16:00:06 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pointerevents
16:00:06 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/11/27-pointerevents-irc
16:00:12 <ArtB> Scribe: Art
16:00:17 <ArtB> ScribeNick: ArtB
16:00:33 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
16:00:36 <ArtB> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2012JulSep/0005.html
16:00:36 <Zakim> +??P2
16:00:42 <ArtB> Date: 27 November 2012
16:00:46 <ArtB> Chair: Art
16:00:52 <ArtB> Meeting: Pointer Events WG Voice Conference
16:01:02 <rbyers> Present+ Rick_Byers
16:01:02 <ArtB> Regrets: Jacob_Rossi, Olli_Pettay
16:01:14 <ArtB> zakim, who is here?
16:01:14 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Microsoft], Art_Barstow, Doug_Schepers, ??P2
16:01:15 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, scott_gonzalez, Zakim, ArtB, smaug, sangwhan, rbyers, shepazu, trackbot
16:01:15 <Zakim> + +1.717.578.aaaa
16:01:36 <ArtB> zakim, aaaa is Scott_González
16:01:36 <Zakim> +Scott_González; got it
16:02:06 <mbrubeck> mbrubeck has joined #pointerevents
16:02:20 <ArtB> Present: Art_Barstow, Doug_Schepers, Scott_González, Rick_Byers, Asir_Vedamuthu, Cathy_Chan
16:02:46 <ArtB> Topic: Scribe
16:02:51 <rbyers> Zakin, ??P2 is rbyers
16:02:55 <ArtB> AB: we need a scribe. The basic instructions are in our Meeting wiki <http://www.w3.org/wiki/PointerEvents/Meetings>
16:02:59 <rbyers> Zakim, ??P2 is rbyers
16:02:59 <Zakim> +rbyers; got it
16:03:05 <Zakim> +Matt_Brubeck
16:03:13 <ArtB> Present+ Matt_Brubeck
16:03:15 <mbrubeck> Zakim, I am Matt_Brubeck
16:03:15 <Zakim> ok, mbrubeck, I now associate you with Matt_Brubeck
16:03:36 <ArtB> RB: I can do so
16:03:44 <ArtB> Scribe+ Rick_Byers
16:03:50 <ArtB> ScribeNick: rbyers
16:03:51 <rbyers> Scribe: Rick_Byers
16:04:12 <rbyers> Topic: Tweaking the agenda
16:05:03 <rbyers> All: no changes to agenda
16:05:06 <rbyers> Topic: Introductions
16:05:13 <Zakim> +??P26
16:05:25 <rbyers> Art: Represents Nokia and was chair of WebEvents.
16:05:35 <rbyers> ... Interested in having a single touch API for the web
16:05:45 <rbyers> ... Also our chair
16:05:58 <rbyers> Doug: I'm the W3C staff contact.
16:06:14 <rbyers> ... Also interesting in having a touch model that is fairly universally supported
16:06:37 <ArtB> Rick: I am a sw engineer at Google focusing on Chrome desktop
16:06:48 <ArtB> … want people to be able to create touch based apps
16:06:57 <ArtB> … we think PE provides a good path forward
16:07:03 <rbyers> Peter: also software engineer at Google
16:07:12 <rbyers> ... same reasons as google
16:07:32 <rbyers> Asir: From Microsoft
16:07:35 <Cathy> Cathy has joined #pointerevents
16:07:44 <rbyers> ... Interested in getting pointer events used everywhere
16:07:52 <Cathy> Cathy has joined #pointerevents
16:07:54 <rbyers> Matt: Work at Mozilla, worked previously on firefox for Android
16:08:00 <rbyers> ... Now working on Firefox for Windows 8
16:08:06 <rbyers> ... Was one if the editors of touch events spec
16:08:20 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make log Public
16:08:21 <rbyers> Kathy: From nokia
16:08:28 <rbyers> ... also want a unified touch model
16:08:29 <ArtB> s/Kathy/Cathy/
16:08:45 <rbyers> Scott: project lead for jQuery UI
16:08:58 <rbyers> ... don't want to work with touch events because they have a different structure than mouse events
16:09:02 <asir> asir has joined #pointerevents
16:09:13 <rbyers> ... want to build a wrapper around mouse and touch to bring pointer support to browsers that don't have it
16:09:24 <rbyers> Topic: group dynamics
16:09:34 <rbyers> ArtB: Peter is Peter Beverloo
16:09:47 <rbyers> zakim, who is here?
