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10:10:53 <Lachy> Topic: URLs
10:11:00 <SimonSapin> I’m interested to know if I’m gonna need to rewrite the urlparse python module.
10:11:10 <annevk> annevk has changed the topic to: http://url.spec.whatwg.org/
10:11:33 <annevk> RRSAgent: make minutes public
10:11:33 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', annevk.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
10:11:40 <annevk> RRSAgent, make logs public
10:12:16 <cabanier> URL: http://url.spec.whatwg.org/
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10:16:38 <paulc> If anyone knows where Larry Masinter is please invite him to this session.
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10:18:51 <Lachy> [missed some discussion at the beginning. Starting logs now.
10:19:11 <Lachy> annevk: Some characters, such as square brackets, are not percent escaped when sent over the wire.
10:19:27 <Lachy> annevk: It's better to be more conservative in what's escaped for compatibility
10:20:00 <Lachy> annevk: we're limited in what we escape. If we want to match STD 66 model, we have to escape more. That's not happening.
10:20:29 <Lachy> timbl: you want to have a standard that you can round trip.
10:20:48 <Lachy> annevk: with HTML, you try to enforce postels law. Strict in what you produce, liberal in what you accept.
10:20:58 <Lachy> … the syntax is strict, the parser is liberal
10:21:09 <Lachy> … The parser only stops at fatal errors.
10:21:27 <Lachy> timbl: I don't want URLs written according to the existing standard being interpreted differently.
10:22:13 <Lachy> annevk: I think that is largely not the case. I'm not sure how the current spec deals with relative URLs.
10:22:29 <Lachy> … the way it's implemented in browsers is that there's a certain class of relative URLs. It depends on the scheme.
10:23:01 <Lachy> paulc: When you say the way it's implemented in browsers, is the situation you're dealing with that the browsers are uniformly doing the same thing? Or large proporiton of them?
10:23:17 <Lachy> annevk: all browsers require to not conform to that data model, but there is wiggle room in what they can do.
10:23:33 <Lachy> … at opera we found that being conservative is beter for compat.
10:23:51 <Lachy> timbl: maybe you should do an overview
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10:24:25 <Lachy> dirk: You say that URL will be based on URI.
10:24:43 <Lachy> annevk: if we can compare it to the RFC, the URL syntax matches IRI.
10:25:02 <Lachy> … the syntax is broad. It escapes characters over U+7F
10:25:02 <divya> s/dirk/krit
10:25:50 <Lachy> annevk: fragments are escaped in the parsing step.
10:26:23 <Lachy> … e.g. if you have an ID with a euro character, then the character in the URL will be percent encoded as a byte sequence.
10:27:26 <Lachy> annevk: you have to make it dependent on the document type.
10:28:02 <Lachy> larry: If the fragment contains non-normalised unicode, the matching might need to be a loose matching.
10:28:35 <Lachy> … it might be you have fragments that are written out not in percent encoding, but the matching algorithm does the reverse mapping
10:28:47 <Lachy> … Normally matching from a URI to IRI is a heuristing process.
10:28:58 <Lachy> annevk: it's part of the application layer.
10:29:10 <Lachy> … e.g. SVG takes the fragment, turns it into unicode.
10:29:23 <Lachy> larry: Does it turn the fragment into unicode or do a loose matching algorighm
10:29:28 <Lachy> annevk: HTML turns it into unicode
10:31:32 <Lachy> annevk: do you have some things in general to say about it?
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10:31:39 <Lachy> larry: There are 4 specs. There should be 1.
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10:32:04 <Lachy> … The IETF documents were the documents of record. If they're no longer, they need to be closed off.
10:32:11 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
10:32:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-urlstandard-minutes.html MikeSmith
10:32:14 <Lachy> … what do you do with all of the other specs that refer to it?
10:32:26 <Lachy> … The IETF spec says more about comparison.
10:32:36 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make logs public
10:33:02 <Lachy> … The HTML document has something tha was in progress, but needs to be replaced or something
10:33:31 <Lachy> paulc: When the URL work from moved from HTML to WebApps, people thought it would be removed from the HTML spec. It wasn't.
