15:02:48 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webid
15:02:48 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/11/09-webid-irc
15:02:55 <sandro> rrsagent, make logs public
15:02:57 <deiu> RRSAgent, deiu is scribe
15:02:57 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'deiu is scribe', deiu.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:03:06 <jonathandray> present+ Jonathan_Dray
15:03:12 <kidehen> kidehen has joined #webid
15:03:19 <domel> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
15:03:19 <Zakim> +domel; got it
15:03:25 <bobP> scribenick deiu
15:03:40 <deiu> thanks bobP
15:05:09 <sandro> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:05:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/09-webid-minutes.html sandro
15:05:15 <bblfish> +present
15:05:26 <deiu> present+ Andrei Sambra
15:05:34 <kidehen> present +kidehen
15:05:34 <deiu> present+ deiu
15:05:38 <sandro> present+ Sandro_Hawke
15:05:38 <Zakim> -bblfish
15:05:45 <kidehen> present+ kidehen
15:05:49 <Zakim> +scor
15:05:57 <sandro> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:05:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/09-webid-minutes.html sandro
15:06:14 <sandro> Meeting: WebID Community Group
15:06:22 <sandro> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webid/2012Nov/0023.html
15:06:22 <kidehen> present+ Kingsley Idehen
15:06:30 <sandro> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:06:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/09-webid-minutes.html sandro
15:06:37 <sandro> bblfish, are you calling back?
15:06:47 <bergi> present+ bergi
15:06:50 <turnguard> turnguard has joined #webid
15:06:50 <sandro> chair: Henry_Story
15:07:09 <deiu> I will scribe
15:07:28 <deiu> What's the syntax?
15:07:36 <deiu> scribe: deiu
15:07:38 <sandro> scribe: Mr. Deiu
15:07:53 <sandro> yep.    I was just suggesting full names for that.
15:07:57 <domel> present+ domel
15:08:05 <bblfish_> bblfish_ has joined #webid
15:08:16 <turnguard> hi everybody, i'll be following in passive mode... gotta take care of kid...
15:08:17 <bobP> present+ bobP
15:08:17 <sandro> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:08:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/09-webid-minutes.html sandro
15:08:23 <deiu> scribe: Andrei Sambra
15:08:39 <Zakim> +bblfish
15:08:51 <sandro> s/scribe: Mr. Deiu//
15:09:04 <sandro> s/scribe: deiu//
15:09:13 <bblfish_> Topic: Overview of what happened at TPAC
15:09:38 <bblfish_> zakim, who is making noise?
15:09:49 <Zakim> bblfish_, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: bblfish (51%), Sandro (9%), Kingsley_Idehen (15%)
15:09:59 <sandro> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:09:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/09-webid-minutes.html sandro
15:10:14 <deiu> bblfish: we had a good week, all around
15:10:17 <bblfish> http://www.w3.org/community/rww/wiki/TPAC-Lyon-2012
15:10:44 <deiu> ... Monday was for introduction / IRC / getting people to create WebIDs
15:11:13 <deiu> ... there is a group.n3 file with the participants from TPAC
15:11:21 <bblfish> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/webid/tpac/group.n3
15:11:43 <deiu> ... we had 25 people, if you are missing, please let bblfish know
15:11:48 <melvster> melvster has joined #webid
15:11:56 <deiu> ... TimBL was there for both days
15:12:02 <scor> scor has joined #webid
15:12:20 <bblfish> q?
15:12:30 <deiu> ... people should use the queue when asking questions
15:12:48 <deiu> ... typing q+ will add you / q- will remove you from queue
15:13:22 <deiu> ... we had redefined WebID
15:13:26 <bobP> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webid/2012Oct/0265.html
15:13:43 <deiu> ... there was a picture drawn by TimBL about WebID integration
15:13:58 <deiu> ... left side has authentication systems / right has RWW
15:14:24 <deiu> ... we separated Identity from Authentication and Authorization
15:14:57 <deiu> ... had some good meetings on Wednesday
15:15:16 <scor> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:15:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see Bob_Powers, Sandro, ??P18, ??P21, domel, deiu (muted), Kingsley_Idehen, scor, bblfish
15:15:17 <deiu> ... 50 people interested in talking about identity
15:15:53 <deiu> ... most people were in agreement
15:16:03 <deiu> ... Thu and Fri was LDP f2f
15:16:08 <bblfish> q?
