IRC log of css on 2012-11-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:24:46 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #css
16:24:46 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/11/28-css-irc
16:24:53 [glazou]: Zakim, this will be Style
16:24:53 [Zakim]: ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 36 minutes
16:24:59 [glazou]: RRSAgent, make logs public
16:25:08 [glazou]: hi all
16:37:21 [lmclister]: lmclister has joined #css
16:53:46 [Zakim]: Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
16:53:54 [Zakim]: + +47.23.69.aaaa
16:54:08 [Zakim]: + +1.415.832.aabb
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16:54:25 [SimonSapin1]: SimonSapin1 has joined #css
16:54:30 [leif]: leif has joined #css
16:54:31 [krit]: Zakim, aabb is me
16:54:31 [Zakim]: +krit; got it
16:54:44 [leif]: Zakim, who is here?
16:54:44 [Zakim]: On the phone I see +47.23.69.aaaa, krit
16:54:45 [Zakim]: On IRC I see leif, SimonSapin1, rhauck, lmclister, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, krit, glenn, logbot, antonp, SamB_MacG5, danielfilho|w, {Darktears}, drublic, teoli_, cabanier,
16:54:45 [Zakim]: ... isherman, arronei, stearns, hober, shepazu, vhardy__, boblet, gsnedders
16:54:52 [leif]: Zakim, aaa is me
16:54:52 [Zakim]: sorry, leif, I do not recognize a party named 'aaa'
16:55:01 [leif]: Zakim, aaaa is me
16:55:02 [Zakim]: +leif; got it
16:55:13 [Zakim]: +??P16
16:55:20 [glazou]: Zakim, ??P16 is me
16:55:20 [Zakim]: +glazou; got it
16:55:32 [glazou]: Zakim, who is noisy?
16:55:43 [Zakim]: glazou, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: leif (62%)
16:55:49 [glazou]: Zakim, mute leif
16:55:51 [Zakim]: leif should now be muted
16:56:00 [glazou]: leif: too much noise, I muted you
16:57:20 [Zakim]: + +33.9.52.34.aacc
16:57:32 [glazou]: Zakim, aacc is SimonSapin
16:57:33 [Zakim]: +SimonSapin; got it
16:59:03 [Zakim]: +plinss
16:59:07 [Zakim]: +??P61
16:59:30 [glenn]: zakim, ??p61 is me
16:59:30 [Zakim]: +glenn; got it
16:59:42 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
16:59:52 [leif]: whoops, I stepped out for a minute, but my phone was muted. sorry
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17:01:20 [Zakim]: + +1.253.307.aadd
17:01:35 [Zakim]: + +1.415.766.aaee
17:01:39 [dbaron]: Zakim, aaee is dbaron
17:01:42 [Zakim]: +dbaron; got it
17:01:49 [oyvind]: oyvind has joined #css
17:01:54 [Zakim]: + +1.206.512.aaff
17:01:57 [Zakim]: +Stearns
17:01:58 [Zakim]: +??P77
17:02:05 [Zakim]: + +1.408.636.aagg
17:02:10 [smfr]: Zakim, aagg is me
17:02:11 [Zakim]: +smfr; got it
17:02:24 [Zakim]: + +1.619.846.aahh
17:03:29 [SteveZ]: SteveZ has joined #css
17:03:34 [JohnJansen]: Zakim, Microsoft has JohnJansen
17:03:34 [Zakim]: +JohnJansen; got it
17:03:41 [Zakim]: +SteveZ
17:04:34 [Zakim]: +fantasai
17:04:45 [emalasky]: emalasky has joined #css
17:05:05 [Zakim]: -SimonSapin
17:05:45 [Zakim]: +SimonSapin
17:06:12 [SteveZ]: Scribenick SteveZ
17:06:51 [SteveZ]: Note from Molly which says changing the dates should not be a problem
17:06:52 [smfr]: smfr has changed the topic to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Nov/0473.html
17:07:10 [dino]: dino has joined #css
17:07:21 [SteveZ]: Please update the Wiki with your plans and everything else you need (e.g. spouse, special needs)
17:07:57 [plinss]: http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tucson-2013
17:08:28 [smfr]: topic: unbound background-clip from -origin in background shorthand
17:08:36 [smfr]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Nov/0374.html
17:08:51 [fantasai]: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cstyle%3E%0Ap%20{%20background%3A%20content-box%20red%20content-box%3B%20}%0A%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0A%3Cp%3Etest%20me
17:08:53 [SimonSapin]: makes sense to allow this