10:33:44 <Lachy> larry: that will be easier to fix later.
10:34:12 <Lachy> annevk: the web apps document is obsolete.
10:34:33 <Lachy> MikeSmith: the editors draft refers to annevk's spec.
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10:35:19 <Lachy> MikeSmith: Julian's tests are great for what they are, but will need updating to state the expected result.
10:35:46 <Lachy> larry: The spec in the HTML spec has an advantage in its style in that it normatively references the IETF spec.
10:36:10 <Lachy> … If you look at the latest version of the IETF document, it was changed ...
10:37:22 <Lachy> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-iri-3987bis-13
10:38:11 <Lachy> larry: see section 7
10:38:28 <Lachy> … "Processing of URIs/IRIs/URLs by Web Browsers"
10:38:44 <Lachy> it points to annevk's document
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10:38:57 <Lachy> s/it points/... it points/
10:39:34 <Lachy> larry: Any valid URI is a valid string that can be used in an HTML document if it's in UTF-8
10:39:42 <Lachy> … then the special processing of the query is the same.
10:39:51 <Lachy> annevk: I think that is true, but I have questions.
10:39:56 <Lachy> … If I write http:test
10:40:01 <Lachy> … that is valid URI?
10:40:28 <Lachy> timbl: It's not a valid HTTP uri, but syntactically correct.
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10:40:38 <Lachy> annevk: it's considered a relative reference by by browsers.
10:40:46 <Lachy> timbl: not in the standard.
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10:41:12 <Lachy> larry: does it parse into HTTP scheme with test at the host or path?
10:41:34 <Lachy> annevk: the parser algorithm does both resolving against the base URL. If there's no base URL, you get HTTP scheme and test as the host.
10:41:42 <Lachy> … If there is, then it's resolved as a path.
10:41:58 <Lachy> timbl: I've got old code. It says if there's a colon, it's a scheme.
10:42:38 <Lachy> … If you're going to document this bizarre practice, then you're going to have something incompatible with a bunch of code, or a special section just for browsers.
10:43:17 <Lachy> hsivonen: I think this section on browsers is a distraction. There is other software that is not a browser, that I want to process content in a way compatible with browsers.
10:43:36 <Lachy> … e.g. the HTML validator needs to fetch URLs. It's not a browser, but it doesn't make sense to fetch something different.
10:43:53 <Lachy> … e.g. link checker or spider. I would want http:test to parse the same way as browsers.
10:44:11 <Lachy> … it's apps that want web compat vs. apps that don't
10:45:28 <Lachy> … In the HTML validator, I'm using a jenga (???) IRI library.
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10:45:56 <Lachy> … It has different behaviours for URIs, IRIs, etc.
10:45:59 <masinter> the question is scope
10:46:25 <masinter> scope: HTML, HTML on some OS, http: only, file:, other schemes, mailto:, etc.
10:46:28 <Lachy> … there's already 6 different configurations to make it behave in different ways. Not one is that I want it to be compatible with the web, and yet it's the best Java library available.
10:46:50 <masinter> "how browsers do it" may not be the right scope
10:46:53 <Lachy> … for any Java based app that wants to spider the web, the most successful implementation would be compatible with browsers.
10:47:36 <Lachy> larry: many of the libraries are conditional about whether they're case sensitive depends on the system. e.g. for file URLs
10:47:50 <Lachy> annevk: file URLs are a bit hard. I'm working on them.
10:48:04 <Lachy> s/larry/masinter/
10:48:09 <SimonSapin> s/working on them/not working on them/ ?
10:48:38 <masinter> "What browsers do" might only be "what some browsers do for http: URIs on some file systems"
10:48:39 <annevk> SimonSapin: no, I'm trying to "fix" them
10:48:41 <Lachy> s/not//
10:48:44 <annevk> SimonSapin: well, define
10:48:50 <SimonSapin> ok
10:49:26 <masinter> I thought I heard that what some browsers do in some circumstances may depend....
10:49:38 <Lachy> [missed a bit]
10:50:42 <Lachy> hsivonen: The URL bar is UI. It nees to accept what's pasted into it, but can have different processing based on what users type.