15:16:13 <deiu> ... good to see how professional chairs handle things
15:16:22 <scor> q+
15:16:42 <bblfish> ack scor
15:16:57 <Zakim> -scor
15:16:59 <deiu> scor: was there anyone from Google / Mozilla - browser vendors?
15:17:16 <Zakim> +scor
15:17:20 <deiu> bblfish: the identity meeting had a lot of people
15:18:03 <bobP> zakim, who is making noise
15:18:03 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is making noise', bobP
15:18:09 <bobP> zakim, who is making noise?
15:18:13 <deiu> ... no one really remembers if any browser vendors people were there
15:18:21 <Zakim> bobP, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: scor (33%), bblfish (58%), Kingsley_Idehen (22%)
15:18:24 <MacTed> MacTed has joined #webid
15:18:33 <bblfish> q?
15:19:03 <bblfish> Topic: LPD Access Control
15:19:10 <deiu> ... we can now look at LDP and access control
15:19:35 <deiu> ... LDP chair agrees that AC is essential at this point
15:19:59 <deiu> ... but he is worried about sidetracking work from main LDP direction
15:20:08 <bblfish> q?
15:20:12 <sandro> q+
15:20:32 <deiu> sandro: it's not really up to the chair
15:21:08 <deiu> bblfish: LDP chair is a but jumpy when someone mentions authentication
15:21:17 <scor> scor has joined #webid
15:21:24 <sandro> sandro: The chair is reasonably trying to stop people from trying to solve the problem -- that's out of scope for the group.
15:21:25 <bblfish> http://www.w3.org/wiki/WebAccessControl
15:21:55 <deiu> bblfish: we can have a session every two weeks to talk about WebACL
15:22:05 <bblfish> Proposal: we have some regular meetings here on this http://www.w3.org/wiki/WebAccessControl
15:22:52 <bblfish> any ideas on this?
15:22:54 <deiu> deiu: I think WebACL is more important for LDP than it is for WebID
15:23:09 <bblfish> +1
15:23:13 <bergi> +1
15:23:20 <sandro> +0 sounds reasonable to me; doubt I can help
15:23:21 <domel> +1
15:23:24 <jonathandray> +1
15:23:31 <kidehen> +1
15:23:33 <scor> -0
15:23:36 <deiu> +0 I think it's out of scope for WebID
15:23:57 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
15:24:03 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:24:03 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
15:24:04 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:24:04 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:24:07 <kidehen> this is RWW-0, I hope
15:24:10 <deiu> bblfish: this can be part of the RWW
15:24:18 <deiu> I agree with that
15:24:24 <bblfish> so we want to share this space with RWW people
15:24:26 <bblfish> and topics
15:24:37 <kidehen> that's my assumption, at this point
15:24:40 <scor> +1
15:25:01 <deiu> kidehen, I agree with RWW-0
15:26:14 <bblfish> Topic: Is this a good time for regular meetings?
15:26:34 <scor> +1
15:26:48 <bergi> +1
15:26:51 <bblfish> +1
15:26:58 <domel> +1
15:27:00 <bobP> +1
15:27:03 <turnguard> +0
15:27:05 <deiu> Today's time: 16:00 CET / 10:00 EST
15:27:17 <deiu> +1
15:27:21 <jonathandray> +1
15:28:21 <deiu> RESOLUTION: We have some regular meetings here on this http://www.w3.org/wiki/WebAccessControl / Friday at 16:00 CET / 10:00 EST
15:29:08 <bblfish> Topic: The WebID definition
15:29:24 <bblfish> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webid/2012Oct/0265.html
15:29:37 <deiu> bblfish: we need to look at the picture again
15:29:44 <deiu> ... we don't have a good process yet
15:30:19 <deiu> ... we should try to push for changing from a CG to a WG
15:31:00 <deiu> ... there was some disagreement on the mailing list about the definition of WebID
15:31:16 <bblfish> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webid/2012Nov/0020.html
15:31:19 <deiu> ... we need to reach a consensus
15:31:49 <deiu> ... TimBL argued about using turtle and # URLs
15:31:49 <bblfish> q?
15:31:59 <sandro> q-
15:32:31 <bblfish> Proposal: A WebID is "A URL that denotes an Agent - Person, Software or Organisation."
