16:48:27 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #audio
16:48:27 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/12/05-audio-irc
16:50:15 <chrislowis> agenda +discuss two remaining contentious issues in the MIDI spec
16:50:25 <chrislowis> agenda +clarify use of the RFC 2119 keywords
16:51:21 <chrislowis> agenda +testing
16:51:27 <colinbdclark> colinbdclark has joined #audio
16:51:37 <chrislowis> agenda +"version 1" of the spec?
16:52:56 <jussi> jussi has joined #audio
16:55:47 <chrislowis> Zakim, agenda?
16:55:47 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
16:55:49 <Zakim> 1. discuss two remaining contentious issues in the MIDI spec [from chrislowis]
16:55:49 <Zakim> 2. clarify use of the RFC 2119 keywords [from chrislowis]
16:55:49 <Zakim> 3. testing [from chrislowis]
16:55:49 <Zakim> 4. "version 1" of the spec? [from chrislowis]
16:57:11 <Zakim> RWC_Audio()12:00PM has now started
16:57:18 <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
16:57:18 <tmichel> tmichel has joined #audio
16:57:42 <tmichel> zakim, dial Thierry-Mobile
16:57:42 <Zakim> ok, tmichel; the call is being made
16:57:44 <Zakim> +Thierry
16:57:53 <Zakim> +??P51
16:58:03 <chrislowis> Zakim, P51 is me
16:58:04 <Zakim> sorry, chrislowis, I do not recognize a party named 'P51'
16:58:12 <chrislowis> Zakim, ??P51 is me
16:58:12 <Zakim> +chrislowis; got it
16:58:32 <Zakim> -chrislowis
16:58:36 <chrislowis> Bad connection.
16:58:54 <chrislowis> Zakim, code
16:58:54 <Zakim> I don't understand 'code', chrislowis
16:59:00 <chrislowis> Zakim, what is the code?
16:59:01 <Zakim> the conference code is 28346 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), chrislowis
16:59:29 <ack> ack has joined #audio
16:59:57 <Zakim> + +44.303.040.aaaa
17:00:04 <chris> chris has joined #audio
17:00:11 <tmichel> could we start the agenda with issue about adding code  for conformance requirement and testing ??
17:00:17 <chrislowis> Zakim, +44.303.040.aaa is me
17:00:17 <Zakim> +chrislowis; got it
17:00:46 <tmichel> zami, who is here ?
17:00:56 <tmichel> zakim, who is here?
17:00:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Mozilla], Thierry, chrislowis
17:00:57 <Zakim> On IRC I see chris, ack, tmichel, jussi, colinbdclark, RRSAgent, Zakim, ehsan, paul___irish, trackbot, shepazu, mdjp, chrislowis
17:01:10 <Zakim> + +1.510.334.aabb
17:01:20 <Zakim> +gmandyam
17:01:35 <Zakim> +??P66
17:01:50 <gmandyam> gmandyam has joined #audio
17:01:54 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #audio
17:01:59 <gmandyam> Giri Mandyam, Qualcomm Innovation Center, joining the call
17:02:06 <chrislowis> Zakim, take up 3
17:02:07 <Zakim> I don't understand 'take up 3', chrislowis
17:02:20 <chrislowis> Zakim, take up agendum 3
17:02:20 <Zakim> agendum 3. "testing" taken up [from chrislowis]
17:02:56 <Zakim> +ChrisL.a
17:03:22 <ChrisL> zakim, who is here?
17:03:22 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Mozilla], Thierry, chrislowis, +1.510.334.aabb, gmandyam, ??P66, ChrisL.a
17:03:24 <Zakim> On IRC I see ChrisL, gmandyam, chris, ack, tmichel, jussi, colinbdclark, RRSAgent, Zakim, ehsan, paul___irish, trackbot, shepazu, mdjp, chrislowis
17:03:31 <ChrisL> rrsagent, here
17:03:31 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2012/12/05-audio-irc#T17-03-31
17:04:00 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make logs public
17:04:22 <ChrisWilson> ChrisWilson has joined #audio
17:04:22 <jussi> Zakim: ??P66 is me
17:04:42 <jussi> Zakim, ??P66 is me
17:04:42 <Zakim> +jussi; got it
17:05:36 <jernoble> jernoble has joined #audio
17:05:46 <Zakim> + +1.408.772.aacc
17:05:51 <chrislowis> tmichel: added some code to track requirements in the spec as per RFC keywords.
