16:46:34 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #audio
16:46:34 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/11/21-audio-irc
16:46:41 <olivier> rrsagent, make logs public
16:46:46 <olivier> zakim, this will be audio
16:46:46 <Zakim> ok, olivier; I see RWC_Audio()12:00PM scheduled to start in 14 minutes
16:49:20 <olivier> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-audio/2012OctDec/0422.html
16:49:38 <olivier> Regrets: Thierry, CWilso, Philip, Marcus
16:49:42 <olivier> Chair: olivier
16:49:47 <olivier> Scribe: Matt
16:49:58 <olivier> ScribeNick: mdjp
16:50:14 <olivier> Agenda+ Testing
16:50:32 <olivier> Agenda+ Face-to-face meeting
16:50:43 <olivier> Agenda+ Audio WG Document Milestones
16:53:20 <Zakim> RWC_Audio()12:00PM has now started
16:53:26 <Zakim> +??P28
16:53:36 <Zakim> -??P28
16:53:37 <Zakim> RWC_Audio()12:00PM has ended
16:53:37 <Zakim> Attendees were
16:55:07 <jussi> jussi has joined #audio
16:57:30 <olivier> zakim, agenda?
16:57:30 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
16:57:30 <Zakim> 1. Testing [from olivier]
16:57:30 <Zakim> 2. Face-to-face meeting [from olivier]
16:57:30 <Zakim> 3. Audio WG Document Milestones [from olivier]
16:57:57 <Zakim> RWC_Audio()12:00PM has now started
16:58:04 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:58:12 <olivier> zakim, code?
16:58:12 <Zakim> the conference code is 28346 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), olivier
16:58:20 <chrislowis> Zakim: +[IPcaller] is me
16:58:29 <rtoyg> rtoyg has joined #audio
16:58:41 <chrislowis> Zakim, +[IPcaller] is me
16:58:41 <Zakim> sorry, chrislowis, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller]'
16:58:50 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #audio
16:58:52 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
16:59:03 <olivier> zakim, IPcaller.a is me
16:59:03 <Zakim> +olivier; got it
16:59:22 <chrislowis> Zakim, IPcaller is me
16:59:22 <Zakim> +chrislowis; got it
16:59:28 <Zakim> +??P29
16:59:45 <olivier> zakim, ??P29 is Matt
16:59:45 <Zakim> +Matt; got it
17:00:13 <Zakim> +ChrisL.a
17:00:43 <chris> chris has joined #audio
17:00:51 <chrislowis> :D
17:01:26 <olivier> Zakim, ChrisL.a is ChrisLilley
17:01:26 <Zakim> +ChrisLilley; got it
17:01:32 <olivier> zakim, ChrisL is chrislowis
17:01:32 <Zakim> sorry, olivier, I do not recognize a party named 'ChrisL'
17:01:40 <Zakim> + +1.510.334.aaaa
17:01:53 <olivier> zakim, aaaa is CRogers
17:01:53 <Zakim> +CRogers; got it
17:02:07 <Zakim> +??P32
17:02:09 <ChrisLilley> rrsagent, here
17:02:09 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2012/11/21-audio-irc#T17-02-09
17:02:19 <olivier> zakim, ??P32 is Jussi
17:02:19 <Zakim> +Jussi; got it
17:02:25 <chrislowis> olivier: I've connected telephone with irc already :)
17:02:38 <olivier> good :)
17:02:55 <olivier> zakim, take up agendum 1
17:02:55 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Testing" taken up [from olivier]
17:03:35 <olivier> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-audio/2012AprJun/thread.html#msg739
17:03:41 <ChrisLilley> q+ to discuss link between testable assertions in spec and testability
17:04:37 <mdjp> olivier: discussion on testing - approaches to be taken - how will we manage test approach, (manual or automated) and submission
17:04:59 <olivier> http://w3c-test.org/
17:05:36 <ChrisLilley> q+ to discuss link between testable assertions in spec and testability and also to discuss experience using w3c-test.w3.org
17:05:41 <olivier> http://w3c-test.org/ttml/ttml11/testsuite/web-framework/START.html
17:05:41 <chris> WebKit Web Audio tests: http://svn.webkit.org/repository/webkit/trunk/LayoutTests/webaudio/
17:06:02 <mdjp> olivier: w3c maintain a test site http://w3c-test.org/ contains interesting example (ttml)
17:06:11 <olivier> ack ChrisLilley
17:06:11 <Zakim> ChrisLilley, you wanted to discuss link between testable assertions in spec and testability and to discuss link between testable assertions in spec and testability and also to
17:06:15 <Zakim> ... discuss experience using w3c-test.w3.org
17:06:40 <olivier> (WOFF Test suite. link?)