15:32:34 <kidehen> +1
15:32:37 <bblfish> +1
15:32:38 <deiu> ... A WebID is "A URL that denotes an Agent - Person, Software or Organisation."
15:32:38 <turnguard> +1
15:32:39 <bergi> +1
15:32:45 <deiu> +1
15:32:55 <sandro> -0 but I wasn't in this conversation, coming late
15:32:56 <domel> +1
15:32:59 <scor> scor has joined #webid
15:33:36 <turnguard> @kingsley : maybe you could also explain to others what is meant by "denote" and why it is used
15:33:53 <kidehen> lets finish
15:34:08 <deiu> sandro:  I have two issues
15:34:23 <deiu> ... first is about branding WebID: similar to OpenID, etc.
15:35:02 <deiu> ... second is having URLs that denote webpages is a "can of worms" http-range-14 issues
15:35:04 <kidehen> sandro: doesn't URI work ?
15:35:27 <kidehen> henry: ideally, yes.
15:35:31 <deiu> bblfish: is there a way to word it in the spec so that we differentiate URL from URI?
15:35:37 <MacTed> sandro - that's where "WebID" has been erroneously used as shorthand for the "WebID Protocol" ... which has been distinct from "WebID" (a URL/URI/IRI denoting...)
15:35:43 <scor> Antoine had suggested to using IRIs instead in the spec
15:36:06 <kidehen> henry and sandro: we can negate the can of worms. We just need to agree about the least controversial i.e., de-referencable URI or URL
15:36:23 <bblfish> q?
15:36:41 <deiu> RESOLVED: A WebID is "A URL that denotes an Agent - Person, Software or Organisation."
15:37:03 <deiu> ... we should add conditions
15:37:04 <bblfish> "The WebID when dereferenced MUST return a document/representation that describes the URL referent uniquely."
15:37:43 <deiu> ... a WebID that doesn't provide info about the thing it describes is not very useful
15:38:04 <kidehen> henry: are these conditions or attributes?
15:38:25 <deiu> ... we should be open when defining conditions
15:38:35 <kidehen> bblfish: are these conditions or attributes, thus far you've outlined two attributes of a WebID
15:39:14 <deiu> ... there is a third condition: the user has to have control over the WebID
15:39:33 <deiu> ... otherwise it's just a URL on the Web
15:40:22 <sandro> +0 I'm getting more comfortable with this.
15:40:36 <kidehen> :1
15:40:41 <kidehen> +1
15:40:54 <bblfish> Proposal: second part of WebID definition: ""The WebID when dereferenced MUST return a document/representation that describes the URL referent uniquely."
15:41:00 <bblfish> +1
15:41:06 <bergi> +1
15:41:10 <deiu> +0 it's too ambiguous: "describes the URL ref uniquely" can mean anything in terms of representation
15:41:46 <sandro> +1 (assuming it's okay to have redirects, of course)
15:41:58 <bblfish> so something related to inverse functiona properties, owl2. keys
15:41:59 <MacTed> I would suggest s/the URL referent uniquely/the URL referent/
15:42:01 <turnguard> +0 document/representation is something one can argue about
15:42:02 <deiu> deiu: there is no mention of linked data (which is the basis for WebID)
15:42:08 <jonathandray> +0 what about somthing like "... MUST return Turtle; servers MAY deliver other formats using standard HTTP content negotiation;  If the client doesn't indicate a preference, Turtle MUST be returned"
15:42:27 <jonathandray> ok
15:42:55 <jonathandray> ok then +1
15:42:56 <domel> +1
15:42:59 <kidehen> +1
15:43:00 <MacTed> ... MUST support Turtle; MAY deliver other formats; SHOULD handle content negotiation...
15:43:08 <scor> +1
15:43:23 <kidehen> MacTed: how did we get to Turtle?
15:43:25 <scor> deiu: Linked Data is not a spec, can't be used normatively
15:43:54 <deiu> scor, but Turtle is
15:43:54 <MacTed> kidehen - from jonathandray's comment.
15:43:56 <melvster> jonathandray: careful of setting defaults because browser hrefs cant do this, and you may want to serve e.g. XHTML+RDFa
15:44:01 <bblfish>  Proposal: second part of WebID definition: "The WebID when dereferenced MUST return a document/representation that describes the URL referent uniquely."
