IRC log of mlw-lt on 2012-11-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:00:10 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/11/26-mlw-lt-irc
16:00:26 [Zakim]
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16:00:35 [fsasaki]
meeting: mlw-lt WG
16:00:36 [fsasaki]
chair: felix
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16:00:53 [Yves_]
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16:00:53 [Jirka]
present +Jirka
16:01:04 [Ankit]
present +Ankit
16:01:04 [dF]
present +dF
16:01:06 [Yves_]
present+ Yves_
16:01:22 [fsasaki]
present+ felix
16:01:29 [Des]
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16:01:45 [daveL]
present+ daveL
16:02:02 [fsasaki]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Nov/0210.html
16:02:13 [fsasaki]
regrets: Christian, Naoto, Jörg
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I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/26-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
16:02:42 [kfritsche]
present+ kfritsche
16:02:45 [DomJones1]
present+ DomJones
16:02:47 [Des]
present +Des
16:02:50 [leroy]
present+ leroy
16:02:52 [omstefanov]
present+ omstefanov
16:02:58 [pnietoca]
present+ pnietoca
16:02:59 [philr]
present +philr
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I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/26-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
16:03:31 [Arle]
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16:03:31 [chriLi]
present+ chrLi
16:03:36 [Arle]
present+
16:03:42 [Pedro]
present+ Pedro
16:03:46 [Arle]
present+ Arle
16:04:22 [fsasaki]
present+ christian
16:04:43 [Milan]
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16:04:53 [fsasaki]
scribe: dF
16:05:04 [fsasaki]
topic: Test suite
16:05:15 [fsasaki]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt-tests/2012Nov/0071.html
16:05:41 [dF]
fsasaki: What is the nature of the second milestone?
16:05:51 [dF]
.. can you summarize?
16:06:19 [fsasaki]
see milestones also at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgIk0-aoSKOadG5HQmJDT2EybWVvVC1VbnF5alN2S3c#gid=0
16:06:23 [dF]
DomJones1: M2 is less formal
16:07:05 [dF]
.. M3 and on are stronger, more formal
16:07:17 [dF]
Yves_: nothing to add
16:07:50 [dF]
philr: I would have approached it in a meaningfully different way
16:08:21 [dF]
.. does everybody need to implement all the categories?
16:08:55 [dF]
fsasaki: the minimum is 2 implementations that produce the test suite output
16:09:28 [dF]
.. as discussed, it is for demonstrating interoperability
16:09:56 [dF]
.. we need the extra effort to show that the implementations do the same across scenarios
16:10:00 [fsasaki]
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgIk0-aoSKOadG5HQmJDT2EybWVvVC1VbnF5alN2S3c#gid=0
16:10:23 [dF]
.. the recorded commitments are for the test suite
16:10:40 [DomJones1]
q+
16:11:01 [DomJones1]
ack
16:11:01 [dF]
philr: are there strong rulings re parsing methods?
16:11:40 [fsasaki]
ack Dom
16:11:43 [dF]
fsasaki: there are no such rules, just input and output files, no questions for your methodology in between
16:11:49 [omstefanov]
will there be any independent running of these tests?
16:11:55 [Fredrik]
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16:12:17 [chriLi]
+queue
16:12:55 [dF]
leroy: people asked if they can modify test suite files
16:13:18 [dF]
.. can correct obvious errors, but discuss anything other before changing
16:13:25 [fsasaki]
ack chr
16:14:16 [dF]
chriLi: more general question, any decision for using test case, mandate for use cases?
16:14:24 [omstefanov]
+omstefanov
16:14:30 [fsasaki]
http://www.w3.org/2012/09/mlw-lt-charter.html
16:14:35 [omstefanov]
+queue
16:14:37 [dF]
fsasaki: test suite is w3c requirement
16:14:53 [mdelolmo]
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16:14:57 [dF]
.. CR phase should start in March
16:15:18 [dF]
.. test suite is critical for proving interoperability during CR
16:15:28 [dF]
.. any other questions?
16:15:39 [fsasaki]
present+ mdelolmo
16:15:40 [fsasaki]
present+ des
16:15:41 [dF]
Des: question on timing..
16:16:06 [dF]
.. I could not do it within the publicly given time frame
16:16:32 [dF]
fsasaki: are you referring to your implementation effort?