17:09:20 [SteveZ]: Fantasai: Whether other values can be between Background and Clip
17:09:21 [SteveZ]: Dirk: Firefox does not allow others do
17:09:32 [krit]: http://jsfiddle.net/WbWSF/
17:09:52 [JohnJansen]: IE10 is clipped with that test case
17:10:26 [oyvind]: firefox doesn't allow two values at all, at least not in 17/stable
17:10:53 [SteveZ]: Fantasai: reason we put them back to back was that it was simpler, but I do not have strong opinions;
17:10:54 [fantasai]: oyvind: good point, that doesn't seem to work indeed
17:11:16 [SteveZ]: Fantasai: Given one implementation follows the spec we should not change it
17:11:35 [SteveZ]: krit: does Quirks mode affect this
17:11:44 [cabanier]: cabanier has joined #css
17:12:11 [SteveZ]: Fantasai: Quirks mode should not matter because this is not a legacy feature
17:12:28 [SteveZ]: Fantasai: does anyone else have an opinion
17:12:56 [jet]: jet has joined #CSS
17:13:14 [krit]: s/does Quirks mode affect this/does Quirks mode affect this on IE? it doesn't on Safari/Chromium/
17:13:21 [SteveZ]: It was noted that Firefox does not allow two values
17:13:57 [SteveZ]: Krit: Webkit uses first for origin and second for clip
17:14:19 [SteveZ]: A third value would make the specification invalid
17:15:26 [SteveZ]: Fantasai: the spec is clear about the intended value; there used to be only one allowed value and then two were allowed
17:16:03 [SteveZ]: DBaron: I prefer leaving it as it is because it is easier to implement
17:16:52 [SteveZ]: krit: both Webkit and Opera correctly implement a single value, two values and ignoring the property if a third value is set
17:17:32 [SteveZ]: PLinss: there are 3 implementations that agree, but do not implement the spec and one implementation that does implement the spec
17:17:59 [SteveZ]: Sylvain: If we make a change theat would put us back to LC
17:18:41 [SteveZ]: Fantasai: We have to go to LC anyway to allow the inset and color keywords to be re-ordered
17:19:12 [SteveZ]: ACTION krit to provide test case
17:19:12 [trackbot]: Sorry, couldn't find krit. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/users>.
17:19:43 [SteveZ]: ACTION Dirk to provide test case
17:19:43 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-524 - Provide test case [on Dirk Schulze - due 2012-12-05].
17:20:17 [SteveZ]: PLinss: we will revisit next week after test is posted
17:20:33 [SteveZ]: 2. css3-text/text-decor
17:20:55 [SteveZ]: Fantasai: are there any more issues?
17:21:24 [SteveZ]: PLinss: this is the LC for LC so we can decide to publish LC next week
17:22:06 [SteveZ]: Fantasai: want to insure everyone, including JDaggett, can file any issues they have
17:22:34 [SteveZ]: Topic: 3. FX TF meetings
17:23:17 [Zakim]: +??P3
17:23:17 [SteveZ]: Dirk: There were FX TF meetings in the past with CSS and SVG folks; they stopped when CSS participation dropped
17:23:33 [SteveZ]: Sylvain: What time will these meetings be?
17:24:31 [SteveZ]: Dirk: there are attendees in Japan and Australia so we need to accommodate them; it was 10-11PM in Europe
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17:25:03 [SteveZ]: DBaron: Will these meeting be regular.
17:25:13 [cabanier]: cabanier: they used to be Monday afternoon PST
17:25:28 [SteveZ]: Dirk: How about having a meeting only if there is an agenda
17:25:56 [SteveZ]: DBaron: that is OK if the agenda comes at least 2 days prior to the meeting
17:26:20 [SteveZ]: Dirk: I had sent agendas on the Wednesday prior to a following Monday meeting
17:26:38 [SteveZ]: DBaron: I would join depending the the topics
17:27:15 [SteveZ]: Dirk: the SF time was 1:30PM on Mondays
17:28:20 [tantek]: I would monitor it
17:28:40 [SteveZ]: DBaron: I would prefer every other week so I can put a chron entry in my calendar
17:29:10 [SteveZ]: Dirk: How about every even week?
