14:06:14 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wcag2ict
14:06:14 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-wcag2ict-irc
14:06:49 <Judy> zakim, who's on the phone?
14:06:49 <Zakim> sorry, Judy, I don't know what conference this is
14:06:50 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, shadi, Zakim, Judy, korn, Mike_P, BBailey, alex, Loic, MaryJo, David_MacD_Lenovo, trackbot
14:07:03 <Judy> trackbot, start meeting
14:07:05 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:07:07 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2428
14:07:07 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM scheduled to start 7 minutes ago
14:07:08 <trackbot> Meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
14:07:08 <trackbot> Date: 02 November 2012
14:07:28 <Judy> zakim, this is WAI_(WCAG2ICT)
14:07:28 <Zakim> ok, Judy; that matches WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM
14:07:30 <Zakim> + +01628590aabb
14:07:35 <Judy> zakim, who's on the phone?
14:07:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P4, ??P8, [Microsoft], Bruce_Bailey, [IPcaller], +1.512.255.aaaa, +01628590aabb, Gregg_Vanderheiden.a, [Oracle]
14:07:41 <shadi> zakim, call rhone_5
14:07:41 <Zakim> ok, shadi; the call is being made
14:07:42 <Zakim> +Rhone_5
14:07:55 <korn> Zakim, Oracle has Peter_Korn
14:07:55 <Zakim> +Peter_Korn; got it
14:08:07 <MaryJo> chair: Mike_Pluke
14:08:08 <Zakim> + +1.512.423.aacc
14:08:16 <shadi> zakim, mute rhone_5
14:08:16 <Zakim> Rhone_5 should now be muted
14:08:18 <shadi> zakim, rhone_5 has judy, shadi
14:08:18 <Zakim> +judy, shadi; got it
14:08:23 <MaryJo> zakim, aaaa is MaryJo
14:08:24 <Zakim> +MaryJo; got it
14:08:30 <shadi> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:08:30 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P4, ??P8, [Microsoft], Bruce_Bailey, [IPcaller], MaryJo, +01628590aabb, Gregg_Vanderheiden.a, [Oracle], Rhone_5 (muted), +1.512.423.aacc
14:08:32 <Andi> Andi has joined #wcag2ict
14:08:33 <Zakim> Rhone_5 has judy, shadi
14:08:33 <Zakim> [Oracle] has Peter_Korn
14:08:40 <Andi> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:08:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P4, ??P8, [Microsoft], Bruce_Bailey, [IPcaller], MaryJo, +01628590aabb, Gregg_Vanderheiden.a, [Oracle], Rhone_5 (muted), +1.512.423.aacc
14:08:43 <Zakim> Rhone_5 has judy, shadi
14:08:43 <Zakim> [Oracle] has Peter_Korn
14:08:56 <Andi> zakim, +1.512.423.aacc is Andi_Snow-Weaver
14:08:56 <Zakim> +Andi_Snow-Weaver; got it
14:09:10 <shadi> zakim, microsoft has Alex_Li
14:09:10 <Zakim> +Alex_Li; got it
14:09:25 <MaryJo> scribe: Mary_Jo_Mueller
14:09:34 <MaryJo> scribenick: MaryJo
14:10:00 <BBailey> zakim, i am bruce_bailey
14:10:00 <Zakim> ok, BBailey, I now associate you with Bruce_Bailey
14:11:01 <Kiran> Kiran has joined #wcag2ict
14:11:05 <Loic> Sorry I have to leave for some minutes...