17:05:55 <ChrisLilley> tm: added spec updates to hilight RFC2119 MUST MAY etc
17:05:55 <jernoble> zakim, aacc is me
17:05:55 <Zakim> +jernoble; got it
17:06:04 <chrislowis> ChrisLilley: thanks!
17:06:08 <ChrisLilley> ... and then XSLT it to find the testable assertions
17:06:20 <ChrisLilley> ... won't be all the tests we need, just a subset
17:06:37 <ChrisLilley> scribenick: chrislilley
17:06:54 <ChrisLilley> tm: did a search and replace, so there are false positives
17:07:43 <ChrisLilley> tm: asked chris rodgers to clean up the result as the author knows which ones are really required
17:08:15 <ChrisLilley> zakim, who is speaking?
17:08:26 <Zakim> ChrisLilley, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +1.510.334.aabb (70%)
17:08:50 <chrislowis> Zakim, +1.510.334.aabb is chris
17:08:51 <Zakim> +chris; got it
17:09:22 <ChrisLilley> chris: will get keywords in but don't want to start from the auto search and replaced version
17:09:37 <ChrisLilley> tmichel: just wanted to show what is possible
17:09:51 <ChrisLilley> ... plh will present some testing guidelines in two weeks
17:10:05 <ChrisLilley> s/tm: /tmichel:
17:10:10 <ChrisLilley> s/tm: /tmichel:/g
17:10:28 <ChrisLilley> chris: ok but will take more time than we have til the next deadline
17:10:48 <ChrisLilley> ... continued review of them as i proceed
17:11:19 <ChrisLilley> tmichel: use uppercase MAY for 2119 and lowercase may for general English
17:12:20 <ChrisLilley> chris: some places the test may have to be a manual test, because it may be a high level aspect which can't be done with an automatic test
17:12:44 <ChrisLilley> chrislowis: priority at the moment is to make testing and conformance easy for implementors
17:13:12 <ChrisLilley> tmichel: agree we don't have a direct mapping between keywords and number of tests
17:13:26 <ChrisLilley> chris: agree it has value
17:13:39 <ChrisLilley> tmichel: (garbled)
17:14:33 <ChrisLilley> tmichel: styling will not remain in the final spec, the code will but won't trigger visible styling change
17:14:34 <ChrisLilley> q+
17:14:48 <ChrisWilson> zakim, code?
17:14:48 <Zakim> the conference code is 28346 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ChrisWilson
17:15:07 <ChrisLilley> chris: ok that covers everything, did not like the styling, and its better to pick out the keywords manually
17:16:08 <Zakim> + +1.862.201.aadd
17:16:14 <ChrisWilson> zakim, aadd is me.
17:16:14 <Zakim> +ChrisWilson; got it
17:16:23 <ChrisLilley> ChrisLilley: good to link tested assertion styling with :target so it hilights when you link to it
17:16:27 <chrislowis> Zakim, take up agendum 3
17:16:27 <Zakim> agendum 3. "testing" taken up [from chrislowis]
17:16:52 <ChrisLilley> zakim, who is talking?
17:17:02 <ehsan> https://github.com/alankligman/webaudio-conformance
17:17:03 <Zakim> ChrisLilley, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [Mozilla] (57%), Thierry (5%)
17:17:18 <chrislowis> ChrisLilley: Alan.