17:06:45 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
17:07:43 <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
17:07:44 <mdjp> ChrisLilley - recommends use of WODD test suite been used in a previous group.  Link betwen how spec is written and tests - easier to check what a test is testing if phrasing is directly testable, testing should not be left too late
17:07:53 <olivier> s/WODD/WOFF/
17:08:19 <olivier> zakim, Mozilla is Ehsan
17:08:19 <Zakim> +Ehsan; got it
17:09:29 <ehsan> ehsan has joined #audio
17:09:36 <mdjp> chris - peter lynn working on shepard, testing tool used by css team - not fully integrated with w3c instance
17:09:38 <olivier> (Peter Linss is working on Shepherd)
17:09:40 <ChrisLilley> http://www.w3c-test.org/framework/app/suite/woff-ua/results for user agents
17:09:47 <ChrisLilley> Peter Linss
17:10:33 <ChrisLilley> http://www.w3c-test.org/framework/app/suite/woff-at/run test harness
17:11:21 <mdjp> chris let tests drive the spec. If feel there are gaps and wording is not right we can change the spec over however 75 test written in webkit so far
17:11:36 <automata> automata has joined #audio
17:11:47 <mdjp> chris recommend we look at tests written so far which run evey day
17:12:30 <mdjp> chrislowis: do webkit test depend onan implementation?
17:12:35 <mdjp> olivier thanks
17:12:40 <ChrisLilley> link to existing webkit tests?
17:12:43 <Zakim> -chrislowis
17:12:59 <olivier> WebKit Web Audio tests: http://svn.webkit.org/repository/webkit/trunk/LayoutTests/webaudio/
17:13:03 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:13:21 <chrislowis> Zakim: IPcaller is me
17:13:31 <chrislowis> Zakim, IPcaller is me
17:13:31 <Zakim> +chrislowis; got it
17:14:05 <mdjp> chris: result of tests produces a wavefile and compares with reference.  Example spatialization - compare panned file against reference file
17:14:35 <mdjp> olivier: we should do this manually as wave file depends on the platform - can't be fully automated?
17:15:23 <ChrisLilley> s/recommends use of WOFF test suite been used in a previous group/recommends use of W3C test harness, been used in Fonts WG for WOFF/
17:16:02 <mdjp> chris: webkit automated but different on other browsers, quite painful to manage baselines for other platforms.
17:16:32 <mdjp> olivier: testing performance vs regression etc?
17:18:22 <mdjp> ChrisLilley: svg heading towards quick testing to check a number of conditions aiming at automation, preferable for anything that can be automated to be automated
17:19:00 <mdjp> olivier: We will have to have a mix of manual and automated testing
17:19:06 <mdjp> first….
17:20:21 <mdjp> olivier: ??? has time to take care of coordinating the test submission - agrees with chris tests will drive how we change the specs, not just a translation.
17:20:55 <olivier> s/???/Thierry/
17:21:02 <mdjp> olivier: next step look at which of the webkit tests could be submitted as a first step
17:21:11 <ChrisLilley> zakim, who is here?
17:21:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see olivier, Matt, ChrisLilley, CRogers, Jussi, Doug_Schepers, Ehsan, chrislowis
17:21:13 <Zakim> On IRC I see automata, ehsan, chris, ChrisLilley, rtoyg, jussi, RRSAgent, Zakim, chrislowis, colinbdclark, tmichel, olivier, trackbot, shepazu, heathjs, paul___irish, mdjp
17:21:19 <mdjp> chris: seems like a good first step
17:21:40 <mdjp> Ehsan: all current tests written for Mozilla can be submitted to the test kit
17:22:16 <chrislowis> I'm happy to help with this testing effort too.