14:11:23 <Kiran> Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:11:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P4, ??P8, [Microsoft], Bruce_Bailey, [IPcaller], MaryJo, +01628590aabb, Gregg_Vanderheiden.a, [Oracle], Rhone_5 (muted), Andi_Snow-Weaver
14:11:27 <Zakim> Rhone_5 has judy, shadi
14:11:27 <Zakim> [Oracle] has Peter_Korn
14:11:27 <Zakim> [Microsoft] has Alex_Li
14:12:16 <Kiran> Zakim, +01628590aabb is Kiran
14:12:16 <Zakim> +Kiran; got it
14:13:00 <Mike_P> Loïc's content, doesn't mention user agent
14:13:12 <Mike_P> It is: content OR content (non-Web): information and sensory experience to be communicated to the user by means of software, including the content’s structure, presentation, and interactions
14:13:28 <korn> q+
14:13:31 <Loic> I'm back
14:14:09 <Mike_P> q+
14:16:12 <MaryJo> agenda+ Final 3 (take 2), the FrontMatter, and the Introduction    (for reference)  Survey on important terms and Final Three
14:16:22 <MaryJo> agenda+ Survey for October 12th Meeting, starting with   Closed Functionality additional items
14:16:30 <MaryJo> agenda+ Action Items [4]
14:16:35 <David_MacD_Lenovo> zakim, mute me
14:16:35 <Zakim> sorry, David_MacD_Lenovo, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
14:16:39 <MaryJo> agenda+ Confirm next meeting time; action items;
14:16:51 <greggvanderheiden> greggvanderheiden has joined #wcag2ict
14:17:29 <Loic> q?
14:18:32 <shadi> zakim, ack rhone_5
14:18:32 <Zakim> unmuting Rhone_5
14:18:33 <Zakim> I see korn, Mike_P on the speaker queue
14:18:53 <shadi> zakim, mute rhone_5
14:18:53 <Zakim> Rhone_5 should now be muted
14:19:02 <MaryJo> zakim, next item
14:19:02 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Final 3 (take 2), the FrontMatter, and the Introduction    (for reference)  Survey on important terms and Final Three" taken up [from MaryJo]
14:19:06 <shadi> agenda?
14:19:15 <korn> q+
14:19:18 <shadi> zakim, ack rhone_5
14:19:18 <Zakim> unmuting Rhone_5
14:19:19 <MaryJo> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/F3FMI/
14:19:20 <Zakim> I see korn, Mike_P on the speaker queue
14:19:49 <korn> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/F3FMI/results
14:20:20 <MaryJo> results of survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/F3FMI/results
14:22:18 <MaryJo> Proposal 6 for remaining SCs - https://sites.google.com/site/wcag2ict/cross-cutting-issues-and-notes/remaining-3-scs
14:22:30 <korn> q+
14:24:03 <korn> q-
14:24:23 <MaryJo> Discussion about edit to 2.4.5 for file storage systems - change 'search function' to 'search function in a file system'
14:24:51 <Mike_P> q-
14:24:51 <greggvanderheiden> q+
14:25:47 <korn> q+
14:26:23 <alex> q+
14:27:26 <David_MacD_Lenovo> +1 on that
14:29:22 <greggvanderheiden> the tf was unable to find a generally applicable definition of what constituted a navigational mechanism in software that is analogous to the navigational mechanisms on Web Pages
14:29:37 <Judy> zakim, mute rhone_5
14:29:37 <Zakim> Rhone_5 should now be muted
14:30:06 <greggvanderheiden> ack g
14:30:08 <greggvanderheiden> ack k
14:30:18 <korn> q-
14:30:36 <MaryJo> Discussion on 3.2.3 Consistent Navigation - Proposal made to replace the paragraph for software with the above text entered by Gregg.
14:31:04 <greggvanderheiden> q+
14:31:08 <greggvanderheiden> ack a
14:31:24 <Judy_clone> Judy_clone has joined #wcag2ict
14:32:41 <Judy_clone> zakim, unmute Rhone_5
14:32:41 <Zakim> Rhone_5 should no longer be muted
14:32:56 <Mike_P> q+
14:33:42 <alex> q+
14:33:51 <korn> q+
14:34:23 <MaryJo> Concern expressed that we aren't direct in saying this SC doesn't apply. However, that isn't within the allowable scope of our WG.
14:34:59 <MaryJo> Whoever picks up our work (508 and EU M376) can document that this SC doesn't apply.
14:35:19 <greggvanderheiden> ack g
14:35:22 <greggvanderheiden> ack m
14:36:14 <greggvanderheiden> The task force was also unable to find a generally applicable definition of what constituted a navigational mechanism in software that is analogous to the navigational mechanisms on Web Pages
14:36:58 <greggvanderheiden> q+
14:37:03 <korn> q?
