20:59:30 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg
20:59:30 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/11/08-svg-irc
20:59:32 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
20:59:32 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #svg
20:59:34 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
20:59:34 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:00PM scheduled to start in 1 minute
20:59:35 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
20:59:35 <trackbot> Date: 08 November 2012
21:00:16 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:00PM has now started
21:00:23 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
21:00:33 <TabAtkins> Oh, it's UTC, not GMT, so it doesn't care about the seasonal adjustment.  kk.
21:00:36 <ed> Zakim, [IP is me
21:00:36 <Zakim> +ed; got it
21:01:03 <Zakim> + +61.2.980.5.aaaa
21:01:12 <nikos> Zakim, +61 is me
21:01:12 <Zakim> +nikos; got it
21:01:43 <ed> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012OctDec/0020.html
21:01:56 <Tav> Tav has joined #svg
21:01:57 <Zakim> +Tab_Atkins
21:02:17 <Zakim> + +1.415.832.aabb
21:02:59 <krit> krit has joined #svg
21:03:20 <krit> zakim, who is on the phone?
21:03:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see ed, nikos, Tab_Atkins, +1.415.832.aabb
21:03:24 <Zakim> +??P7
21:03:32 <krit> zakim, aabb is me
21:03:33 <Zakim> +krit; got it
21:04:34 <Tav> zakim, +??P7 is me
21:04:34 <Zakim> sorry, Tav, I do not recognize a party named '+??P7'
21:05:39 <Tav> zakim, P7 is me
21:05:39 <Zakim> sorry, Tav, I do not recognize a party named 'P7'
21:05:43 <krit> ScribeNick krit
21:05:53 <krit> ScribeNick: krit
21:06:37 <krit> topic Ambiguities in fill:url() / stroke:url() syntax
21:07:24 <krit> TabAtkins: browsers use different code paths for getting resources if it is an image or an external resource
21:07:29 <krit> TabAtkins: this is fine currently
21:07:44 <krit> TabAtkins: mask is the first property where we may define both
21:08:05 <krit> TabAtkins: so we need to find a solution how we can differ between the two kind of code paths
21:08:23 <krit> TabAtkins: talked with roc and krit and came up with a simple rule that works in most cases
21:08:39 <krit> TabAtkins: the rule is: for most css properties a URL is always an image
21:08:53 <Zakim> +cabanier
21:09:07 <krit> TabAtkins: fill and stroke would interprete a URL with hash as resource instead of an image by default
21:09:24 <krit> TabAtkins: this would apply to the mask property as well
21:09:47 <krit> TabAtkins: if URL has an hash, it will point to an resource, otherwise image
21:10:26 <krit> TabAtkins: we would differ on property base if the default would be an image (like background) or a resource like on fill stroke
21:10:52 <krit> TabAtkins: hopefully this does not have a lot of compat problems
21:11:29 <krit> TabAtkins: it might be diffcult on mask, where things would be interprete as image currently, which would be interpreted as resource in the future
21:11:41 <krit> TabAtkins: this is a very low risv
21:11:44 <krit> risc
21:11:59 <krit> TabAtkins: to force an image load you need to take an image() function
21:12:09 <krit> ed: for opera this sounds fine
21:12:34 <krit> ed: mask would be the only property where it could cause problems
21:12:36 <krit> TabAtkins: yes
21:13:24 <TabAtkins> ScribeNick: TabAtkins
21:13:46 <TabAtkins> krit: Tab asked me if there is a technical reason why I'm opposed to this behavior for mask-image.
21:14:03 <TabAtkins> krit: The problem on webkit is that we interpret as resoruce or image solely on the property basis.
21:14:13 <TabAtkins> krit: Currently on -webkit-mask-image it's only an image.
21:14:27 <TabAtkins> krit: Changing things would mean a decent bit of refactoring, which realisticaly speaking is not happening.
21:15:53 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: So, ignoring legacy, if we introduced a brand new property that accepted both refs and images, and used this rule to distinguish, you're saying it would be a problem?
21:16:19 <TabAtkins> krit: Yes, becasue of the necessary refactoring in our CSS Parser.
21:16:51 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Okay.  If it's just a matter of lack of resources for webkit on SVG, not a problem of actual technical difficulty, I'm okay with still accepting this rule.
21:16:55 <krit> ScribeNick: krit
21:17:23 <krit> krit: not technical difficulty speaking of web point of view
21:17:33 <krit> krit: just implementation point of view on webkit
21:18:35 <krit> krit: the compat problems could be SVG fragments like view box
21:18:58 <krit> krit: these could still be used with image() in the future, but would be incompatible at the moment
21:19:26 <thorton_> thorton_ has joined #svg
21:19:30 <krit> TabAtkins: right but roc fantaai and me thought it would be easier to make the rule for parsing easier
21:19:39 <krit> TabAtkins: and introduce image() instead
21:19:50 <ed> by view box I assume you mean something like: #svgView(...)