17:29:13 [dbaron]: but every week is fine too
17:29:27 [SteveZ]: DBaron: I can live with every week and cancelling as well
17:29:34 [cabanier]: It's unlikely that there will be many meetings in a row
17:29:44 [SteveZ]: Topic: 4. viewport units (vw/vh/vmin/vmax) and varying page size
17:29:45 [SteveZ]: ---------------------------------------------------------
17:29:47 [SteveZ]: http://www.w3.org/mid/50A04DD2.1030309@kozea.fr
17:31:06 [SteveZ]: Simon: viewport units are based on the initial containing block which is only the first page, but units should vary across varying size pages
17:31:39 [SteveZ]: Simon: the first page solution is easier to implement;, but makes them useless for varying size pages
17:32:06 [SteveZ]: PLinss: what happens with a entity is split across pages of different size
17:32:59 [SteveZ]: Simon: If we choose that viewport units depend on the current page, then the width may vary across pages
17:33:59 [SteveZ]: Rossen: This is the same problem as exists with percentages where fragments fit into different size containers
17:34:04 [fantasai]: zakim, who is here?
17:34:05 [Zakim]: On the phone I see leif (muted), krit, glazou, plinss, glenn, [Microsoft], +1.253.307.aadd, dbaron, +1.206.512.aaff, Stearns, ??P77, smfr, +1.619.846.aahh, SteveZ, fantasai,
17:34:08 [Zakim]: ... SimonSapin, dino
17:34:08 [Zakim]: [Microsoft] has JohnJansen
17:34:08 [Zakim]: On IRC I see tantek, jet, cabanier, dino, emalasky, SteveZ, oyvind, smfr, dbaron, JohnJansen, leif, SimonSapin, rhauck, lmclister, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, krit, glenn, logbot,
17:34:09 [Zakim]: ... antonp, SamB_MacG5, danielfilho|w, darktears, drublic, teoli_, isherman
17:34:32 [sylvaing]: Zakim, aaff is me
17:34:32 [Zakim]: +sylvaing; got it
17:34:48 [SteveZ]: Rossen: It is not that different to have the viewport relative values be computed differently for each fragment
17:35:36 [SteveZ]: Rossen: IE does take advantage of the current initial containing block so I would be in favor of keeping that behavior.
17:35:58 [SteveZ]: Simon: I agree that the viewport unit computation is like percentages
17:36:26 [cabanier]: * FYI I'm not on the phone *
17:37:00 [SteveZ]: Simon: If we go with using the current page then the computed value of every property would need to change to say and absolute value or a viewport unit
17:37:08 [Zakim]: - +1.619.846.aahh
17:37:32 [Zakim]: +Tab_Atkins
17:37:42 [Zakim]: + +1.619.846.aaii
17:38:04 [SteveZ]: Rossen: this is not the case because all the values (today) are bound to an element so you only get one value per element
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17:39:37 [SteveZ]: Rossen: The API today is defined on an element that implies a single value per property. This does not allow returning the values for all the fragements an element might divide into
17:40:21 [SteveZ]: Rossen: to solve this you would need to get the used values of the boxes (for the fragments)
17:41:15 [SteveZ]: DBaron: If is not just about the API, it is about the concept of "computed value" and whether viewport units can be computed to a lenght within that concept
17:41:52 [SteveZ]: Rossen: making the change to use the current page would make the value dependent on layout and would vliolate the "computed value" rule
17:42:53 [SteveZ]: DBaron: We decided (not that long ago) that we wanted viewport values to compute to a length. I believe that we did this knowing it would not work with varying page sizes
17:43:17 [SteveZ]: DBaron: changing this would cause current implementations to start over
17:43:56 [SteveZ]: Fantasai: When you do not have varying page sizes you get the same results with either approach.
17:44:40 [Zakim]: -??P77
17:44:42 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft.a]
17:44:46 [SteveZ]: Fantasai: Add a note to the spec to say that the interpretation may change in the future if varying page sizes become important
17:45:06 [Rossen]: Zakim, [Microsoft.a] is me
17:45:06 [Zakim]: +Rossen; got it
17:45:54 [SteveZ]: Tab: We cannot change it in the future if we want viewport units to be computed values
17:48:09 [SteveZ]: Simon: we need to change the note in Values and Units if we keep the first page rule
17:48:29 [SteveZ]: Fantasai: there may be other places that need to be updated as well
17:48:57 [SteveZ]: Fantasai: Do we want to allow either interpretation being conformant?
17:49:06 [SteveZ]: Rossen:
17:49:55 [SteveZ]: Tab: a viewport unit that changes by the page will not be a 'definite size' (in the sizing spec) because it will depend on layout
17:50:38 [SteveZ]: This means that the two choices are not "the same" for constant size pages
17:51:34 [SteveZ]: Tab: making the unit conform to the varying page size makes viewport units be used value units rather than computed value units
17:52:41 [Zakim]: -SimonSapin
17:53:11 [Zakim]: +SimonSapin
17:53:34 [SimonSapin]: (phone operator cutting calls after ~45 minutes …)
17:53:43 [SteveZ]: PLinss: i am reluctant to making a decision that would not allow viewport units to depend on the actual page size
17:54:43 [Zakim]: -dino
17:54:50 [SteveZ]: SteveZ: the viewport units are absolute so that a rotated table would use the vh to set its width
17:55:22 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
17:55:23 [plinss]: s/not allow viewport units/not allow initial containing block/
17:55:41 [SteveZ]: RESOVLED: keep the spedification of viewport units the same as now; that is that the first page is used
17:56:08 [SteveZ]: Topic: 5. CR Exit Criteria
17:56:09 [SimonSapin]: action to update the v&u note?