17:17:25 <ChrisLilley> ehsan: have checked stuff into github and will maintain it
17:17:43 <tmichel> zakim, mute Thierry-Mobile
17:17:43 <Zakim> sorry, tmichel, I do not know which phone connection belongs to Thierry-Mobile
17:18:04 <tmichel> zakim, mute tmichel
17:18:04 <Zakim> sorry, tmichel, I do not know which phone connection belongs to tmichel
17:18:28 <ChrisLilley> ??: looking for feedback on test and how to submit them
17:19:02 <ChrisLilley> chris: in webkit we use an offline context. set up a rendering graph and give it a callback, which gives n audio buffer
17:19:15 <ChrisLilley> ... the javascript can check that and send a pass/fail message
17:19:24 <tmichel> zakim, who is here?
17:19:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Mozilla], Thierry, chrislowis, chris, gmandyam, jussi, ChrisL.a, jernoble, ChrisWilson
17:19:26 <Zakim> On IRC I see jernoble, ChrisWilson, ChrisLilley, gmandyam, chris, ack, tmichel, jussi, colinbdclark, RRSAgent, Zakim, ehsan, paul___irish, trackbot, shepazu, mdjp, chrislowis
17:19:33 <ChrisLilley> ... important to have that in the spec, for testing
17:20:02 <ChrisLilley> ??: ys we need that for any sort of useful testing, not just high level API testing
17:20:45 <ChrisLilley> chrislowis: need that to test in an implementation independent way
17:20:56 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
17:21:05 <ChrisLilley> xx: manual tests can be error prone and time consuming
17:21:18 <chrislowis> s/xx/chris
17:21:25 <ChrisLilley> ... a dozen or so manual tests is fine
17:21:28 <ehsan> s/??/ack/
17:21:50 <ChrisLilley> ack: also want to discuss test submission process
17:23:29 <ChrisLilley> ChrisLilley: can use incoming directories. Shepherd is a way to manage tests
17:23:44 <ChrisLilley> tmichel: each WG does it differently
17:24:17 <ChrisLilley> ack: want submission process as easy as possible so we get lots of submissions. Need a large number of tests to get implementor attention
17:24:43 <ChrisLilley> ... currently its not easy to see if something is in the spec or not
17:25:36 <ChrisLilley> chrislowis: important to get tests early
17:26:17 <ChrisLilley> ack: any problems with the test framework? can it be announced on the public list?
17:26:20 <ChrisLilley> (yes)
17:26:31 <ehsan> s/ack/ehsan/
17:27:33 <ChrisLilley> tmichel: we should dedicate a full telcon to testing
17:27:37 <ChrisLilley> ... on 19 Dec
17:28:17 <ChrisLilley> zakim, agenda?
17:28:17 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
17:28:18 <Zakim> 1. discuss two remaining contentious issues in the MIDI spec [from chrislowis]
17:28:18 <Zakim> 2. clarify use of the RFC 2119 keywords [from chrislowis]
17:28:18 <Zakim> 3. testing [from chrislowis]
17:28:18 <Zakim> 4. "version 1" of the spec? [from chrislowis]
17:28:18 <Zakim> -Thierry
17:28:28 <ChrisLilley> zakim, move to next agendum
17:28:29 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, ChrisLilley
17:28:29 <ChrisWilson> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19803
17:28:38 <chrislowis> Zakim, take up agendum 1
17:28:38 <Zakim> agendum 1. "discuss two remaining contentious issues in the MIDI spec" taken up [from chrislowis]
17:28:39 <ChrisLilley> topic: mIDI fingerprint
17:28:59 <ChrisLilley> cwilso: fingerprint does not guarantee uniqueness
17:29:33 <ChrisLilley> ... need a fallback, as windows gives no way to associate a physical midi port gets the same unique identifier
17:30:33 <ChrisLilley> cwilso: generally the case for any hardware. each one can be further queried, can identify by manuf and type, but they can get switched
17:30:43 <ChrisLilley> ... or plugged in a different order
17:31:06 <ChrisLilley> shepazu: if this a windows limitation or a midi one?
17:31:29 <ChrisLilley> cwilso: its not related to the midi spec, its how the system enumerates devices
17:31:47 <ChrisLilley> shepazu: could there be some unique ID that a device sends out?