15:44:04 <bblfish> +1
15:44:09 <kidehen> +1
15:44:12 <sandro> +1
15:44:18 <jonathandray> +1
15:44:19 <scor> +1
15:44:20 <MacTed> I don't understand "describes the URL referent uniquely"
15:44:23 <bergi> +1
15:44:27 <domel> +1
15:44:30 <melvster> 0 -- not pro or against, happy to go with it ...
15:44:35 <MacTed> "describes the URL referent" seems sufficient
15:44:36 <deiu> 0
15:44:37 <turnguard> +0
15:44:51 <sandro> "primarily describes the URL referent" ?
15:44:53 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
15:44:53 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
15:45:05 <kidehen> MacTed: we are getting to it. The description is a graph, the minimal set is as outlined in bblfish mail
15:45:07 <sandro> "provides identifying characteristics of the referent" ?
15:45:34 <deiu> bblfish: it should have a cert:key relation
15:45:48 <deiu> MacTed: the description must include self-reference
15:46:19 <deiu> bblfish: the WebID document should give an inverse function property that uniquely identifies the WebID
15:46:34 <sandro> bblfish: The webid document should speak about the webid, in some way which uses an owl:InverseFunctionalProperty to uniquely identify the referent
15:47:12 <kidehen> MacTed: this is about the description. This is what makes the description one that uniquely describes the subject
15:47:13 <deiu> MacTed: can I have a WebID that is for EITHER me or my son?
15:48:09 <bobP> q+
15:48:18 <MacTed> s/MacTed: can/sandro: can/
15:48:55 <deiu> MacTed: what if I don't use the WebID for authentication, but only for identity
15:48:56 <kidehen> You need > = 1 IFP relationship in the description document
15:49:02 <MacTed> dereference WebID URI, get document which describes reference *including* statements pointing to that same URI as WebID...
15:49:18 <Zakim> -domel
15:49:18 <sandro> sandro: I'm unclear what kind of RDF triples have to be there for it to really qualify.
15:49:18 <MacTed> s/reference/referent/
15:49:27 <bblfish> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webid/2012Nov/0020.html
15:49:33 <kidehen> bblfish: your email covers it, yes
15:49:44 <bobP> q-
15:50:20 <kidehen> bblfish: we can make an example. melvster is a nice test case :-)
15:50:22 <deiu> bblfish: we're moving forward with this, but it's difficult
15:50:35 <deiu> ... might want to continue the discussion on the mailing list
15:50:38 <sandro> I'm inclined toward SHOULD on this.   I don't see why this kind of fuzzy thing should be a MUST.
15:51:03 <bblfish> Topic: Web Identity Interoperability spec
15:51:04 <MacTed> dereference WebID IRI, get description document which includes statements saying that this WebID IRI identifies the entity described by the document(s) which you get by deferencing this WebID IRI...
15:51:14 <bobP> The Agent could be the union of you and your son
15:51:15 <scor> the ultimate test is whether you can use your WebID in the protocol...
15:51:29 <domel_> domel_ has joined #webid
15:51:30 <bobP> but the referent to the Agent should be unique
15:52:27 <deiu> bblfish: reuse existing protocols (BrowserID / OpenID) for WebID authentication
15:53:03 <deiu> ... focus on interoperability, starting from ACL
15:53:50 <deiu> ... use ACL on the wiki
15:54:03 <kidehen> +1 for Wiki notes showcasing reasoning based tricks etc..
15:54:03 <deiu> ... we already have a group.n3 file
15:54:10 <melvster> just a thought ... "A WebID is a URI that denotes an Agent.  The WebID *should* but an HTTP URI. that when derferenced, returns turtle describing that Agent."
15:54:40 <kidehen> melvster: we don't need Turtle in the definition. We are beyond that, I hope
15:54:56 <melvster> ok sure ...
15:55:31 <deiu> ... we need to defuse the tensions between different groups and reach consensus
15:55:39 <kidehen> bblfish: yes
15:56:05 <kidehen> bblfish: yes, we have run the gamut re. good, bad, and the ugly.
15:56:11 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:56:28 <domel> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
15:56:28 <Zakim> +domel; got it
15:56:47 <kidehen> melvster: your route to signing emails goes through one of these IFP reasoning examples :-)
15:57:07 <deiu> ... we can get people from different communities to help write a Wiki page about ACL use cases
15:57:17 <MacTed> thinking aloud - "A WebID is a URI that denotes an Agent.  When a WebID URI is dereferenced, it MUST return a description of that Agent.  The description MUST include statements which state that the WebID identifies the same Agent."