16:16:40 [dF]
Des: yes
16:17:21 [dF]
fsasaki: Do not worry, with exception of LQ Precis, all categories are covered by other commitments
16:17:44 [dF]
.. continue contributing tests
16:17:52 [fsasaki]
action: felix to nudge data category ownser to contribute to test suite
16:17:52 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-318 - Nudge data category ownser to contribute to test suite [on Felix Sasaki - due 2012-12-03].
16:18:08 [DomJones1]
Wanted to ask / minute that if any implementors have any issues with keeping to test-suite dates could they please let Dominic know as soon as possible. This way we can work with you to match resources and the time frame.
16:18:33 [dF]
Action: Felix to nudge data category owners asking for test suite contributions by the end of the year
16:18:34 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-319 - Nudge data category owners asking for test suite contributions by the end of the year [on Felix Sasaki - due 2012-12-03].
16:19:00 [fsasaki]
topic: Drop localization quality precis
16:19:25 [fsasaki]
http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/its20/its20.html#lqprecis
16:19:35 [dF]
checking of global rules did not progress
16:19:41 [fsasaki]
"100 (inclusive) with higher values indicating a better score"
16:19:59 [fsasaki]
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgIk0-aoSKOadG5HQmJDT2EybWVvVC1VbnF5alN2S3c#gid=0
16:20:16 [dF]
fsasaki: It is hard to read, contains nested rules, not enough work here, not enough test suite commitments
16:20:41 [dF]
.. only Vistatec and UL committing to test this, this is thin
16:21:17 [dF]
.. looking for a champion, no need to actually edit the spec, but needs work on exact specification text
16:21:39 [dF]
philr: I feel it has a role to play
16:22:20 [dF]
.. there was a vision for far reaching mechanism, eventually non-normative..
16:22:39 [dF]
.. I am not up to speed with tool ref, which might be the issue
16:23:04 [dF]
.. I will try my best to move this by the end of this week
16:23:32 [dF]
.. I agree it must be dropped if little progress this week
16:23:51 [dF]
fsasaki: E.g. readiness was dropped due to lack of consensus
16:24:36 [dF]
.. this might mean tabling till the 2.1
16:24:39 [fsasaki]
action: phil to work on lq precis to see if we can keep it in the spec
16:24:39 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-320 - Work on lq precis to see if we can keep it in the spec [on Phil Ritchie - due 2012-12-03].
16:25:00 [dF]
Arle: offering help to philr to work on the category by the end of this week
16:25:26 [dF]
philr: accepting help offer..
16:25:35 [Jirka]
yep
16:25:40 [dF]
fsasaki: creating action 320
16:25:57 [dF]
Jirka: Should I add it to the schema?
16:26:28 [dF]
fsasaki: This cannot wait for the next week because Jirla is working on the normative schema
16:26:50 [dF]
.. we would need hard commitment or drop it
16:27:13 [dF]
.. results by tomorrow, or so.., would that work?
16:27:22 [Jirka]
yep, wed is ok
16:27:24 [dF]
philr: wed lunch time?
16:27:56 [fsasaki]
topic: Closing ISSUE-42 tools information
16:27:59 [dF]
Arle and philr agreeing working time Wed morning, forming LQP task force
16:28:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/26-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
16:28:53 [dF]
fsasaki: last mail from Yves
16:29:17 [dF]
Yves_: we need to have this attribute specified for some categories
16:29:25 [dF]
.. like mtConfidence
16:30:03 [dF]
.. thing getting hairy on the global side, becuase it can have different inheritance behavior to the category
16:30:28 [dF]
.. it might be OK on local level only, but you could not address attributes
16:30:56 [dF]
.. we might rule out a bunch of formats.. we seem to be running in circles
16:31:08 [dF]
fsasaki: another proposal by Dave
16:31:42 [dF]
daveL: scared by global rules here, i.e. agreement with Yves basically
16:32:13 [dF]
.. argument, you need it cases where schema cannot be changed, might not need it anyway
16:32:43 [chriLi]
What's the reference to Yves' mail?
16:32:54 [dF]
.. local expression of tool ref might inherit to attributes, unclear if we say so.
16:33:20 [dF]
fsasaki: Can we close the issue as is
16:33:47 [dF]
Yves_: the caveat is that in mtConfdence you would need both global and local
16:34:16 [dF]
fsasaki: It would be soved with a note? we even do not need a note..
