
18:54:26 [Zakim]
agendum 2, Getting to Last Call -, closed
18:54:27 [sharper]
zakim, take up item 4
18:54:27 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
18:54:27 [Zakim]
4. Explanation of Levels [from sharper]
18:54:27 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Explanation of Levels" taken up [from sharper]
18:57:32 [jeanne]
The UAAG 2.0 levels are designed to complement the levels of WCAG 2.0, A, AA, and AAA, where Level A provides remedies to the most severe accessibility problems for people with disabilities, and therefore is the highest priority for user agent developers.
18:57:32 [jeanne]
These levels are designed to allow companies to get the most out of developer hours by addressing the low hanging fruit first: Level A addresses serious user problems that draw a reasonable amount of
18:57:32 [jeanne]
developer time. Level AA addresses user problems that improve the experience of people with disabilities and may take more developer time to implement. Level AAA is reserved for user problems that may be more specialized or are challenging to implement.
18:57:33 [jeanne]
If a user finds 10 different actions he performs frequently cognitively
18:57:33 [jeanne]
difficult, physically difficult or very time-consuming, he may be
18:57:33 [jeanne]
overwhelmed. However, if eight of those actions require a reasonable
18:57:33 [jeanne]
amount of developer time for corporations to enable in a better way,
18:57:33 [jeanne]
fixing those eight may allow the user to handle the extra difficulty on
18:57:34 [jeanne]
the other two. This is not ideal, but it is practical.
18:57:34 [jeanne]
At the same time, if a company has a policy to dedicate a percentage of developer time to accessibility and this is not enough time to address everything, it is practical to complete as much as possible before the and work on some longer-term items iteratively to further improve the accessibility of the browser over time.
18:59:12 [jeanne]
Level A Success criteria address accessibility problems that block people
18:59:12 [jeanne]
with disabilities from interacting with the interface or content and are
18:59:12 [jeanne]
technically feasible for the vendor to implement
18:59:12 [jeanne]
Level AA success criteria provide accessibility solutions to people with
18:59:12 [jeanne]
diverse disabilities and are feasible to implement.
18:59:13 [jeanne]
Level AAA success criteria address accessibility for specific groups of
18:59:13 [jeanne]
people with disabilities and are challenging to implement.
19:01:00 [sharper]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MoSCoW_Method
19:06:35 [sharper]
General discussions on the explanation
19:08:52 [sharper]
discussion around terms 'ubiquitous' and 'block' - and time taken is also a block
19:08:53 [jeanne]
Level A Success criteria address accessibility problems that block people with disabilities from interacting with the interface or content; and are technically feasible for the vendor to implement; or are sufficiently common that they are ubiquitous and expected.
19:09:27 [sharper]
I like that one Jeanne!
19:12:11 [Greg]
Level A Success criteria are technically feasible for the vendor to implement, and either (a) address accessibility problems that block people with disabilities from interacting with the interface or content, or (b) address accessibility problems and the solutions are sufficiently common that they are ubiquitous and expected.
19:14:10 [Greg]
Level A Success criteria are technically feasible for the vendor to implement, and either (a) address accessibility problems that block people with disabilities from interacting with the interface or content, or (b) address accessibility problems and the solutions are either sufficiently common that they are ubiquitous and expected or trivially easy to implement.
19:15:27 [Greg]
Per Jeanne's suggestion to take out "trivially":
19:15:28 [Greg]
Level A Success criteria are technically feasible for the vendor to implement, and either (a) address accessibility problems that block people with disabilities from interacting with the interface or content, or (b) address accessibility problems and the solutions are either sufficiently common that they are ubiquitous and expected or easy to implement.
19:16:02 [Greg]
Level A Success criteria are technically feasible for the vendor to implement, and either (a) address accessibility problems that block people with disabilities from interacting with the interface or content, or (b) address accessibility problems and the solutions are either sufficiently common that they are ubiquitous and expected, or easy to implement.
19:16:21 [Greg]
(That's with comma inserted before final "or")
19:17:16 [KimPatch]
Level A Success criteria are technically feasible for the vendor to implement, and either (a) address accessibility problems that block people with disabilities from interacting with the interface or content, or (b) address accessibility problems and the solutions are either sufficiently common that they are ubiquitous and expected or are easy to implement.
19:19:56 [Greg]
Level A is expected to be feasible *in all cases*, whereas Level AA and AAA may not be feasible in all cases.
19:26:23 [Greg]
Feasible is not the same as possible; if something can be done but would be prohibitively expensive, it is possible but not feasible.
19:29:11 [Greg]
We expect every user agent to achieve Level A conformance, and believe most user agents should be able to achieve Level AA and encourage them to do so. Level AAA success criteria are often going beyond expectations, but should be considered during the design process.
19:30:54 [sharper]
RESOLVED: JA to place create the text taking these variations into account.
19:31:13 [sharper]
rrsagent, draft minutes
19:31:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/06-ua-minutes.html sharper
19:31:32 [Zakim]
-Kim_Patch
19:31:36 [Zakim]
-Jan
19:31:37 [Zakim]
-Jeanne
19:31:37 [Zakim]
- +1.425.883.aaaa
19:31:39 [Zakim]
-sharper
19:31:46 [Zakim]
-Greg_Lowney
19:31:51 [sharper]
zakim, please part
19:31:51 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Jeanne, Greg_Lowney, Jim_Allan, Jan, sharper, Kim_Patch, +1.425.883.aaaa
19:31:51 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
19:31:59 [sharper]
rrsagent, draft minutes
19:31:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/06-ua-minutes.html sharper
19:32:24 [sharper]
rrsagent, please part
19:32:24 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/12/06-ua-actions.rdf :
19:32:24 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jeanne to update document with new SC for 2.8.1 and examples from Kim's proposals emails of 4 December http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012OctDec/0042.html [1]
19:32:24 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/12/06-ua-irc#T18-47-26