IRC log of prov on 2012-12-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:52:48 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #prov
15:52:48 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:52:50 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
15:52:50 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #prov
15:52:52 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be PROV
15:52:52 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
15:52:53 [trackbot]
Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
15:52:53 [trackbot]
Date: 06 December 2012
15:53:17 [Luc]
trackbot, start telcon
15:53:19 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
15:53:21 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be PROV
15:53:21 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
15:53:22 [trackbot]
Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
15:53:22 [trackbot]
Date: 06 December 2012
15:53:25 [Luc]
Zakim, this will be PROV
15:53:25 [Zakim]
ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
15:53:43 [Luc]
15:53:55 [Luc]
Chair: Luc Moreau
15:54:31 [Luc]
rrsagent, make logs public
15:55:01 [Luc]
Regrets: James Cheney, Paolo Missier, Timothy Lebo
15:56:22 [pgroth]
you can add Stephan Zednik
15:56:26 [Luc]
Regrets: James Cheney, Paolo Missier, Timothy Lebo, Stephan Zednik, Hook Hua
15:56:36 [pgroth]
15:57:19 [Zakim]
SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started
15:57:26 [Zakim]
15:57:26 [pgroth]
zakim, who is on the call?
15:57:27 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [IPcaller]
15:57:36 [pgroth]
Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
15:57:36 [Zakim]
+pgroth; got it
15:57:55 [ivan]
zakim, code?
15:57:55 [Zakim]
the conference code is 7768 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, ivan
15:58:20 [Zakim]
15:58:28 [smiles]
smiles has joined #prov
15:58:34 [Zakim]
+ +44.238.059.aaaa
15:58:47 [Luc]
zakim, +44.238.059.aaaa is me
15:58:47 [Zakim]
+Luc; got it
15:58:58 [Luc]
zakim, who is on the call?
15:58:59 [Zakim]
On the phone I see pgroth, ivan, Luc
15:59:20 [lebot]
lebot has joined #prov
15:59:28 [Zakim]
15:59:39 [smiles]
zakim, ??P13 is me
15:59:39 [Zakim]
+smiles; got it
15:59:44 [tlebo]
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16:00:35 [GK1]
GK1 has joined #prov
16:00:41 [jun]
jun has joined #prov
16:00:43 [Zakim]
+ +1.315.941.aabb
16:00:49 [tlebo]
zakim, I am aabb
16:00:49 [Zakim]
+tlebo; got it
16:01:04 [Zakim]
16:01:13 [jun]
zakim, ??p1 is me
16:01:13 [Zakim]
+jun; got it
16:01:13 [Luc]
i need a scribe please
16:01:26 [pgroth]
i can if no one else
16:01:28 [Zakim]
16:01:38 [MacTed]
Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
16:01:38 [Zakim]
+MacTed; got it
16:01:39 [MacTed]
Zakim, mute me
16:01:39 [Zakim]
MacTed should now be muted
16:01:44 [smiles]
I can scribe
16:01:47 [tlebo]
sorry, I might get pulled away during the call.
16:01:58 [smiles]
16:02:05 [smiles]
Scribe: smiles
16:02:11 [Dong]
Dong has joined #prov
16:02:22 [Zakim]
16:02:32 [stain]
zakim, +IPcaller is me
16:02:32 [Zakim]
sorry, stain, I do not recognize a party named '+IPcaller'
16:02:37 [stain]
zakim, IPcaller is me
16:02:37 [Zakim]
+stain; got it
16:02:49 [Luc]
topic: admin
16:02:52 [Luc]
proposed: to approve the minutes of last week's teleconference
16:03:01 [tlebo]
16:03:05 [ivan]
16:03:06 [jun]
16:03:14 [smiles]
16:03:15 [Dong]
16:03:20 [stain]
0: not read (the link?)
16:03:28 [Zakim]
16:03:35 [Luc]
resolved: the minutes of last week's teleconference
16:03:39 [Zakim]
16:03:39 [stain]
16:03:59 [GK]
GK has joined #prov
16:04:14 [GK]
zakim, ??p26 is me
16:04:14 [Zakim]
+GK; got it
16:04:16 [pgroth]
16:04:17 [pgroth]
16:04:19 [smiles]
Luc: Actions open, Tim's for later, Luc's not done, Stefan's will be covered later
16:04:20 [Zakim]
16:04:37 [Luc]
topoic: congratulations
16:04:44 [Luc]
16:04:58 [pgroth]
16:05:20 [smiles]
Luc: Transition request approved for four new notes: overview, links, dc mapping, and xml
16:05:33 [smiles]
... congratulations to editors
16:06:08 [Zakim]
16:06:14 [smiles]
ivan: Checked with Dennis, who will check the release documents at the weekend, no problem with publication
16:06:17 [christine]
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16:06:39 [Zakim]
+ +44.789.470.aacc
16:06:43 [Luc]
16:06:51 [pgroth]
16:06:58 [smiles]
Luc: May not be available at all times on Monday, Tuesday, to deal with problems
16:07:21 [TomDN]
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16:07:22 [smiles]
ivan: Publication will usually happen Tuesday morning Boston time
16:07:35 [pgroth]
do we need a blog post?