15:58:36 <bblfish> hippies
15:59:03 <kidehen> MacTed: we should put meat of <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webid/2012Nov/0020.html> into said Wiki doc
15:59:31 <kidehen> bblfish: yes. logic is the unifier
15:59:35 <deiu> bblfish: we can use semantic web reasoning to help us
15:59:43 <MacTed> kidehen - yes
16:00:07 <kidehen> k
16:00:09 <kidehen> bye all
16:00:14 <scor> montly or bi weekly meetings please
16:00:20 <scor> bye all
16:00:24 <melvster> +1 monthly
16:00:25 <melvster> bye all
16:00:31 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:00:31 <sandro> bye, thanks
16:00:35 <Zakim> -Kingsley_Idehen
16:00:47 <Zakim> -MacTed
16:00:49 <deiu> I propose we have monthly formal WebID meetings, and informal ones whenever we want
16:00:56 <melvster> +2
16:00:58 <melvster> oops
16:00:59 <melvster> +1
16:01:01 <bblfish> ok.
16:01:09 <bblfish> I think we could have monthly RWW one too
16:01:41 <jonathandray> bblfish: +1 for both
16:01:51 <melvster> -1 from me, id prefer to attend just 1 monthly
16:02:35 <melvster> (speaking personally not as chair ... others are free arrange calls as wanted)
16:02:37 <deiu> I think ACL is orthogonal to WebID
16:03:02 <deiu> as long as we emphasize on the _ID part of WebID
16:03:29 <Zakim> -scor
16:03:32 <deiu> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:03:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/09-webid-minutes.html deiu
16:04:55 <bblfish> http://my-profile.eu/
16:04:56 <deiu> my-profile.eu still has an issue with RDFa
16:04:57 <jonathandray> melvster: then 1 monthly meeting for both webid and rww ?
16:05:21 <deiu> there's an open issue ticket on the EasyRdf github page
16:05:30 <melvster> jonathandray: sounds good, if it gets mega popular, we can increase the frequency by demand
16:05:40 <melvster> and informal meeting when people want
16:06:10 <bblfish> melvster you don't need to come to the WebID monthly meetings.
16:06:30 <bblfish> you can meet deiu
16:06:37 <deiu> we should taskify someone to write an app for voting on proposals
16:06:57 <deiu> users can cast their votes and add a description for their reasoning
16:09:12 <deiu> bobP, bblfish don't forget the guys in NL want to give a WebID to 15.000 students
16:09:30 <deiu> was it 50k?
16:10:06 <deiu> bblfish, biweekly for wording the proposals (informal)
16:10:09 <MacTed> MacTed has joined #webid
16:10:19 <deiu> monthly formal for voting on proposals
16:13:03 <turnguard> ok bye
16:13:08 <melvster> 15k
16:13:15 <bblfish> q?
16:13:34 <deiu> Meeting adjourned.
16:13:35 <Zakim> -domel
16:13:37 <Zakim> -Bob_Powers
16:13:38 <Zakim> -bblfish
16:13:41 <deiu> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:13:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/09-webid-minutes.html deiu
16:13:41 <Zakim> -??P18
16:13:58 <Zakim> -deiu
16:14:02 <turnguard> turnguard has left #webid
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16:18:08 <bobP> rrsagent, make logs public
16:18:37 <webr3> webr3 has joined #webid
16:18:59 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, ??P21, in INC_WEBID(WEBID)10:00AM
16:19:00 <Zakim> INC_WEBID(WEBID)10:00AM has ended
16:19:00 <Zakim> Attendees were Bob_Powers, bblfish, Sandro, deiu, Kingsley_Idehen, domel, scor, MacTed
16:19:10 <jonathandray> jonathandray has joined #webid
16:56:13 <bblfish> bblfish has joined #webid
17:02:52 <webr3> RRSAgent, pointer?
17:02:52 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2012/11/09-webid-irc#T17-02-52
17:06:11 <sandro> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:06:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/09-webid-minutes.html sandro
17:41:32 <bblfish> thanks sandro
17:41:37 <turnguard> turnguard has joined #webid
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17:41:56 <bblfish> I wonder if I should go in there and edit it a little later
17:42:17 <bblfish> was re-reading it. There are a lot of good comments.
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