14:37:04 <greggvanderheiden> ack a
14:37:51 <MaryJo> In the EU M376 technical report, it has an explanation in similar words to our WCAG2ICT document for the SC it has listed in the mandate that don't apply.
14:39:00 <BBailey> q+
14:39:13 <MaryJo> If our experts can't figure out what a set of software is or what navigational mechanisms need to be consistent in software, we don't recommend that the U.S. Access Board try to apply those SC.
14:39:22 <greggvanderheiden> The task force was also unable to find a generally applicable definition of what constituted a navigational mechanism in software that is analogous to the navigational mechanisms on Web Pages so were unable to provide any guidance that could be applied to software in general.  We were also unable to find any specific scoping language that would say which software it would apply to except by example.
14:40:13 <greggvanderheiden> q?
14:40:17 <greggvanderheiden> ack k
14:40:32 <Mike_P> q+
14:41:10 <korn> q-
14:41:25 <greggvanderheiden> The task force was also unable to find a generally applicable definition of what constituted a navigational mechanism in software that is analogous to the navigational mechanisms on Web Pages so were unable to provide any guidance that could be applied to software in general.  We were also unable to find any specific scoping language that would say which software it would apply to except by example or by referring back to the success
14:41:25 <greggvanderheiden> criterion provision itself.
14:42:17 <korn> q+
14:42:22 <BBailey> q-
14:43:59 <greggvanderheiden> ack g
14:44:07 <David_MacD_Lenovo> q+
14:44:14 <MaryJo> Even if we can come up with a few examples, we can't make a requirement based on examples. We'd have to find a good scoping definition that developers of software can apply to determine if the SC applies. Thisis something we have been unable to do thus far.
14:44:15 <Mike_P> q-
14:46:35 <greggvanderheiden> The task force was also unable to find a generally applicable definition of what constituted a navigational mechanism in software that is analogous to the navigational mechanisms on Web Pages so were unable to provide any guidance that could be applied to software in general.  We were also unable to find any specific scoping language that would say which software to which it would apply.
14:47:44 <greggvanderheiden> q+
14:48:17 <MaryJo> Proposal was made to add 'therefore our guidance is to not apply this SC to software'.
14:48:19 <greggvanderheiden> ack k
14:48:23 <greggvanderheiden> ack d
14:49:06 <Mike_P> q+
14:49:46 <MaryJo> Some thought this statement should be more neutral.
14:50:01 <korn> q+
14:50:48 <MaryJo> s/this statement should be/the above proposal about recommending the SC not be applied should be made/
14:51:38 <BBailey> q+ To say that I am still not seeing a coherent written reason why, for example, 3.2.3 is okay for web applications, but not for software.
14:51:39 <korn> korn has joined #wcag2ict
14:51:54 <greggvanderheiden> ack g
14:51:59 <korn> korn has joined #wcag2ict
14:52:27 <Zakim> -Kiran
14:52:32 <korn> korn has joined #wcag2ict
14:52:34 <greggvanderheiden> ack m
14:52:39 <greggvanderheiden> q+
14:53:05 <korn> "...therefore, in the face of no definition of a 'set of software', our guidance is to not apply this SC generally to softrware"
14:53:10 <korn> Note also what we are suggesting go into INTENT (for 2.4.1: "Note:  Even for web pages that are not in a set, if a web page has  blocks of text that are repeated within the page it may be helpful (but  not required) to provide a means to skip over them." and  for 3.2.3: "Note: Even for web pages that are not in a set, if a web page has  navigational mechanisms that are repeated within the page it may be  helpful (but  not required) to have them be cons[CUT]
14:53:20 <MaryJo> s/softrware/software/
14:54:46 <MaryJo> We don't necessarily want to say never apply the SC, but not to apply this SC in general to all software.
14:55:36 <korn> q-
14:56:02 <korn> q+
14:56:04 <Zakim> +Kiran
14:56:45 <MaryJo> It isn't well articulated in writing how a way was found to apply this to a Web application, but not to software.
14:57:18 <BBailey> ack bruce
14:57:18 <Zakim> Bruce_Bailey, you wanted to say that I am still not seeing a coherent written reason why, for example, 3.2.3 is okay for web applications, but not for software.