16:07:36 [smiles]
... need blurb for W3C homepage
16:07:43 [Zakim]
+ +329331aadd
16:07:52 [pgroth]
16:07:53 [TomDN]
Zakim, +329 is me
16:07:54 [Zakim]
+TomDN; got it
16:07:59 [smiles]
... once publication is out, blog post would be good
16:08:03 [Luc]
16:08:11 [smiles]
pgroth: I can prepare a blog post, ready for Tuesday
16:08:12 [TomDN]
(sorry I'm late, other meeting ran late)
16:08:20 [Luc]
ack pg
16:08:47 [smiles]
ivan: Whatever goes to the W3C homepage, I repeat it on the activity blog
16:09:04 [smiles]
... so better if one of chairs write this text
16:09:21 [pgroth]
16:09:24 [smiles]
... could be separate blog post with more details, which can also go to activity blog
16:10:06 [smiles]
pgroth: If something comes up regarding publication, we can directly edit the HTML?
16:10:11 [smiles]
ivan: yes
16:10:16 [Luc]
16:10:28 [Luc]
topic: Getting Things Ready for Implementation
16:10:33 [khalidBelhajjame]
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16:10:49 [smiles]
Luc: There are outstanding questions regarding questionnaire
16:10:59 [Zakim]
16:11:06 [khalidBelhajjame]
zakim, [IPcaller.a] is me
16:11:06 [Zakim]
+khalidBelhajjame; got it
16:11:15 [smiles]
pgroth: Questionnaire has not changed much since last week, couple of things Stefan needs to do
16:11:37 [pgroth]
16:11:48 [smiles]
... he has copied three questionnaires into one and added question about PROV constraints
16:12:19 [smiles]
... he still needs to create the other questionnaires
16:12:38 [smiles]
... for different kinds of products: implementation, vocabulary
16:12:40 [Luc]
16:13:12 [smiles]
Luc: questionnaire ready for management telecon tomorrow?
16:13:25 [smiles]
... does not have all links to concepts in CR documents
16:13:50 [TomDN]
Zakim, mute me
16:13:50 [Zakim]
TomDN should now be muted
16:14:01 [smiles]
pgroth: I can update this questionnaire with links
16:14:20 [smiles]
Luc: currently links point to sections, not definitions
16:14:33 [tlebo]
16:15:22 [Luc]
16:15:44 [smiles]
Luc: Any questions on questionnaires?
16:16:07 [Dong]
16:16:13 [SamCoppens]
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16:16:15 [smiles]
Dong: (regarding test cases) Above are the current documents
16:16:41 [smiles]
... Issues raised by internal reviewers addressed, almost ready to go
16:16:49 [SamCoppens]
zakim, SamCoppens is with TomDN
16:16:49 [Zakim]
+SamCoppens; got it
16:17:08 [smiles]
... except that test cases missing for some constraints
16:18:05 [smiles]
Luc: The test cases do not need to be frozen by 11th, need to be good but as others implement we may come up with other examples
16:18:18 [Luc]
16:18:57 [smiles]
Dong: Good. In current version of test case document, we ask people to email results back to us, maybe be better to use questionnaire
16:19:12 [pgroth]
that's a good idea…
16:19:26 [smiles]
... I will see if the questionnaire allows us to have text fields they can copy these into instead
16:20:03 [satya]
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16:20:07 [smiles]
pgroth: Could be possible, but would have to go through test case numbers in WBS
16:20:29 [Zakim]
16:20:33 [Luc]
if you look at the current questionnaire, you have free text boxes
16:20:44 [smiles]
Dong: Do not to intend to list all test cases as options, but just provide big text fields
16:21:43 [Luc]
16:22:06 [smiles]
Dong: need volunteer reviewers for test case document
16:22:45 [smiles]
Luc: There are a couple of lines with no test cases listed, but for which we do have test cases
16:22:53 [smiles]
Dong: Yes, some to add to test suite
16:23:27 [pgroth]
16:23:32 [smiles]
Luc: Thanks to Dong for all the work: 240 different tests, for each of 3 serialisations
16:23:44 [Luc]
16:24:02 [smiles]
... Now need reviewers for test cases
16:24:26 [pgroth]
16:24:30 [Luc]
16:24:52 [smiles]
pgroth: Can I do it while I implement?