17:32:21 <ChrisLilley> cwilso: yes, but distinguish between devices and midi adapters. same thing over usb, but not over DIN midi
17:32:49 <ChrisLilley> ... MIDI protocol only talks about communication with endpoints
17:33:01 <ChrisLilley> ... using sysex it can be improved a bit
17:33:21 <ChrisLilley> ... don't want to reorganise the interfaces each time you start a DAW
17:33:45 <ChrisLilley> ... soec says SHOULD because we can't guarantee uniqueness
17:34:31 <jussi> q+
17:34:33 <ChrisLilley> cwilso: index is simply a list of ports
17:34:37 <ChrisLilley> q?
17:34:42 <ChrisLilley> ack chris
17:34:58 <ChrisLilley> cwilso: in chromeOS we have not got those problems
17:35:20 <rtoyg> rtoyg has joined #audio
17:35:33 <ChrisLilley> ... think it has unique identifiers, not sure if they are portable across machines
17:36:10 <ChrisLilley> ChrisLilley: sounds OK as a SHOULD if some platforms can't provide it
17:36:36 <ChrisLilley> cwilso: made unique identifiers by concatenating manuf, model and index
17:36:56 <ChrisLilley> ... reasonable thing to do but can't be relied upon
17:37:23 <ChrisLilley> ... have other ways to ask about the device, maintain a MIDI port reference but they are not saveable
17:37:39 <ChrisLilley> zz: but they would persist across a session
17:38:13 <ChrisLilley> shepazu: can it be relied upon on other platforms
17:38:24 <ChrisLilley> cwilso: maybe but not universally
17:38:54 <ChrisLilley> xx: APIs can give a huge amoubt of info, like persistent tegistry information, device descriptors API
17:39:10 <ChrisLilley> ... big pool for generating a unuique ID
17:39:42 <ChrisLilley> cwilso: need to document what happens to fallback if it fails
17:40:03 <ChrisLilley> ... session stores IDs but also do index and name storage
17:40:14 <ChrisLilley> ... so session can be restored later
17:40:16 <shepazu> agenda+ telcon time
17:40:38 <ChrisLilley> ... not ideal, but better than total failure
17:41:10 <ChrisLilley> cwilso: looking for guidance, good feature but unreliable so needs well specified failure behaviour
17:41:29 <ChrisLilley> ... jussi seems to think its usefull enough right now
17:42:14 <ChrisLilley> jussi: case where you check if you have a certain name at the same index as previously, may have enough info to create a unique ID
17:42:41 <ChrisLilley> .. create fingerprint from data plus how many devices you have with the same information
17:43:18 <ChrisLilley> cwilso: so two interfaces of the same type show up named the same and you store MOTU1 and MOTU2 for example
17:43:21 <ChrisLilley> jussi: yes
17:44:18 <ChrisLilley> shepazu: keep it in, mark at risk, ask for feedback
17:44:23 <ChrisLilley> ... can drop it later
17:44:55 <ChrisLilley> shepazu: and we can document why we dropped it, if we do
17:45:07 <ChrisWilson> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19975
17:45:17 <ChrisLilley> topic: MIDI timestamps and message queues
17:45:46 <ChrisLilley> cwilso: when restructuring, looked at making onMessage be a single message, so we dont neeed a midi message at all
17:46:12 <ChrisLilley> ... long thread, some good discussion. different is the callback represents a single midi messages rather than a bunch at once
17:46:36 <ChrisLilley> ... not that crazy, event firing overhead is ok and its how windows midi api works also
17:47:00 <ChrisLilley> ... can simplify now and add event handler for multiple messages later if needed
17:47:46 <ChrisLilley> ChrisLilley: can timestamt two messages that form a 14-bit message?