14:57:26 <BBailey> ack gregg
14:58:07 <Kiran> Kiran has joined #wcag2ict
14:59:32 <Andi> q+
15:00:03 <MaryJo> We could document our concern over what is mandatory vs. what is a good idea.
15:00:39 <Andi> q-
15:00:51 <MaryJo> On the web you have URIs, and navigation is what takes you from one page to another page.  We don't have an analog for that in software.
15:01:21 <Mike_P> q+
15:06:04 <korn> q-
15:06:29 <MaryJo> Concern expressed that we aren't covering repeated screens within a software package.
15:06:48 <MaryJo> The issue is what is navigation, is it the movement of focus? Touch UI's don't really have the notion of focus, but the screen reader imposes its own 'focus'.
15:07:10 <greggvanderheiden> The task force was also unable to find a generally applicable definition of what constituted a navigational mechanism in software that is analogous to the navigational mechanisms on Web Pages where the navigational mechanism is links or a simple menu of links that moves the user between discreet entities that alway exist (web pages) for all web content - but does not exist for all types of software.     As a result the task force is [CUT]
15:07:10 <greggvanderheiden> to provide any guidance that could be applied across software in general.  We were also unable to find any specific scoping language that would define to which software  it would always apply.  The task force does believe that it is good advice to consider both across and within software - but not something that could be applied for software in general or for any subset that we were able to define.
15:07:13 <greggvanderheiden> q+
15:07:15 <MaryJo> There's also the issue what is the equivalent to going back to the place you started from after navigating somewhere?
15:07:21 <greggvanderheiden> ack m
15:07:40 <BBailey> ack gregg
15:08:45 <korn> q+
15:10:38 <BBailey> q+ To say it is descriptive enough.
15:10:46 <korn> q-
15:10:53 <BBailey> ack b
15:10:53 <Zakim> Bruce_Bailey, you wanted to say it is descriptive enough.
15:11:36 <alex> q
15:11:47 <alex> q+
15:12:41 <greggvanderheiden> The task force was also unable to find a generally applicable definition of what constituted a navigational mechanism in software that is analogous to the navigational mechanisms on Web Pages.  With web pages there are  links or a simple menu of links that moves the user between discreet entities that alway exist (web pages) for all web content. However that does not exist for all types of software.    As a result the task force is unable
15:12:42 <greggvanderheiden> to provide any guidance that could be applied across software in general.  We were also unable to find any specific scoping language that would define to which software  it would always apply.  The task force does believe that it is good advice to consider both across and within software - but not something that the task force could find a way to apply to software in general or for any subset that we were able to define.
15:13:16 <korn> Second sentence: "FOr web pages, navigation mechanisms are links or a simple menu..."
15:14:58 <greggvanderheiden> : The task force was also unable to find a generally applicable definition of what constituted a navigational mechanism in software that is analogous to the navigational mechanisms on Web Pages.  For web pages  navigation mechanisms are links or a simple menu of links that moves the user between discreet entities that alway exist (web pages) for all web content. However that does not exist for all types of software.    As a result th[CUT]
15:14:59 <greggvanderheiden> force is unable to provide any guidance that could be applied across software in general.  We were also unable to find any specific scoping language that would define to which software  it would always apply.  The task force does believe that it is good advice to consider both across and within software - but not something that the task force could find a way to apply to software in general or to any subset that we were able to define.
15:15:23 <alex> q+
15:15:34 <greggvanderheiden> The task force was also unable to find a generally applicable definition of what constituted a navigational mechanism in software that is analogous to the navigational mechanisms on Web Pages.  For web pages  navigation mechanisms are links or a simple menu of links that move the user between discreet entities that alway exist (web pages) for all web content. However that does not exist for all types of software.    As a result the task
15:15:34 <greggvanderheiden> force is unable to provide any guidance that could be applied across software in general.  We were also unable to find any specific scoping language that would define to which software  it would always apply.  The task force does believe that it is good advice to consider both across and within software - but not something that the task force could find a way to apply to software in general or to any subset that we were able to define.