17:56:09 [trackbot]: Sorry, couldn't find to. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/users>.
17:56:09 [fantasai]: ACTION fantasai edit the spec
17:56:09 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-525 - Edit the spec [on Elika Etemad - due 2012-12-05].
17:56:10 [SteveZ]: -------------------
17:56:11 [SteveZ]: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2012OctDec/0219.html
17:57:13 [SteveZ]: Tab: I do not know if anyone objected to the conclusion: namely, that if one person writes the code, even if in different products, that is considered to be one implementation
17:58:00 [stearns]: there's nothing restricting someone working on more than one implementation - there's just a requirement to go and find a third implementation in that case
17:58:34 [SteveZ]: PLinss: I would not change our CR wording because because I want to allow time varying participation in different products
17:59:24 [SteveZ]: DBaron and others: I do not think we need to further define "independent"; it's meaning in English is sufficient
18:00:28 [Zakim]: -krit
18:00:30 [Zakim]: -leif
18:00:33 [SteveZ]: PLinss: if the tester writes his tests by reading the spec; that means a second pair of eyes came to the same interpretation as the implementer
18:00:34 [Zakim]: -fantasai
18:00:36 [Zakim]: -Rossen
18:00:36 [Zakim]: -Tab_Atkins
18:00:36 [Zakim]: -dbaron
18:00:38 [Zakim]: - +1.253.307.aadd
18:00:38 [Zakim]: -sylvaing
18:00:39 [Zakim]: - +1.619.846.aaii
18:00:40 [Zakim]: -Stearns
18:00:40 [Zakim]: -plinss
18:00:41 [Zakim]: -SimonSapin
18:00:45 [Zakim]: -[IPcaller]
18:00:51 [hober]: Zakim, aaii is me
18:00:51 [Zakim]: sorry, hober, I do not recognize a party named 'aaii'
18:00:52 [SteveZ]: RRSagend, make minutes
18:00:52 [Zakim]: -smfr
18:00:52 [Zakim]: -[Microsoft]
18:00:58 [smfr]: smfr has left #css
18:01:03 [Zakim]: -glazou
18:01:12 [Zakim]: -glenn
18:01:23 [SteveZ]: RRSagent, make minutes
18:01:23 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/28-css-minutes.html SteveZ
18:01:37 [SimonSapin]: SimonSapin has joined #css
18:01:46 [SteveZ]: Meeting ended at 10:00
18:02:04 [Zakim]: -SteveZ
18:02:05 [Zakim]: Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
18:02:05 [Zakim]: Attendees were +47.23.69.aaaa, +1.415.832.aabb, krit, leif, glazou, +33.9.52.34.aacc, SimonSapin, plinss, glenn, +1.253.307.aadd, +1.415.766.aaee, dbaron, +1.206.512.aaff, Stearns,
18:02:05 [Zakim]: ... +1.408.636.aagg, smfr, +1.619.846.aahh, JohnJansen, SteveZ, fantasai, dino, sylvaing, Tab_Atkins, +1.619.846.aaii, [Microsoft], Rossen, [IPcaller]
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18:40:02 [SimonSapin]: fantasai: ping
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21:02:06 [fantasai]: SimonSapin: pong
21:02:37 [SimonSapin]: fantasai: have you got a chance to look at the css3-page stuff?
21:18:45 [jet]: jet has joined #CSS
21:33:58 [Ms2ger]: fantasai, shouldn't we get http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/selectors-api2/#grammar in a selectors spec?
21:39:08 [fantasai]: SimonSapin: not really. Hopefully will get to that this week.
21:39:51 [fantasai]: Ms2ger: Maybe? I'll file it as an issue.
21:39:59 [Ms2ger]: Thanks
21:43:05 [Ms2ger]: Time for a vacation ;);
21:44:57 [fantasai]: yeah
21:48:59 [SimonSapin]: fantasai: page stuff can wait too ;)
21:49:27 [fantasai]: well, I'm not off this week anyway :)
21:52:59 [SimonSapin]: fantasai: should I add myself to the editors list?
21:53:54 [fantasai]: yes
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