16:25:40 [smiles]
Luc: That's fine, though ideally you should not come back on 31 Jan with problem
16:26:15 [smiles]
... will also ask James C to review
16:26:24 [Luc]
action jcheney to review the test cases
16:26:24 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-154 - Review the test cases [on James Cheney - due 2012-12-13].
16:26:32 [Luc]
16:26:43 [jun]
I am in a similar position as Paul
16:26:57 [jun]
I will review them while implementing them
16:26:59 [Luc]
ack pg
16:27:02 [pgroth]
16:27:18 [Luc]
action paolo to review the test cases
16:27:18 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-155 - Review the test cases [on Paolo Missier - due 2012-12-13].
16:27:25 [Luc]
16:27:39 [tlebo]
interested, but not willing to commit :-)
16:27:54 [Luc]
16:28:05 [smiles]
Luc: Anything else regarding implementation?
16:28:11 [smiles]
ivan: We are ready for tomorrow
16:28:59 [smiles]
ivan: They will review the call sent to the chairs and links on that page
16:29:02 [Luc]
topic: prov-xml
16:29:07 [stain]
16:29:16 [pgroth]
16:29:36 [stain]
16:29:41 [smiles]
stain: Have investigated namespace issue
16:30:05 [smiles]
... have looked at how to deal with extensions, include or redefine namespaces
16:30:28 [smiles]
... propose use of substitution groups to allow for extensions
16:31:04 [smiles]
... namespace overlap issues become clean, as can reuse same namespace and use xsd:includes
16:32:10 [Luc]
16:32:15 [smiles]
... need to say something about how others do extensions, manage adding complex type elements with attributes, etc.
16:32:15 [Luc]
ack stain
16:32:59 [smiles]
Luc: do not have editors on call, so cannot make decisions, but can pass Stian's wiki page to initiate debate
16:33:00 [Luc]
16:33:26 [pgroth]
16:33:33 [Luc]
action zednik to review and come back with a response
16:33:33 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-156 - Review and come back with a response [on Stephan Zednik - due 2012-12-13].
16:33:35 [smiles]
Luc: Can discuss at next telecon
16:33:37 [Luc]
16:33:56 [smiles]
pgroth: Would be good to get this settled so we can get on with improving the namespace page
16:34:11 [Luc]
ack pg
16:34:12 [stain]
16:34:37 [smiles]
stain: Last week Tim raised some concerns about same namespaces in OWL and XML
16:34:52 [Luc]
ack st
16:35:09 [Luc]
16:35:17 [smiles]
tlebo: Haven't yet considered, will do for next week
16:35:46 [smiles]
Luc: Thanks Stian for work, we will now digest
16:35:50 [stain]
.. specially if we need to leave hooks in the core.xsd
16:36:12 [smiles]
... Request that current set of issues on XML should be addressed by next release: early February
16:36:16 [ivan]
16:36:17 [Luc]
16:36:50 [stain]
and are there any overlaps with elements and predicates?
