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15:11:25 <nvdbleek> rrsagent, make log public
15:12:10 <nvdbleek> nvdbleek: I think we should supported quoted values in csv (see http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4180 for csv format)
16:05:40 <Steven> trackbot, start telcon
16:05:42 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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16:05:44 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be IA_XForms
16:05:44 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see IA_XForms()11:00AM scheduled to start 5 minutes ago
16:05:45 <trackbot> Meeting: Forms Working Group Teleconference
16:05:45 <trackbot> Date: 21 November 2012
16:06:05 <Steven> Chair: Steven
16:06:13 <Steven> Regrets: Philip
16:06:24 <Steven> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2012Nov/0019.html
16:06:32 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2012Nov/0019
16:32:49 <Zakim> IA_XForms()11:00AM has now started
16:32:56 <Zakim> + +1.650.919.aaaa
16:33:22 <Zakim> +??P25
16:33:37 <Steven> zakim, I am ??P25
16:33:37 <Zakim> +Steven; got it
16:33:48 <Steven> zakim, Steven also has Nick
16:33:48 <Zakim> +Nick; got it
16:34:09 <Steven> zakim, aaaa is Erik
16:34:09 <Zakim> +Erik; got it
16:34:55 <Zakim> -Erik
16:43:00 <Zakim> +Erik
16:46:17 <Steven> Topic: References
16:46:19 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2012Nov/0020.html
16:46:34 <Steven> Steven: Do we want to update to the newest namespaces spec?
16:46:42 <Steven> Nick: I see no problem in that
16:47:47 <Steven> Steven: But I think we deliberately reference XML 4th ed, because of the problem of the new name characters in 5th ed.
16:48:44 <Steven> Erik: I don't know for sure which parser we use, it's Xerxes, not very old, may be 5th ed, we need to check.
16:49:07 <Steven> Steven: If we require 5th ed, then we need implementations that support it.
16:49:32 <Steven> Nick: Xerxes C++, only supports 1.0 3rd.
16:49:54 <Steven> Erik: And browsers? DOes it use the browser's parser?
16:49:57 <Steven> Steven: Yes
16:50:16 <Steven> s/And browsers/An XSLTForms/
16:50:20 <Steven> s/DO/Do
16:50:39 <Steven> Nick: Xerxes Java uses XML 1.0 4th ed.
16:51:58 <Steven> ... but the newest XML 1.1
16:52:44 <Steven> Erik: Safer to leave it as it is for now.
16:53:02 <Steven> Topic: JSON and CSV
16:53:02 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_2.0#External_JSON_values
16:53:36 <Steven> Steven: I've updated these parts, and people need to take a look. In particular there is now treatment of anonymous arrays.
16:55:22 <Steven> Nick: I think we should write a blog post about the rationale for this approach, rather than the XSLT 3.0 mapping
16:55:35 <Steven> ... which may give us some more input.
16:55:44 <Steven> ... I think what we now specify is quite OK.
16:55:56 <Steven> Steven: I think now it covers all cases.
16:56:35 <Steven> Nick: And allows as-easy-as-possible editing of the JSON before resubmitting it/serialising it.
16:56:51 <Steven> Topic: Embedded subforms
16:56:51 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2012Nov/0011.html
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16:57:10 <Steven> Steven: TOugh one, but maybe we should bite the bullet.
16:57:15 <Steven> s/TO/To/
16:57:19 <Zakim> +Erik.a
16:57:24 <Zakim> -Erik
16:58:30 <Steven> Steven: I get the feeling we think we should leave this out of XForms 2.0 until it is more mature
16:58:40 <Steven> Nick: THat's my opinion
16:58:46 <Steven> sTH/Th/
16:58:51 <Steven> s/TH/Th/
17:01:11 <Steven> Nick: It's not fully baked yet.
17:01:33 <Steven> Steven: I tend to agree; there are problems we don't really have a good solution for yet.
17:02:01 <Steven> Nikc: Each implementation has problems, and are not ideal.