15:18:56 <alex> Yes, maryjo
15:19:23 <greggvanderheiden> since we cannot determine how to interpret "set of software", the task force is unable to provide any guidance that could be applied across software in general.   We were also unable to find any specific scoping language that would define to which software it would always apply.  The task force does believe that it is good advice to consider both across and within software - but not something that the task force could find a way to a[CUT]
15:19:24 <greggvanderheiden> software in general or to any subset that we were able to define.
15:19:40 <korn> Here's what I have Gregg: "the task force is unable to provide any guidance that could be  applied <to software in a set of software> in general.  We were also unable to find any  specific scoping language that would define to which <sets of software it would> always apply.  "
15:19:46 <MaryJo> RESOLUTION: Accept text for software in 3.2.3 in proposal #7 as updated in the meeting.
15:19:56 <MaryJo> s/Yes, maryjo//
15:21:17 <greggvanderheiden> since we cannot determine how to interpret "set of software", the task force is unable to provide any guidance that could be  applied to software in a set of software in general.  We were also unable to find any  specific scoping language that would define to which sets of software it would always apply.
15:21:23 <MaryJo> Discussion on what to edit for 'set of software' to use similar language used in 3.2.3.
15:22:37 <MaryJo> s/to use similar language used/and use language similar to our consensed language for 3.2.3/
15:28:04 <MaryJo> suggestion made to edited general text for software to change 'We were also unable to find...' to 'As a result, the task force was unable to find..."
15:30:20 <korn> +1 - works for me!
15:30:38 <Loic> +1
15:31:01 <David_MacD_Lenovo> +1
15:32:18 <MaryJo> RESOLUTION: Accept all text in proposal #7 for as updated in the meeting (2.4.1, 2.4.5, and 3.2.3 plus common template).
15:32:40 <MaryJo> zakim, next item
15:32:40 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, MaryJo
15:32:46 <MaryJo> q?
15:33:02 <MaryJo> ack a
15:33:07 <MaryJo> zakim, next item
15:33:07 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Survey for October 12th Meeting, starting with   Closed Functionality additional items" taken up [from MaryJo]
15:33:44 <MaryJo> topic: Frontmatter information
15:33:46 <MaryJo> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/F3FMI/results#xq2
15:34:37 <Andi> q+
15:34:44 <korn> q+
15:34:52 <MaryJo> There were some suggestions to change the title and edit other information for the FrontMatter and Introduction sections in the survey. We'll have to cover this on Tuesday.
15:36:14 <MaryJo> Shawn Henry did some of the wording on these sections, as well as the organization of the information in the sections.
15:36:37 <Andi> ack Andi
15:36:44 <MaryJo> The survey will remain open for reviewers to respond for the Tuesday meeting.
15:38:16 <Zakim> -Andi_Snow-Weaver
15:39:19 <MaryJo> Suggestion that Alex and Judi work together to resolve issues for the remaining survey questions.
15:41:14 <Zakim> -Kiran
15:42:38 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
15:42:50 <Zakim> -MaryJo
15:42:52 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
15:42:53 <Zakim> -Bruce_Bailey
15:42:54 <Zakim> -Gregg_Vanderheiden.a
15:42:55 <BBailey> bye
15:42:58 <Zakim> -[Oracle]
15:42:59 <Zakim> -??P8
15:43:00 <Zakim> -??P4
15:43:02 <Zakim> -Rhone_5
15:43:03 <Zakim> WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM has ended
15:43:03 <Zakim> Attendees were Gregg_Vanderheiden, Bruce_Bailey, [IPcaller], +1.512.255.aaaa, Peter_Korn, judy, shadi, MaryJo, Andi_Snow-Weaver, Alex_Li, Kiran
15:43:07 <MaryJo> s/bye//
15:43:15 <MaryJo> rrsagent, make minutes
15:43:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-wcag2ict-minutes.html MaryJo
15:43:29 <korn> korn has left #wcag2ict
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15:58:36 <MaryJo> zakim, bye
15:58:36 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wcag2ict
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21:41:13 <Judy> Judy has joined #wcag2ict
23:34:55 <Judy> Judy has left #wcag2ict