21:20:09 <krit> TabAtkins: with image() the user can force the parser to interpret as image
21:20:13 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
21:20:30 <krit> TabAtkins: yes, that is what i mean
21:22:37 <krit> krit: I would like to delay the decision until looking into this more in webkit
21:22:50 <krit> TabAtkins: If  it is parser relaed, I can take a look as well
21:23:07 <krit> krit: it is parser and structure related
21:23:55 <krit> ed: where shold such a rule get to?
21:24:16 <krit> krit: maybe CSS images or units and values, propably the later. But also SVG
21:24:28 <krit> TabAtkins: units and values would be fine
21:24:55 <krit> krit: this is just related to CSS at the moment
21:25:30 <thorton> thorton has joined #svg
21:25:32 <krit> krit: what about attributes unrelated to CSS like xlink:href
21:25:38 <krit> TabAtkins: should not effect these
21:25:46 <krit> ed: agree, is different
21:26:28 <krit> ed: what about aching behavior
21:26:40 <krit> ed: came up on mailing list, should we consider that
21:27:06 <krit> ed: should we cache the URL once and reuse it on all the places
21:27:14 <ed> s/aching/caching/
21:27:21 <krit> krit: this is difficult if you have different properties
21:28:01 <krit> krit: background would be an image and mask would be a resource, this should affect caching
21:28:41 <krit> ed: mask property links to an elmeent in an svg and a fill to the same document but different id, you could cache the same document
21:29:33 <krit> krit: Firefox would not load a resource if it is from a different domain
21:30:43 <krit> krit: I would like to move this topic to the agenda in two weeks
21:30:46 <krit> ed: fine for me
21:30:50 <krit> topiuc Cross domain resources in resource documents
21:30:53 <krit> topic Cross domain resources in resource documents
21:30:57 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012Oct/0025.html
21:32:25 <krit> krit: Boris said that FF does not load external resources from different domains, I wonder if we specify that
21:32:43 <krit> doug: if browsers do it anyway then I am fine to follow CORS
21:33:02 <krit> ed: what about the same domain
21:33:10 <krit> krit: is there a problem for same domain
21:33:17 <krit> ed: depends
21:34:02 <krit> ed: you send an image and get a ping back, so you could get some notification from other users
21:35:41 <krit> shepazu: we should be mindful about riscs, but don't see it for ed's scenario
21:36:18 <krit> ed: Opera does download cross domain resources but does not execute scripts
21:37:25 <krit> krtlets say you load an external resource which has an onLoad event, should this onload event fire?
21:37:41 <krit> s/krtlets/krit: lets/
21:38:15 <krit> ed: for Opera all scripts are disabled on external resources.
21:38:24 <krit> krit: the same for internal resources?
21:39:00 <ed> s/ for Opera all scripts are disabled on external resources./ for Opera the onload events won't be fired in the document that has scripting disabled
21:40:24 <krit> krit: <svg><use xlink:href="doc.svg#rect"/></svg>
21:40:43 <krit> krit: <rect onload="alert();" id="rect"/>
21:40:57 <krit> krit: this does not fire on opera
21:41:05 <krit> ed:I think this is right
21:41:43 <krit> krit: could scripts lead to any security issues on external resources?
21:42:00 <krit> TabAtkins: disabling should not lead to security issues
21:42:29 <krit> ed: not sure if we had security concerns or it was easier to implement it
21:43:31 <krit> krit: first, should external resources (corss domain), be dependent on CORS headers if they are loaded or not?
21:43:31 <ed> s/it was easier to implement it/it was made our implementation simpler (we did execute scripts in external use documents before, as required by tiny 1.2)
21:43:51 <krit> krit: this is the current behavior of FF
21:44:18 <krit> krit: I think we have the same rules on WebKit like FF
21:44:32 <krit> ed: I think it makes sense to use CORS for external resources
21:46:05 <krit> krit: I think we did not implement it that way in WebKit because of security concerns initially, but because of our handling of resources in general
21:46:35 <krit> ed: and imv?
21:46:43 <krit> s/imv/img/?
21:46:48 <krit> krit: img is different
21:46:50 <ed> s/ed/shepazu/
21:47:01 <krit> krit: we don't run scripts but declarative animations on it
21:47:10 <krit> krit: img does not contribute to hit testing
21:47:56 <krit> krit: even if I am not sure if we follow SVG spec here
21:48:46 <krit> krit: if you want hit testing use iframe, object or inline SVG
21:50:01 <krit> ed: we just need to make sure that ing and image are allowed to download external cross domain resources
21:50:47 <krit> krit: I had in mind to specify it explicitly for use, mask, filter, clip-path and paint servers
21:50:54 <krit> krit: not image resources
21:51:00 <ed> s/ing and image/html:img and svg:image/
21:52:48 <krit> resolution: use, mask, filter, clip-path and paint servers should check CORS before downloading external cross domain resources
21:53:53 <krit> shepazu: you run into problems if you disallow JS execution on external resources
21:56:01 <krit> krit: I don;t want to disallow more then needed. If there are no security problems, I am fine with keeping JS
21:56:40 <krit> shepazu: SVG deployment basis would not be to bad on compat issues if we CORS scripts as well
21:57:02 <krit> shepazu: SVG could be more restrictive
21:58:28 <krit> ed: I would personal like to let scripts apply the same as for HTML
21:59:55 <krit> shepazu: Should we also restrict script to be the same origin with cors exceptions
22:00:18 <krit> TabAtkins: sounds good for now
22:00:27 <krit> shepazu: ed is the only one with concerns
22:00:56 <krit> ed: we should verify that it does not break things
22:01:17 <krit> shepazu: do you want to revisit later?