16:09:47 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Microsoft], Art_Barstow, Doug_Schepers, rbyers, Scott_González, Matt_Brubeck, ??P26
16:09:50 <Zakim> On IRC I see asir, Cathy, mbrubeck, RRSAgent, scott_gonzalez, Zakim, ArtB, smaug, sangwhan, rbyers, shepazu, trackbot
16:09:57 <rbyers> Present+ Peter_Beverloo
16:10:31 <rbyers> Art: Same basic model as touch events
16:10:43 <rbyers> ... key differences: will use bugzilla for bugs
16:10:48 <rbyers> ... and will have a separate scribe
16:11:09 <rbyers> ... if something isn't recorded correctly in meeting minutes, it's everyone's responsibility to ensure they're corrected
16:11:28 <rbyers> ... will use tracker for action tracking - mostly for Doug/Art to keep track of administrative tasks
16:12:04 <rbyers> ... didn't want to spend time on more procedural stuff
16:12:08 <rbyers> ... unless there are questions?
16:12:33 <rbyers> Doug: want to make it clear we are not dealing with gestures here
16:12:59 <rbyers> ... gestures are a legitimate interest, but we can talk about it in another context.
16:13:11 <rbyers> Topic: Use cases and requirements
16:13:17 <ArtB> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2012OctDec/0028.html
16:14:07 <rbyers> Art: having requirements and use cases documented really does simplify how we focus
16:14:26 <rbyers> ... eg. what we should focus on in v1 vs. future version
16:14:34 <rbyers> ... Is someone willing to commit to leading this effort?
16:14:37 <Zakim> + +1.770.402.aabb
16:14:59 <ArtB> ACTION: barstow Create a UC and Reqs document for PE spec and look contributions
16:14:59 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1 - Create a UC and Reqs document for PE spec and look contributions [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-12-04].
16:15:20 <rbyers> Topic: testing
16:15:41 <rbyers> Art: usually a mistake to consider testing as an after thought
16:16:04 <rbyers> ... will use testharness.js
16:16:11 <rbyers> ... used by many other working groups
16:16:52 <rbyers> ... Expectation is that everyone will contribute to the testing effort
16:17:03 <rbyers> ... It may not be the most glamourous but it's essential
16:17:20 <rbyers> ... Do recommend 12 people active in the testing effort
16:17:39 <rbyers> ... Would be helpful to have someone commit to being the group's test facilitator
16:18:21 <rbyers> ... Anyone willing to step up?
16:18:44 <rbyers> Matt: I can take it on
16:18:49 <rbyers> Matt rocks
16:19:23 <rbyers> Topic: the spec itself
16:19:33 <ArtB> —> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/raw-file/tip/pointerEvents.html
16:20:16 <ArtB> Present+ Jacob_Rossi
16:20:17 <rbyers> Present+ Jacob_Rossi
16:20:43 <rbyers> Art: we've had a few bugs / issues on the list
16:20:54 <rbyers> ... but bugzilla was just created so we need to create bugs for them
16:21:02 <rbyers> ... everyone on the list should feel free to create bugs at any time
16:21:47 <rbyers> ... specifically: francois issue on pressure, Rick's issue on mouseenter/leave, Rick's issue on touch event mapping
16:21:57 <rbyers> Jacob: appreciate great feedback on the list so far
16:22:08 <rbyers> ... still catching up on e-mail from the past week
16:22:31 <rbyers> ... mouseenter/leave - probably ALL mouse events should be optional
16:22:40 <rbyers> ... model we'd like to push for in the future is that authors write only to pointer events
16:22:59 <rbyers> ... also was an issue with a section that got dropped
16:23:33 <rbyers> Rick: was it intentional that there was no pointer enter / leave?
16:23:44 <rbyers> Jacob: are important, believe we should add it
16:23:46 <mbrubeck> Zakim, who is talking?
16:23:53 <rbyers> ... really just didn't have time to get to them in IE10
16:23:57 <Zakim> mbrubeck, listening for 11 seconds I could not identify any sounds
16:24:04 <rbyers> ... welcome addition to the spec from my perspective
16:24:21 <rbyers> Art: process going forward:
16:24:29 <mbrubeck> Zakim, who is talking?