10:51:15 <masinter> is there any real-world content that depends on http:test being treated as a relative IRI in contexts where there is a base?
10:51:24 <Lachy> dbaron: I wouldn't expect any differences in those different places (HTTP, XML, etc.)
10:51:49 <Lachy> … Putting it in an HTML attribute may require some escaping. But I don't know of any software that's going to interpret URLs differently based on if it's in HTML or XML.
10:52:22 <Lachy> hsivonen: timbl's diagram represents what that java library does. To fix the bug, we should use the HTTP stuff for all of it.
10:52:37 <Lachy> s/HTTP/HTML/
10:53:06 <Lachy> annevk: You're confusing syntax and the model.
10:53:27 <Lachy> … HTML syntax escaping disappears once it's represented as a model.
10:54:18 <Lachy> annevk: the spec model is that you get a set of code points - a string - that goes into the parser.
10:54:55 <Lachy> … HTML handles entity references. The string passed to the URL parser excludes that HTML specific syntax.
10:54:57 <masinter> test_resolve('bare host', 'http://example.org/', 'http:test', 'http://example.org/test');
10:55:10 <Lachy> … the DOM level passes it off to the URL level.
10:55:13 <Lachy> ScribeNick: Lachy
10:55:17 <masinter> so http:test the test is treated as a path, not as a host name
10:55:25 <masinter> in chrome on windows
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10:55:55 <Lachy> hsivonen: what happens is that the URL parser knows the original character encoding.
10:56:07 <Lachy> … the DOM has UTF-16 strings.
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10:56:35 <Lachy> … The leakage is that it remembers the original encoding that was parsed, and it is given to the URL parser.
10:56:52 <Lachy> dbaron: that extra parameter is used for less than it used to be, I think?
10:56:57 <MikeSmith> s/the editors draft refers to member:annevk's spec/we have a WebApps WG FPWD of URL but not a current editor's draft/
10:57:02 <Lachy> … I think there has been change over time more recently than I thought.
10:57:07 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
10:57:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-urlstandard-minutes.html MikeSmith
10:57:19 <Lachy> … There was a reduction in where IE changed incompatibly around IE7 or 8 and it reduced that leakage.
10:57:55 <Lachy> annevk: basic design: You ahve a string and a base URL and encoding override. Those go into the parser. The parser outputs an object represeenting the URL.
10:58:13 <Lachy> hsivonen: In addition to passing null for the encoding, you can also pass null for the base URL.
10:58:28 <Lachy> timbl: then there's a serialiser
10:58:39 <Lachy> annevk: the serialiser doesn't get the encoding override.
10:58:45 <masinter> We have four specs for URL/IRI/URI either around or planned:
10:58:45 <masinter> 
10:58:45 <masinter>  * IETF 3297bis
10:58:46 <masinter>    - draft http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-iri-3987bis
10:58:48 <masinter>   - wg  http://tools.ietf.org/wg/iri/charters, mailto:Public-iri@w3.org
10:58:51 <masinter>   - chairs Peter, Chris
10:58:55 <masinter>   - editors me, Martin
10:58:58 <masinter>   Reason: Group established for 3 years, IETF is "official" spec for URIs, etc, referenced by W3C HTML
10:59:00 <Lachy> … when you serialise it, you just output the string, you don't need to know the orignal encoding.
10:59:01 <masinter> 
10:59:04 <masinter>  * W3C HTML WG
10:59:07 <masinter>    - Spec http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/urls.html#urls
10:59:11 <masinter>   - Wg http://www.w3.org/html/wg/  mailto:public-html@w3.org
10:59:14 <masinter>   - chairs  Paul, Maciej, Sam
10:59:17 <masinter>   - editors team led by Robin Berjon
10:59:20 <masinter>   Reason: stable document, no plans for changing unless bug submitted
10:59:24 <masinter> 
10:59:27 <masinter> * W3C WebApps URL spec
10:59:27 <masinter>   - draft not done, currently pointing to Anne's spec, but plan is to create new spec by copying Anne's draft
10:59:30 <masinter>   - wg   http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/  group email public-webapps@w3.org
10:59:33 <masinter>   - Chairs Art, Charles
10:59:36 <Lachy> annevk: say we have windows-1251 as the encoding override.