22:01:38 <krit> ed: yes and let SVG not differ to much from HTML, that is my concern
22:03:26 <krit> action dirk to follow up with this security model on webappsec
22:03:26 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3399 - Follow up with this security model on webappsec [on Dirk Schulze - due 2012-11-15].
22:04:41 <krit> ed: would be useless if CORS jsut applies to svg:script but not on html:script elements
22:04:53 <krit> krit: I am not only talking about script elements
22:06:25 <krit> topic Should MAsking and Filter Effects normatively reference SVG2
22:06:49 <shepazu> agenda+ should <point> element be in SVG 2 or Connectors?
22:07:18 <krit> krit: I am using the DOM interface model of SVG2 on both specs, because WebIDL is just supported with SVG2
22:07:36 <krit> krit: We ahve an agreement that ne DOM interfaces should use WebIDL
22:08:55 <krit> krit: this is actualy not a big deal but means that both specs can not leave CR until SVG2 is in CR
22:09:05 <krit> ed: why does it need to be SVG2?
22:09:18 <ed> s/be/reference/
22:09:28 <krit> krit: because the DOM interface would be incompatible with SVG1.1 and WebIDL
22:09:35 <krit> krit: this is resolved in SVG2
22:09:50 <krit> krit: does anyone problems with that
22:09:56 <krit> TabAtkins: fine with that
22:10:10 <krit> ed: can leave it until it gets critical
22:10:36 <krit> krit: any other concerns
22:10:38 <krit> silence
22:10:56 <krit> krit: do we need a resoultuion
22:11:08 <krit> ed: don't think we need a resolution
22:11:44 <krit> topic point element
22:11:56 <krit> shepazu: defined SVGPointElement for SVG connectors
22:12:23 <krit> shepazu: ther might be other parts in the spec that need this point element
22:12:36 <krit> shepazu: I need to define how it works in connectors anyway
22:13:12 <krit> TabAtkins: we should go ahead and lets connectors define Point element at the moment
22:13:26 <krit> TabAtkins: if we need it somewhere else, we can move it to SVG2 core
22:13:36 <krit> krit: absolutely fine for me
22:13:55 <krit> shepazu: would like to hear camerons opinion on that
22:14:28 <cyril> cyril has joined #svg
22:15:26 <krit> krit how far is mesh gradients and star element?
22:15:34 <krit> Tav: waiting for feedback from Adobe
22:15:44 <krit> cabanier: I'll look into that
22:15:53 <krit> shepazu: nothing new on star
22:16:22 <Zakim> -Tab_Atkins
22:16:24 <Zakim> -ed
22:16:26 <Zakim> -krit
22:16:27 <Zakim> -??P7
22:16:29 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
22:16:40 <Zakim> -nikos
22:16:51 <ed> chair: ed
22:17:55 <Zakim> -cabanier
22:17:57 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:00PM has ended
22:17:57 <Zakim> Attendees were [IPcaller], ed, +61.2.980.5.aaaa, nikos, Tab_Atkins, +1.415.832.aabb, krit, cabanier, Doug_Schepers
22:18:26 <krit> ed: ping
22:19:04 <cyril_> cyril_ has joined #svg
22:19:09 <ed> krit, yes?
22:19:29 <ed> trackbot, make minutes
22:19:29 <trackbot> Sorry, ed, I don't understand 'trackbot, make minutes'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help.
22:19:38 <ed> rrsagent, make minutes
22:19:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/08-svg-minutes.html ed
22:19:44 <krit> ed: yes, that was my problem, making minutes
22:19:49 <krit> ed: thanks
22:19:59 <shepazu> TabAtkins: please fix this: https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=160101
22:20:30 <ed> krit, will you send them out, or should I?
22:21:17 <krit> ed: sure, can you say how to get to the pure text version
22:21:53 <ed> krit, just add a ,text to the end of the url - e.g http://www.w3.org/2012/11/08-svg-minutes.html,text
22:22:01 <cyril> cyril has joined #svg
22:22:01 <krit> awesome, will send
22:22:06 <krit> ed: thanks
22:22:24 <ed> np
22:24:01 <cyril_> cyril_ has joined #svg
22:26:57 <krit> congratulations cyril_ !!!
22:27:22 <krit> cyril_: How often did you celebrate your birthday already? ;)
22:30:28 <cyril_> :) yes i've been  absent often sorry... but it is  really  my only  birthday today
22:32:00 <cyril_> sorry i've  been absent lately but this is really my only  birthday today
22:32:37 <TabAtkins> shepazu: That link 403s for me.
22:35:38 <cyril_> rrsagent, pointer
22:35:38 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2012/11/08-svg-irc#T22-35-38
23:10:04 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins has left #svg