16:24:34 <rbyers> ... use bugzilla to handle issues, and
16:24:41 <Zakim> mbrubeck, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [Microsoft] (4%), Art_Barstow (19%)
16:24:42 <rbyers> ... continue to discuss on list
16:24:49 <ArtB> ACTION: Jacob create issues for the initial comments for the PE spec
16:24:49 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2 - Create issues for the initial comments for the PE spec [on Jacob Rossi - due 2012-12-04].
16:25:21 <rbyers> Jacob: most interesting conversation so far is about pressure
16:25:35 <rbyers> ... but would personally like to do some research first
16:26:19 <rbyers> Rick: do we want to talk about touch event mapping here?
16:26:34 <ArtB> —> Mapping e-mail from Rick http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2012OctDec/0047.html
16:26:42 <rbyers> Matt: haven't had a chance to do experimenting yet
16:27:12 <rbyers> Jacob: would like touch-event mapping section to be non-normative
16:27:16 <rbyers> ... or optional
16:28:24 <rbyers> Art: Agree documentation should be written, but we need to be careful about how we document the mapping
16:28:41 <rbyers> ... could define mapping in the context of the web events working group
16:29:05 <rbyers> ... could have PE working group define it in non-normative way, eg. with a note in pe spec or separate document
16:30:23 <rbyers> Doug: there is no process here, if issues arise we'll deal with them
16:31:35 <rbyers> Jacob: may be better to do in the context of web events - so someone coming across the touch events spec sees that there's a newer model...
16:32:43 <rbyers> Rick: will commit to writing it up
16:32:54 <rbyers> Art: will work with you on getting it in the right place / format
16:34:00 <asir> I mentioned that this can be in a separate non-normative doc on the Working Group Note track
16:34:30 <rbyers> Rick: only concern is that we may need to tweak pointer event spec slightly to allow behavior that dopesn't break touch events
16:34:58 <rbyers> Jacob: agree is worth accomodating in the PE spec
16:35:10 <rbyers> asir: feel free to open issues
16:35:52 <rbyers> Asir: first milestone is public draft in December
16:36:02 <rbyers> Art: there was a change, actually first milestone is January
16:36:12 <rbyers> Asir: looking for editors?
16:36:39 <rbyers> Art: Jacob is currently editor.  If members of the group make "relatively substantial contributions" then that would provide an option to become a co-editor
16:37:25 <rbyers> Art: with respect to first public working draft, that's a WG decision on when we want to make that
16:37:42 <rbyers> ... window of opportunity to get one this month is closing rapidly
16:38:11 <rbyers> Jacob: what are people's thoughts on what's missing for first draft?
16:38:36 <rbyers> Art: from process perspective: looking for breadth of feature set
16:39:07 <rbyers> ... signal to members that when making IP commitments, spec is at state that it can be reviewed for potential IP concerns members may have
16:39:29 <rbyers> ... but no expectation that first draft will have depth
16:40:02 <rbyers> Doug: would be really valuable to have spec out as soon as possible
16:42:11 <rbyers> Rick: eg. if we wanted to expand touch-action list to include more of the things in IE10, is that something we should try to get in the first draft?
16:42:29 <rbyers> Asir: could be as issues listed in the spec
16:42:47 <rbyers> Doug: first public working draft carries patent and royalty-free license commitment
16:43:25 <rbyers> Doug: the more we have in there, the stronger the signal is that all members agree...
16:43:37 <rbyers> Art: first draft is by no means a feature freeze
16:43:44 <rbyers> ... that's the last call draft
16:44:11 <rbyers> ... ideal to touch all features in first draft, but doesn't have to
16:44:32 <rbyers> ... should get potential features into bugzilla
16:44:47 <rbyers> Jacob: always easier to add to spec then to remove
16:44:57 <rbyers> ... so prefer tracking in bugzilla
16:45:29 <ArtB> ACTION: jacob add a link to Bugzilla in the Status of this Document section
16:45:30 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3 - Add a link to Bugzilla in the Status of this Document section [on Jacob Rossi - due 2012-12-04].
16:45:45 <rbyers> Rick: ok to file issues for feature wish list, even if unlikely for v1?
16:46:04 <rbyers> Jacob: yes please - hard to track down later
16:46:15 <ArtB> ACTION: barstow work with Doug and Rick re how to document TouchEvents / PointerEvents Mapping
16:46:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-4 - Work with Doug and Rick re how to document TouchEvents / PointerEvents Mapping [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-12-04].
16:47:10 <rbyers> Zakim, who is talking?