10:59:37 <masinter>   Reason: now chartered by W3C to develop spec
10:59:41 <masinter> 
10:59:44 <masinter> * WHATWG spec
10:59:45 <Lachy> … this is our query: ?€
10:59:47 <masinter>   - draft http://url.spec.whatwg.org
10:59:51 <masinter>    - wg http://www.w3.org/community/whatwg/ email whatwg@whatwg.org
10:59:54 <masinter>   - editor Anne van Kesteren
10:59:54 <masinter>   Reason: WHATWG members defer to Anne
10:59:57 <masinter> 
11:00:00 <masinter>  No group has plans to drop spec.
11:00:04 <masinter> 
11:00:07 <masinter> Other groups that have discussed this
11:00:11 <masinter>    -  IETF/W3C liaisons (Mark, Thomas, Philippe) and IETF/W3C public-ietf-w3c@w3.org
11:00:14 <masinter>   - W3C Advisory Committee w3c-ac-forum@w3.org yesterday
11:00:15 <Lachy> … that goes into the parser and it comes up with: ?%80 in the parsed URL. The serialiser will output this.
11:00:17 <masinter>   - W3C TAG www-tag@w3.org  various action items
11:00:21 <masinter>   - IETF discussion list ietf@ietf.org  discussion spilled over
11:00:24 <masinter>   - URI mailing list uri@ietf.org   also involved
11:00:27 <masinter> 
11:00:27 <masinter> Testing should help converge the specifications, so results of testing and plans for them should help (Chris, Simon, Kris)
11:00:30 <masinter> 
11:01:33 <Lachy> annevk: eventually everyone should move to UTF-8 to avoid problems. The model we have is ugly.
11:02:29 <Lachy> masinter: we need to deprecate the idea that you can convert a URI with percent encoding into an IRI.
11:02:39 <Lachy> … it's a heuristic process.
11:02:55 <Lachy> … we have no idea whether it ever came from an IRI, so it shouldn't affect any definition of the syntax.
11:03:08 <Lachy> … There's just some funny things going on in the back ends of servers.
11:03:59 <Lachy> … it's a special case having non-ASCII characters in the query string.
11:04:10 <Lachy> annevk: it's very common in non-UTF-8 documents.
11:04:55 <Lachy> masinter: processing is in 2 steps. First parse it into components.
11:05:12 <Lachy> … then you translate as necessary.
11:05:17 <Lachy> annevk: no, you translate while parsing.
11:05:24 <dbaron> I think https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=261929 is the bug documenting where Mozilla reduced the amount that the origin encoding was used for.
11:05:33 <Lachy> annevk: every browser implements one URL parser.
11:05:37 <Lachy> … except for webkit
11:06:06 <Lachy> annevk: other applications try to converge with web browsers.
11:06:24 <Lachy> masinter: the host time, IDN, the parser translates them to puny code?
11:06:26 <Lachy> annevk: yes
11:06:35 <Lachy> masinter: even in IE, Windows?
11:06:56 <Lachy> paulc: there's a standard Windows library parser in the OS.
11:07:07 <Lachy> timbl: 2 points of order
11:07:17 <Lachy> … 1 it's 12:06 and we've run out of time. 2. Lunch.
11:07:28 <Lachy> RRSAgent: make minutes
11:07:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-urlstandard-minutes.html Lachy
11:07:59 <Lachy> timbl: the other thing, when we started the W3C, we did HTML and HTTP URIs. We tried HTML in the IETF, didn't have the publishing people.
11:08:19 <Lachy> … but HTTP, we did in the IETF in order to get the people designing protocols to review it.
11:09:04 <Lachy> … If you're going to do this work, it's important to unify all this, a classic way to do that is to get all the people involved, who have written other URI parsers, who are going to the IETF.
11:09:19 <Lachy> … going to the trouble to go to their place is sensible.
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11:10:38 <Lachy> RRSAgent: make minutes
11:10:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-urlstandard-minutes.html Lachy
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15:36:30 <masinter> opendata
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