16:34:23 [dF]
Yves_: agreed
16:34:27 [fsasaki]
close issues-42
16:34:33 [fsasaki]
close issue-42
16:34:33 [trackbot]
ISSUE-42 Tool and confidence related information is similar for mtConfidence, textAnalysisAnnotation, quality closed
16:34:45 [fsasaki]
https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/open
16:35:13 [dF]
next topics: editorial isssues, and xliff mapping
16:35:43 [fsasaki]
topic: Actions needed for the LC draft
16:35:53 [fsasaki]
action-286?
16:35:53 [trackbot]
ACTION-286 -- Shaun McCance to put data category table into non-normative appendix in the spec -- due 2012-11-19 -- OPEN
16:35:53 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/actions/286
16:35:55 [dF]
fsasaki: I formally invite people to express any issues with normative parts of the spec for LC
16:36:27 [fsasaki]
action: felix to take over shauns action itemt on data category table
16:36:27 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-321 - Take over shauns action itemt on data category table [on Felix Sasaki - due 2012-12-03].
16:36:33 [dF]
fsasaki: taking over Shaun's action item to create data category table
16:36:52 [Jirka]
done
16:37:21 [dF]
fsasaki: question about normativeness of schema
16:37:56 [dF]
fsasaki: RelaxNG is the normative
16:38:23 [dF]
.. XML schema will be mostly automatically generated, informative
16:38:29 [fsasaki]
action-314?
16:38:29 [trackbot]
ACTION-314 -- Yves Savourel to check global rules for provenance -- due 2012-11-27 -- CLOSED
16:38:29 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/actions/314
16:38:59 [dF]
fsasaki: Yves did that. Is there a need to chenge anything in the spec?
16:39:21 [dF]
Yves_: Looking at the examples..
16:39:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/26-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
16:39:32 [dF]
issues with mapping to XLIFF
16:40:21 [dF]
toolref and pointers cannot be mapped onto XLIFF
16:40:26 [fsasaki]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Nov/0186.html
16:40:31 [fsasaki]
scribe: fsasaki
16:40:38 [fsasaki]
davidF: if I map MT confidence to XLIFF
16:40:45 [fsasaki]
.. and I don't know who produdced that
16:40:49 [fsasaki]
.. I lost all information
16:41:00 [fsasaki]
yves: not saying you cannot put the information
16:41:09 [fsasaki]
.. but you cannot do that with a pointer
16:41:24 [fsasaki]
dave: Yves is reffering to toolsRef
16:41:30 [fsasaki]
.. have to think about that
16:41:45 [dF]
DaveL: the issue os with toolref in Provenace not the Tool Reference element
16:41:46 [fsasaki]
.. will look at it tonight, we can discuss at the call tomorrow
16:41:53 [fsasaki]
scribe: dF
16:41:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/26-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
16:42:24 [dF]
.. you are right that this might be the only major point for ponters, it might be otherwise good to get rid of pointers
16:42:51 [dF]
.. this will be adressed in the editting call totmorrow
16:43:00 [fsasaki]
action: felix to make sure next call we discuss poiner issues for proveancne and toolsRef
16:43:00 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-322 - Make sure next call we discuss poiner issues for proveancne and toolsRef [on Felix Sasaki - due 2012-12-03].
16:43:32 [dF]
fsasaki: This is to make sure that the group has follow up to the editting call
16:44:23 [dF]
.. harmonization of interval 0-1 iclusive, mial posted by df
16:44:28 [fsasaki]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Nov/0202.html
16:44:50 [dF]
fsasaki: report on number of small changes to the spec
16:45:13 [dF]
.. is there someone on the call who was through them, or volunteers to go through them
16:45:20 [fsasaki]
action: daveL to check edits at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Nov/0202.html
16:45:20 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-323 - Check edits at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Nov/0202.html [on David Lewis - due 2012-12-03].
16:45:47 [dF]
Yves_: Id id not see anything controversial, covered everything but did not go into detail in all
16:45:49 [fsasaki]
topic: Editing calls Tue - Wed
16:46:20 [fsasaki]
felix
16:46:21 [Yves_]
yves
16:46:25 [Arle]
Arle: Tuesday and Wednesday
16:46:31 [kfritsche]
kfritsche
16:46:38 [fsasaki]
dave
16:46:39 [dF]
taking roll call for the partcipation in edittting call Tue and Wed
16:46:40 [pnietoca]
pnietoca
16:46:45 [Jirka]
jirka - probably tue, wed and thu
16:46:59 [fsasaki]
david: I can do the 1st hour tomorrow
16:47:10 [fsasaki]
.. and wednesday the call
16:47:22 [dF]
dF: I can make Wed
16:48:08 [dF]
fsasaki, start meeting with splitting up and fork parallel editting
16:48:34 [dF]
.. meeting agian in an hour or so.., depend on how many have editting set up
16:49:22 [dF]
daveL: might have issues with too many instances of goto, but might do also skype
16:49:46 [chriLi]
+queue
16:49:56 [fsasaki]
ack om
16:50:03 [dF]
fsasaki: editting can be done fully offline, the others can make a coffee break
16:50:44 [dF]
omstafanov: what about independent testing?