16:36:52 [Luc]
ack iv
16:36:53 [smiles]
ivan: Just checked: OWL 2 has an XML serialisation and uses same namespace as the RDF ontology
16:37:08 [Luc]
16:37:13 [tlebo]
Thanks, @ivan
16:37:19 [Luc]
16:38:02 [smiles]
GK: <alien sounds>
16:38:14 [GK]
Ity seedms my outgoping audiop is poor
16:38:25 [GK]
I'm on an ADSL line, so maybe bandwidth starved
16:38:35 [Luc]
... alien text too ;-)
16:38:47 [pgroth]
I can do it
16:38:54 [pgroth]
and correct me if I'm wrong
16:38:57 [GK]
I have some notes I can paste in:\
16:39:05 [GK]
PROV-AQ - draft at:
16:39:05 [GK]
16:39:05 [GK]
Has been updated:
16:39:05 [GK]
Change 'provenance information' to 'provenance description' (ISSUE 601); extensive editorial changes should be reviewed
16:39:05 [GK]
Add note about service description and LDP consideration thereof
16:39:05 [GK]
Add non-commital paragraph about accessing provenance bundles
16:39:05 [GK]
Update forward provenance (pingback) in response to comments; fix text around VoID example
16:39:06 [GK]
Added specification for pingback link header (ISSUE 600)
16:39:06 [GK]
Expanded discussion of provenance service discovery to include prov:hasProvenanceService
16:39:06 [GK]
Remove speculative non-specification text to be covered in FAQ (ISSUES 426, 598)
16:39:07 [GK]
Added section with table of URIs and what they dereference to (ISSUE 424)
16:39:07 [GK]
Make treatment of direct retrieval and service for provenance access more equally visible (ISSUE 422)
16:39:07 [GK]
Point out that provenance services can accept paraneters other than just 'target' (ISSUE 420)
16:39:08 [GK]
Added definitions for accessung and locating (ISSUE 417)
16:39:08 [GK]
Added section on Link: headers and content negotiation (ISSUE 416)
16:39:08 [GK]
Added icon to distibguish external links (ISSUE 400)
16:39:09 [GK]
Updsate and cross-link table of prov: URIs defined
16:39:09 [GK]
Changed link relations to URIs; removed IANA considerations section
16:39:09 [GK]
Hyperlink concept definitions to themselves (per request from Tim 2012-06-05)
16:39:09 [GK]
Update security considerations with note about use of provenance as part of audit/enforcement mechanism
16:39:09 [GK]
Update list of PROV documents, copied from PROV-DM
16:39:09 [GK]
Cut back on verbiage in sect 3,4 rbitrary data
16:39:10 [GK]
Revised section 3 descriptions in terms of prodcuers and consumers
16:39:10 [GK]
Updated security considerations to mention audit
16:39:10 [GK]
Add TODO for producer/consumer roles, add note about multiple links, add reference to RFC3986 for %-escaping
16:39:11 [GK]
Update security considerations, note about non-RDF service desription, PROV-O link, acknowledgements
16:39:17 [GK]
The aboce is from the HG log
16:39:22 [MacTed]
Zakim, who's noisy?
16:39:34 [Zakim]
MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pgroth (47%), ivan (61%), Luc (9%), GK (97%)
16:39:36 [MacTed]
Zakim, mute gk
16:39:36 [Zakim]
GK should now be muted
16:39:50 [stain]
intergalactic issue
16:39:54 [GK]
So where we are:
16:39:55 [GK]
- Most issues have been addressed, pending review
16:39:56 [smiles]
pgroth: Gone through all the issues, and GK has been addressing them (see changes above)
16:39:56 [GK]
16:39:56 [GK]
- Have review comments from Jun to fold in
16:39:56 [GK]
- update of OWL document [fragment] is still to do.
16:39:56 [GK]
- still need to review for use of RFC2119 language (even though non-REC, is still a spec)
16:39:56 [GK]
16:40:14 [smiles]
pgroth: Still more to do, but should be done by next week (GK?)
16:40:18 [GK]
Most;y, buy some outstandinmg issues
16:40:28 [GK]
Recent issues:
16:40:28 [GK]
- SPARQL endpoint discovery
16:40:28 [GK]
- raised issue with LDP about service description format ( I p[ropose to stiock for now with RDF, as that avoids defining yet another data format, and maybe update later to follow LDP recommendations
16:40:28 [GK]
-- issue of RDF having multiple MIME types (cf. email from Eric Wilde aka @dret)
16:40:44 [smiles]
pgroth: After that, need to read over
16:41:14 [smiles]
Luc: Group will not see doc before Christmas?
16:41:23 [GK]
I think there are issues that can be revioewed; e.g. forward provenance
16:41:30 [smiles]
pgroth: Yes, there seems no point in doing so, as will not be able to give proper attention
16:41:51 [GK]
There';s some discussion about how to handle SPARQL endpoint discovery
16:41:52 [pgroth]
yeah, first - second week of january
16:41:59 [smiles]
Luc: Early Jan, should have internal review of document
16:42:06 [Luc]
16:42:12 [GK]
q+ to say there are a couple of specific issues to discuss
16:42:21 [pgroth]
will this work...
16:42:26 [Luc]
ack gk
16:42:27 [Zakim]
GK, you wanted to say there are a couple of specific issues to discuss
16:42:35 [pgroth]
16:42:43 [GK]
16:42:45 [stain]
it was good as you said "hang on"
16:42:54 [stain]
perhaps GK really IS in a different galaxy..!