16:47:20 <Zakim> rbyers, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [Microsoft] (8%), Art_Barstow (5%), Doug_Schepers (57%)
16:47:48 <rbyers> Doug: feel free to file lots of issues even without discussion on list
16:47:58 <rbyers> ... but may be a good idea to send e-mail to the list with a summary
16:48:14 <rbyers> Asir: if changes are made in bugzilla are notifications sent out?
16:48:34 <rbyers> Art: when issues are created, notification goes to list
16:48:46 <rbyers> ... at that point people should add themselves as cc if they are interested in seeing updates
16:49:04 <rbyers> ... when bug is closed, e-mail goes out to list again
16:50:46 <rbyers> ACTION: barstow find out how to auto-cc specific people or list on all bug updates [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-12-04]
16:50:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-5 - find out how to auto-cc specific people or list on all bug updates [on Arthur Barstow [on Arthur Barstow - due 1970-01-01].
16:51:29 <rbyers> Art: any other comments on the spec for today?
16:52:51 <rbyers> Rick/Asir/Jacob: supportive of publishing as soon as possible with link to list of open issues
16:53:13 <rbyers> Art: ok, next call we'll propose publishing first draft in December
16:53:16 <rbyers> Topic: AoB
16:53:31 <rbyers> Art: we will have a call next week
16:53:39 <rbyers> ... proposal to publish first public working draft
16:54:01 <rbyers> ... any other topics from the list will be on the agenda
16:54:10 <rbyers> Same time next tuesday
16:54:19 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
16:54:22 <Zakim> - +1.770.402.aabb
16:54:23 <Zakim> -rbyers
16:54:24 <Zakim> -Scott_González
16:54:25 <Zakim> -Art_Barstow
16:54:37 <Zakim> -Matt_Brubeck
16:54:41 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
16:54:55 <Zakim> -??P26
16:54:56 <Zakim> RWC_PEWG()11:00AM has ended
16:54:56 <Zakim> Attendees were [Microsoft], Art_Barstow, Doug_Schepers, +1.717.578.aaaa, Scott_González, rbyers, Matt_Brubeck, +1.770.402.aabb
16:55:22 <asir> zakim, [Microsoft] is Asir Selvasingh
16:55:22 <Zakim> I don't understand '[Microsoft] is Asir Selvasingh', asir
16:55:41 <rbyers> zakim, rbyers is Rick_Byers
16:55:41 <Zakim> sorry, rbyers, I do not recognize a party named 'rbyers'
16:56:09 <rbyers> asir: maybe just a missing _ in your case?
16:56:11 <asir> zakim, asir is Asir Selvasingh
16:56:11 <Zakim> I don't understand 'asir is Asir Selvasingh', asir
16:56:22 <mbrubeck> Zakim, nick asir is Asir_Selvasingh
16:56:22 <Zakim> sorry, mbrubeck, I do not see a party named 'Asir_Selvasingh'
16:56:24 <rbyers> (names can't have spaces I believe)
16:56:31 <asir> i see
16:56:33 <mbrubeck> Zakim, nick rbyers is Rick_Byers
16:56:33 <Zakim> sorry, mbrubeck, I do not see a party named 'Rick_Byers'
16:56:53 <mbrubeck> Zakim, [Microsoft] is really Asir_Selvasingh
16:56:53 <Zakim> sorry, mbrubeck, I do not recognize a party named '[Microsoft]'
16:56:57 <mbrubeck> heh
16:57:00 <rbyers> heh
17:15:07 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:15:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/27-pointerevents-minutes.html ArtB
17:31:02 <ArtB> zakim, bye
17:31:02 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pointerevents
17:31:08 <ArtB> rrsagent, bye
17:31:08 <RRSAgent> I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/27-pointerevents-actions.rdf :
17:31:08 <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow Create a UC and Reqs document for PE spec and look contributions [1]
17:31:08 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/27-pointerevents-irc#T16-14-59
17:31:08 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Jacob create issues for the initial comments for the PE spec [2]
17:31:08 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/27-pointerevents-irc#T16-24-49
17:31:08 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jacob add a link to Bugzilla in the Status of this Document section [3]
17:31:08 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/27-pointerevents-irc#T16-45-29
17:31:08 <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow work with Doug and Rick re how to document TouchEvents / PointerEvents Mapping [4]
17:31:08 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/27-pointerevents-irc#T16-46-15
17:31:08 <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow find out how to auto-cc specific people or list on all bug updates [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-12-04] [5]
17:31:08 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/27-pointerevents-irc#T16-50-46