16:50:46 [DomJones1]
q+
16:50:58 [dF]
fsasaki: what do you mean by independent?
16:51:41 [dF]
omstefanov: the tests are designed by implmeneters, does any one verify if ENLASO indeed conforms?
16:52:12 [dF]
fsasaki: the idea is that the tests and results are public
16:52:49 [dF]
.. it is OK to base test results on the same library across implementations, but this all will be reviewed by w3c mgmt
16:53:01 [fsasaki]
ack dom
16:53:11 [dF]
omstefanov: thanks, this is answered..
16:53:33 [fsasaki]
ack chri
16:53:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/26-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
16:54:00 [dF]
DomJones1: We hope that the transparent test suite will attract independent implementers (not now in the group)
16:54:44 [dF]
chriLi: not sure if editting is efficient with many on the editting call
16:55:21 [dF]
.. I started going through the spec, normative and non-normative.. Is it a good time to post them now?
16:55:57 [fsasaki]
"not sure if editting is efficient with many on the editting call" (different summary below)
16:56:30 [dF]
fsasaki: Christian is going through explanatory sections, but we need to stabilize the normative parts now..
16:56:52 [dF]
.. what is the time for feedback on non-normative? I say as soon as possible
16:57:12 [fsasaki]
topic: Stability of quality issue types
16:57:39 [fsasaki]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Nov/0208.html
16:57:45 [dF]
fsasaki: Danile is impmenting this
16:58:18 [dF]
.. Arle, does this discussion reveal any changes?
16:58:31 [dF]
Arle: It does not require normative changes
16:58:38 [dF]
.. just explanatory
16:58:57 [fsasaki]
topic: AOB
16:59:05 [dF]
fsasaki: discussion to continue on the list
16:59:06 [fsasaki]
topic: EU PROJECT SPECIFIC
16:59:11 [dF]
.. AOB?
16:59:17 [Pedro]
Felix, can you on the micro
16:59:29 [dF]
The mlw-lt call adjourned
16:59:50 [dF]
The following is only for the LT-Web partners, re end of year report
17:00:40 [fsasaki]
nieves.sande@dfki.de arle, felix
17:00:51 [dF]
fsasaki: send everything to the memberlist
17:01:06 [fsasaki]
.. and put above three people into CC
17:01:16 [dF]
.. Nieves, Arle, and Felix on CC, and they will parse it
17:01:29 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'draft minuutes', fsasaki. Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:01:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/26-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
17:01:44 [daveL]
https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Presentations_archive
17:01:53 [dF]
not only outreach material, but also slides
17:01:55 [chriLi]
We mentioned www.multilingualweb.eu in tcWorld 2012 http://conferences.tekom.de/fileadmin/tx_doccon/slides/115_Highlights_Holes_in_and_Hopes_for_the_Multilingual_Web_.pdf
17:02:13 [fsasaki]
yes, chriLi
17:02:38 [dF]
Pedro: New section?
17:03:01 [dF]
fsasaki: Arle is going to preopare an HTML webpage
17:03:21 [dF]
Pedro: need more homogeneity
17:03:51 [dF]
.. we should get a template, so that the content is easily parsed
17:03:51 [fsasaki]
action: arle to create template for report
17:03:52 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-324 - Create template for report [on Arle Lommel - due 2012-12-03].
17:04:23 [dF]
Arle: It will be OK if you stick to basic HTML, we can style it with CSS
17:04:47 [dF]
fsasaki: It is good to include stuff by not funded parties
17:05:20 [dF]
Pedro: timeframe for LC? Will it be public?
17:05:47 [fsasaki]
http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-its20-20121206/
17:05:51 [dF]
fsasaki: the time frame of the LC is early next week, I can give you the URI now
17:06:10 [DomJones1]
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17:06:13 [dF]
fsasaki: AOB?
17:06:17 [dF]
.. adjourned
17:06:28 [fsasaki]
present+ milan
17:06:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/26-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
17:06:44 [Jirka]
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