17:48:40 <ChrisLilley> cwilso: yes, get two callbacks for MSB and LSB, may not have same the same timestamp
17:49:26 <ChrisLilley> cwilso: still undefined what you do if one of the messages is missing. same for sysex, osx core midi api lets you have a midi packet with a partial sysex
17:49:42 <ChrisLilley> ... usbmidi and windows midi does not give partial messages
17:49:56 <ChrisLilley> ... on js processing end its much easier to only get complete messages
17:50:27 <ChrisLilley> cwilso: correct way is to buffer one message until the rest appears
17:51:33 <ChrisLilley> ChrisLilley: seems like a good simplification
17:51:38 <ChrisLilley> jussi: I agree
17:52:00 <ChrisLilley> ... no proven cases where it is better to have only multiple messages
17:52:38 <ChrisLilley> cwilso: found some scenarios where slow processing gives a buffer issue. but it does make it easier to write basic software
17:52:51 <ChrisLilley> jussi: yes, solve the harder problem when we have it
17:53:07 <ChrisLilley> chrislowis: summarise these discussions in the bugs, please
17:53:25 <ChrisLilley> cwilso: will do, and hiope to publishbefore year end
17:53:47 <ChrisLilley> cwilso: other bug outstanding is to state everywhere we throw exceptions
17:53:54 <ChrisLilley> ... and add lots of examples
17:54:13 <ChrisLilley> topic: call time
17:54:21 <chrislowis> Zakim, take up agendum 5
17:54:21 <Zakim> agendum 5. "telcon time" taken up [from shepazu]
17:55:03 <ChrisLilley> shepazu: two issues, one is that kames from intel can't join at this time, second is that this slot is taken up by two other huge groups and the bridge gets full
17:55:13 <ChrisLilley> .. so people end up unable to join
17:55:46 <ChrisLilley> shepazu: working on more capacity, but this slot is overbooked
17:56:13 <ChrisLilley> chrislowis: change next year, then
17:56:51 <ChrisLilley> ChrisLilley: great to avoid the clash with CSS
17:57:03 <ChrisLilley> shepazu: will make a poll on the new times
17:57:14 <ChrisLilley> action: shepazu to make a call time poll
17:57:14 <trackbot> Created ACTION-53 - Make a call time poll [on Doug Schepers - due 2012-12-12].
17:57:40 <ChrisLilley> shepazu: difficult to organise a time due to global scope
17:58:04 <ChrisLilley> shepazu: some groups alternate early and late calls, for example
17:58:35 <ChrisLilley> zakim, list attendees
17:58:37 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been [Mozilla], Thierry, chrislowis, +44.303.040.aaaa, gmandyam, ChrisL, jussi, +1.408.772.aacc, jernoble, chris, +1.862.201.aadd, ChrisWilson,
17:58:37 <Zakim> ... Doug_Schepers
17:58:44 <ChrisLilley> rrsagent, make minutes
17:58:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/05-audio-minutes.html ChrisLilley
17:58:48 <Zakim> -jernoble
17:58:50 <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
17:58:51 <Zakim> -ChrisWilson
17:58:53 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
17:58:53 <Zakim> -ChrisL.a
17:58:54 <Zakim> -jussi
17:58:54 <Zakim> -chris
17:58:56 <Zakim> -gmandyam
17:58:56 <Zakim> -chrislowis
17:58:56 <Zakim> RWC_Audio()12:00PM has ended
17:58:58 <Zakim> Attendees were [Mozilla], Thierry, chrislowis, +44.303.040.aaaa, gmandyam, ChrisL, jussi, +1.408.772.aacc, jernoble, chris, +1.862.201.aadd, ChrisWilson, Doug_Schepers
17:59:06 <chrislowis> ChrisLilley: thanks so much for scribing, much appreciated!
17:59:31 <chrislowis> ChrisLilley: great job!
17:59:40 <ChrisLilley> chris lowis will you send out the minutes?
17:59:54 <chrislowis> ChrisLilley: I think I can do that tomorrow, yes.
18:00:02 <ChrisLilley> ok
18:00:24 <ChrisLilley> chair: chris lowis
18:00:28 <ChrisLilley> rrsagent, make minutes
18:00:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/12/05-audio-minutes.html ChrisLilley
18:00:55 <chrislowis> I'll try to summarise the key points, just to make it more readable.
18:01:04 <ChrisLilley> yup
18:05:09 <ehsan_> ehsan_ has joined #audio
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