16:42:56 [GK]
1. SP{ARQL endpoint discovery - I propose a new link relation
16:43:07 [GK]
2. service descrtiption format
16:43:20 [GK]
3. pingback; aka "forward provenance"
16:43:32 [GK]
These are issuyes where there are substantial changes/new material
16:43:36 [pgroth]
sounds good
16:43:45 [smiles]
Luc: Use mailing list to point out issues to discuss (as GK lists above)
16:43:49 [pgroth]
16:43:54 [GK]
Acxk. Siounds good.
16:44:09 [GK]
16:44:12 [Luc]
16:44:18 [Luc]
topic: prov-sem
16:44:19 [pgroth]
thanks graham
16:44:21 [pgroth]
16:44:27 [Luc]
16:44:52 [Luc]
16:45:02 [smiles]
Luc: Had apologies from James, but sent brief update: has been converting the rules into LaTeX/HTML
16:45:55 [Luc]
16:45:57 [smiles]
... He asks for (1) people to go through document and check for typos in converting rules, (2) people to help convert into W3C Note style
16:46:51 [smiles]
ivan: Could contact staff contact in MathML group, as they may have experience in publishing formal notation/maths
16:47:05 [smiles]
... Can forward James' mail
16:47:41 [Luc]
16:48:00 [smiles]
Luc: Anyone else willing to go through the document? Tom?
16:48:09 [TomDN]
16:48:11 [Luc]
16:48:21 [pgroth]
16:48:39 [GK]
I'll look if I have time
16:48:48 [smiles]
pgroth: Is it at a state where we would want to show it to others?
16:48:52 [smiles]
Luc: No I don't think so
16:48:56 [pgroth]
ack pgroth
16:49:10 [Luc]
16:49:13 [TomDN]
I can take a look at it as reviewer, but cannot actively help with writing
16:49:19 [Luc]
topic: prov-dictionary
16:49:19 [smiles]
Luc: Not formal review yet, see James' mail for what to check
16:49:24 [TomDN]
Zakim, unmute me
16:49:24 [Zakim]
TomDN should no longer be muted
16:49:52 [pgroth]
is that too late?
16:49:54 [smiles]
TomDN: Schedule will be as said last week, next version out by next Thursday for internal review
16:50:20 [Luc]
16:50:23 [smiles]
Luc: Timing fine for FPWD with proposed recommendations
16:50:40 [Luc]
16:50:44 [TomDN]
Zakim, mute me
16:50:44 [Zakim]
TomDN should now be muted
16:50:52 [smiles]
Luc: AOB?
16:51:00 [tlebo]
thanks, bye!
16:51:02 [smiles]
16:51:03 [TomDN]
16:51:04 [khalidBelhajjame]
16:51:04 [pgroth]
16:51:10 [Zakim]
16:51:10 [SamCoppens]
SamCoppens has left #prov
16:51:11 [Zakim]
16:51:12 [Zakim]
16:51:12 [Dong]
16:51:14 [Zakim]
16:51:15 [Zakim]
16:51:15 [Zakim]
16:51:18 [GK]
Yay! +10 mins
16:51:18 [jun]
16:51:19 [Zakim]
16:51:20 [GK]
16:51:22 [Zakim]
16:51:24 [Zakim]
16:51:25 [Zakim]
16:51:26 [Zakim]
16:51:30 [Zakim]
- +44.789.470.aacc
16:51:33 [Luc]
rrsagent, set log public
16:51:40 [Zakim]
16:51:42 [Luc]
trackbot, end telcon
16:51:42 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
16:51:42 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been pgroth, ivan, Luc, smiles, +1.315.941.aabb, tlebo, jun, MacTed, stain, GK, [IPcaller], +44.789.470.aacc, +329331aadd, TomDN,
16:51:43 [Luc]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:51:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Luc
16:51:45 [Zakim]
... khalidBelhajjame, SamCoppens, Satya_Sahoo
16:51:48 [ivan]
zakim, drop me
16:51:48 [Zakim]
ivan is being disconnected
16:51:49 [Zakim]
SW_(PROV)11:00AM has ended
16:51:49 [Zakim]
Attendees were pgroth, ivan, Luc, smiles, +1.315.941.aabb, tlebo, jun, MacTed, stain, GK, [IPcaller], +44.789.470.aacc, +329331aadd, TomDN, khalidBelhajjame, SamCoppens,
16:51:49 [Zakim]
... Satya_Sahoo
16:51:50 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:51:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
16:51:51 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
16:51:51 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items