17:22:48 <olivier> zakim, close this agendum
17:22:48 <Zakim> agendum 1 closed
17:22:49 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:22:49 <Zakim> 2. Face-to-face meeting [from olivier]
17:22:54 <olivier> zakim, take up agendum 2
17:22:54 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Face-to-face meeting" taken up [from olivier]
17:22:57 <ChrisLilley> happy to help with web midi testing
17:23:33 <mdjp> olivier: havent talked about midi testing - need to think about this also
17:24:20 <ChrisLilley> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/46884/f2f-2013-1/
17:24:41 <shepazu> agenda+ state of Mozilla implementation
17:24:43 <jussi> ChrisLilley: :) let's talk more about that on the list
17:25:08 <ChrisLilley> jussi - yes, sure
17:25:10 <ChrisLilley> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/46884/f2f-2013-1/results
17:25:17 <mdjp> olivier: f2f meeting couldn't meet at TPAC due to various reasons, poll in the w3c site to collect dates and locations for next f2f.  Please answer if you have not done so already
17:26:21 <mdjp> olivier: preferred time at the moment is late or early March, location mixed preference for location (US)
17:26:24 <chrislowis> Let's have it at SXSW :)
17:26:43 <shepazu> March 8-12 SXSW
17:26:46 <ChrisLilley> http://sxsw.com/ 8-17 March
17:28:16 <olivier> zakim, take up agendum 3
17:28:16 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Audio WG Document Milestones" taken up [from olivier]
17:29:24 <olivier> http://www.w3.org/2011/audio/wiki/W3C_Audio_Publications_and_Milestones
17:30:03 <joe> joe has joined #audio
17:30:14 <Zakim> + +1.978.314.aabb
17:30:27 <olivier> zakim, aabb is Joe
17:30:27 <Zakim> +Joe; got it
17:31:02 <chrislowis> Joe: this page: http://www.w3.org/2011/audio/wiki/W3C_Audio_Publications_and_Milestones
17:31:13 <mdjp> olivier: milestones from recharter available on wiki - milestones may be ambitious, require test suite to be ready very soon. Added updated estimates for api
17:31:30 <joe> chrislowis: thx
17:33:02 <mdjp> olivier: need a clear an honest view about our progres at any time. Some groups don't include any milestones, we have tried to estimate, need to talk about current estimases from audio and midi api
17:33:47 <mdjp> olivier: could reach last call march 2013 - means we have solved all main issues internally and push for public to review
17:34:17 <mdjp> olivier: is this still reasonable?
17:34:32 <mdjp> jussi: still realistic but needs discussion
17:36:21 <mdjp> chris: Don't know - fast progress on adressing issues but many less significant issues. More issues will arise, 1st Q 2013 still a posibillity but may be ambitious
17:36:49 <mdjp> jussi: Number of issues from Mozilla will increase
17:37:16 <mdjp> olivier: leave at Q1 2013 and reassess
17:38:17 <mdjp> chris: we should publish a working draft, discussing using web IDL enums.
17:38:41 <mdjp> olivier: due for working draft soon, last was in August.
17:39:45 <ChrisLilley> q+ to mention that linking met milestones to the actual specs would be helpful
17:39:55 <olivier> ack c
17:39:55 <Zakim> ChrisLilley, you wanted to mention that linking met milestones to the actual specs would be helpful
17:40:33 <mdjp> ChrisLilley: helpful for people who want to look at milestones if they show visibly progress (style completed differently)
17:40:38 <olivier> ACTION: olivier to update milestones tables with links to FPWD
17:40:38 <trackbot> Created ACTION-52 - Update milestones tables with links to FPWD [on Olivier Thereaux - due 2012-11-28].
17:41:27 <mdjp> shepazu: public depending on this spec, may not be tracking the day to day work of the group but still invested in the work.