17:02:08 <Steven> s/kc/ck/
17:02:37 <Steven> Steven: Well, I think if we have no consensus, we need to leave it out for the time being.
17:03:08 <Steven> ... We can still work on it.
17:03:48 <Steven> Nick: The limitations in HTML make it difficult; maybe the future shadow DOM will make it easier
17:04:34 <Steven> Topic: Stable execution scope for xpath functions
17:04:34 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2012Nov/0016.html
17:05:07 <Steven> http://homepages.cwi.nl/~steven/forms/xpath-stable-scope-test.xml
17:06:18 <Steven> Nick: This is a problem with 'stable' functions ('pure' in functional programming)
17:06:29 <Steven> ... when they get reevaluated
17:06:53 <Steven> ... and this is not interoperable, now() being a good example
17:07:32 <Steven> ... We need to decide when the functions get reevaluated
17:07:37 <Steven> ... in the UI on refresh
17:08:10 <Steven> ... in actions on the outermost action handler
17:08:28 <Steven> ... binds are unclear
17:09:22 <Steven> Steven: binds get reevaluated depending on their dependencies
17:11:00 <Steven> ... and we plan to loosen that definition as well
17:11:23 <Steven> ... so that may mean it is by definition non-interoperable
17:13:00 <Steven> Erik: In XForms we have many functions that ,ay not be 'stable'.
17:13:11 <Steven> Nick: It;'s not as bad as all that.
17:13:15 <Steven> s/;//
17:14:35 <Steven> Nick: but we need to speciufy the minimal case that such a function gets reevaluated.
17:14:46 <Steven> s/iufy/ify/
17:15:14 <Steven> Erik: I have no strong feelings.
17:16:25 <Steven> Stevenh: Can't we be loose, and say "it gets evaluated when it gets evaluated, and that depends  on many other things, such as the other values that change around it"
17:16:31 <Steven> s/nh:/n:/
17:16:45 <Steven> s/,ay/may/
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17:17:46 <Steven> Erik: if you write now()=something or now()=something-else, then ypu'd like to know how it gets interpreted
17:17:56 <Steven> s/yp/ypo/
17:18:03 <Steven> s/ypo/yo/
17:18:08 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
17:18:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/21-forms-minutes.html Steven
17:19:38 <Steven> Erik: Maybe it's just  a question of the definition for one XPath expression.
17:20:17 <Steven> Steven: I'm not sure; an implementation might optimise the whole dependency tree.
17:22:05 <Steven> Nick: XPath says that dates and times are stable.
17:22:17 <Steven> Steven: Woh. That surprises me
17:22:35 <nvdbleek> http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath20/#id-xp-evaluation-context-components
17:23:48 <Steven> Nick: I have to say something in the spec, since I took the text from XPath
17:24:10 <Steven> Erik: We could say that those things should be stable
17:25:15 <nvdbleek> http://www.w3.org/TR/xslt20/#xpath-dynamic-context
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17:26:51 <Steven> Steven: We need to sday something, we can't require an implementation to optimise; shouldn;t we just say "don't expect cases like this to give identical results".
17:26:58 <Steven> s/n;t/n't/
17:27:17 <Steven> s/sday/say/
17:30:20 <Steven> Steven: DO you know what to do?
17:30:32 <Steven> s/?/Nick?/
17:30:41 <Steven> Erik: We need to keep this open
17:30:50 <Steven> s/DO/Do
17:31:35 <Steven> Nick: I'll keep it open, and add a note asking for implementation feedback
17:31:53 <Steven> Topic: AOB
17:32:07 <Steven> Nick: Please look at the format token emails and give feedback.
17:32:19 <Steven> ... I want to finish tomorrow if poss.
17:32:33 <Steven> ... Publish a version of the spec without ed notes.
17:32:59 <Steven> [ADJOURN]
17:33:00 <Zakim> -Erik.a
17:33:05 <Zakim> -Steven
17:33:06 <Zakim> IA_XForms()11:00AM has ended
17:33:06 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.650.919.aaaa, Steven, Nick, Erik
17:33:17 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
17:33:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/21-forms-minutes.html Steven
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