17:41:39 <olivier> zakim, take up next agendum
17:41:39 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Face-to-face meeting" taken up [from olivier]
17:41:45 <olivier> zakim, take up agendum 4
17:41:45 <Zakim> agendum 4. "state of Mozilla implementation" taken up [from shepazu]
17:42:42 <mdjp> shepazu: how do you feel about the spec so far, how long will it take to get to a state when people can start to test
17:43:40 <Zakim> -chrislowis
17:43:57 <mdjp> ehsan: expect to output audio within the next couple of weeks - the spec in its current form is not really well suited to be implemented by people without specific knowledge of audio processing
17:44:18 <ChrisLilley> q+ to ask if there is reference material (like graphics gems) to link to for algorithmic details
17:46:01 <mdjp> ehsan: doesn't really cover edge cases eg no mention of invalid property values, types of exception not specified. Treating webkit as defacto, not ideal.
17:46:41 <mdjp> chris: good assesment, how many months will it take Moz to get to the point where people can start "playing" with it
17:46:55 <olivier> s/chris/doug/
17:48:32 <mdjp> ehsan: nightly channel by end 2012, working on a list of 7-10 nodes, putting off the code audio data api, expect to be finished this week and will be first part of the api available. Estimate that end of 2012 still reasonable.
17:49:09 <mdjp> ehsan: audio api will be hidden behind a preference - no concrete plans on when this will be enabled by default
17:49:16 <olivier> ack c
17:49:16 <Zakim> ChrisLilley, you wanted to ask if there is reference material (like graphics gems) to link to for algorithmic details
17:50:21 <ChrisLilley> https://wiki.mozilla.org/RapidRelease/Calendar release date FF20 2012-Nov-20
17:50:24 <ChrisLilley> q?
17:50:31 <olivier> q+ ChrisLilley
17:51:07 <mdjp> chris: thanks - understand how parts of implementation could be difficult.  Would like to continue getting feedback. Can add more details where relevant.
17:51:53 <olivier> q+ to plusone what Ehsan said - ideally should be able to implement without needing to look at ref impl
17:51:57 <mdjp> ehsan: spec should reference literature on digital audio,
17:52:53 <olivier> ack ch
17:53:53 <mdjp> ChrisLilley: svg had similar issues with expert knowledge during implementation. Its helpful to reference literature.
17:54:42 <Zakim> -ChrisLilley
17:55:23 <Zakim> +ChrisLilley
17:56:20 <ChrisLilley> separate glossary with links sounds like a good idea
17:56:35 <mdjp> olivier: for definitions, reference literature - think about having seperate glossary of terms if required. Would i make more sense to have a glossary or links to reference material
17:59:06 <olivier> [discussion on level of detail in algorithms. CLilley says it doesn't have to be a foolproof guide, but make it reasonably doable for an apt programmer]
18:00:48 <olivier> Topic: AOB
18:01:01 <mdjp> chris: Is Moz interested in the web midi api and implementing it
18:01:27 <mdjp> ehsan: no one currently woking on it and not sure if they would be interested
18:02:26 <Zakim> -ChrisLilley
18:02:27 <Zakim> -Jussi
18:02:28 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
18:02:29 <Zakim> -olivier
18:02:31 <Zakim> -Ehsan
18:02:31 <Zakim> -Matt
18:02:31 <Zakim> -Joe
18:02:33 <Zakim> -CRogers
18:02:34 <Zakim> RWC_Audio()12:00PM has ended
18:02:34 <Zakim> Attendees were olivier, chrislowis, Matt, ChrisL, ChrisLilley, +1.510.334.aaaa, CRogers, Jussi, Doug_Schepers, Ehsan, +1.978.314.aabb, Joe
18:02:40 <olivier> Next Meeting: 5th December, same time
18:02:49 <olivier> rrsagent, make minutes
18:02:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/21-audio-minutes.html olivier
18:02:57 <olivier> zakim, bye
18:02:57 <Zakim> Zakim has left #audio
18:03:04 <olivier> rrsagent, bye
18:03:04 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/21-audio-actions.rdf :
18:03:04 <RRSAgent> ACTION: olivier to update milestones tables with links to FPWD [1]
18:03:04 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/21-audio-irc#T17-40-38