IRC log of respimg on 2012-10-31
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 12:38:04 [RRSAgent]
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- 12:38:04 [RRSAgent]
- logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-respimg-irc
- 12:38:28 [Ryladog]
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- 12:40:23 [Rossen]
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- 12:40:48 [lstorset]
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- 12:41:56 [vhardy]
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- 12:42:29 [vhardy]
- Are the slides available on-line?
- 12:42:35 [Cyril]
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- 12:42:43 [jalvinen]
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- 12:42:56 [lstorset]
- Art direction use case: crop image differently depending on how much space you have.
- 12:42:57 [lstorset]
- Design breakpoints: You get pixelation or JPEG artifacts at certain points. Designers adapt the design to different breakpoints and adapt the images to that.
- 12:43:01 [Cyril]
- RRSAgent, make logs public
- 12:43:21 [markw_]
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- 12:43:24 [lstorset]
- [goals]
- 12:43:33 [tidoust]
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- 12:44:01 [lstorset]
- On printed documents, half-toned pictures look bad, while text is crisp
- 12:44:36 [jalvinen]
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- 12:44:45 [lstorset]
- In print, communicating with color is meaningless
- 12:45:09 [jalvinen]
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- 12:45:19 [lstorset]
- can't read a chart with any certainty
- 12:45:35 [odinho_]
- ScribeNick: lstorset
- 12:46:09 [lstorset]
- More aesthetically pleasing to show different image in portrait and landscape mode
- 12:46:26 [lstorset]
- media- and feature-specific responses
- 12:46:50 [lstorset]
- Most people won't notice, but good for TVs: When app is scaled up to a dimension where images don't keep up, they get badly pixelated
- 12:47:01 [lstorset]
- You want to replace image with higher quality
- 12:47:20 [lstorset]
- Another use case is APIs
- 12:47:30 [lstorset]
- Canvas, gUM(), MediaCapture
- 12:47:50 [tpacbot]
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- 12:48:02 [lstorset]
- frex, on IOS 6 and Android you can take panoramas out of the box, 22 Mpix imgs
- 12:48:11 [lstorset]
- want to show specific bits to specific devices
- 12:48:19 [lstorset]
- Final case: Image formats
- 12:48:26 [lstorset]
- WebP, JPEG-XR
- 12:48:35 [lstorset]
- Not universally supported, but represents >20% of market
- 12:48:40 [lstorset]
- Opera, Chrome
- 12:48:52 [tpacbot]
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- 12:49:00 [lstorset]
- With Windows 8, JPEG-XR to many clients, depending on uptake of that os
- 12:49:13 [lstorset]
- Can't target w/o server-side solution, though
- 12:49:22 [lstorset]
- Can't test whether browser supports img. format out of the box
- 12:49:29 [lstorset]
- Also for futur eformats
- 12:49:32 [lstorset]
- hard to add new formats
- 12:49:35 [lstorset]
- to the web
- 12:49:51 [lstorset]
- <video> does provide a solution, but not pretty
- 12:50:06 [lstorset]
- because codec war happen to be going on, and this solution was a fix
- 12:50:11 [lstorset]
- could be useful for imgs as well.
- 12:50:28 [lstorset]
- This is what the CG has looked on in the past year
- 12:50:40 [lstorset]
- Iterative process to define use cases
- 12:50:56 [lstorset]
- Initially heavily focused on bandwidth, but we as CG can't address that.
- 12:51:17 [lstorset]
- Responses from e.g. WHATWG with srcset
- 12:51:23 [shepazu]
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- 12:51:33 [lstorset]
- <picture> works like <video>
- 12:51:54 [lstorset]
- [btw, Marcos1 said all the above]
- 12:52:04 [lstorset]
- (code sample for <picture>)
- 12:52:11 [JohnAlbin]
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- 12:52:27 [lstorset]
- legacy-browser fallback <img> within <picture>; accessible text
- 12:52:37 [lstorset]
- Could throw in ARIA
- 12:52:41 [lstorset]
- Questions?
- 12:52:45 [lstorset]
- Comments about use cases?
- 12:53:00 [lstorset]
- ??: …
- 12:53:12 [lstorset]
- Alt has problems, e.g. with accesibility. Can't add markup structures
- 12:53:16 [lstorset]
- can't set direction of text
- 12:53:22 [lstorset]
- without Unicode points
- 12:53:30 [lstorset]
- can't express role of an image
- 12:53:36 [lstorset]
- i18n issue is a big one.
- 12:54:11 [lstorset]
- ??: Why would you want additional ontent for an image?
- 12:54:27 [lstorset]
- hober: image with tabular data would need a table to reprsent it accessibly
- 12:54:38 [Cyril]
- q+
- 12:54:47 [lstorset]
- vhardy: Slides online?
- 12:54:59 [lstorset]
- Marcos1: will be, will fix them after presenting tomorrow
- 12:55:15 [hober]
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- 12:55:21 [lstorset]
- vhardy: One problem with respimg. preloading, will you address this?
- 12:55:22 [hellogeri]
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- 12:55:23 [lstorset]
- Marcos1: yes
- 12:55:55 [lstorset]
- krit: UC is showing different parts of img depending on screen size is solved by MQ and CSS images 3
- 12:55:58 [Norbert]
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- 12:56:11 [lstorset]
- Marcos1: You need <div> tags. We'd like proper markup
- 12:56:33 [lstorset]
- ?? telecom: Reminds me of responsive videos/adaptive streaming
- 12:56:54 [lstorset]
- Marcos1: Already solved for a while is my impression
- 12:57:06 [rotsuya]
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- 12:57:19 [lstorset]
- … solutions are tailored for online/offline, don't need to download 20 differet versions
- 12:57:25 [lstorset]
- … Also applicable to e-books
- 12:57:32 [lstorset]
- … videos in e-books
- 12:57:55 [lstorset]
- ??: Maybe things can be ported from videos. Could select image from pbandwidth.
- 12:58:26 [lstorset]
- ??b: Videos can be much bigger. Can request ranges over time. 1-2 videos per page. With images, many more.
- 12:58:29 [shepazu]
- ♫R-E-S-P-I-M-G, Find out what it means to me, R-E-S-P-I-M-G, Take care, <img> ♫
- 12:58:37 [lstorset]
- … re: performance better to send only one request per image
- 12:59:04 [chaals]
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- 12:59:12 [lstorset]
- … if two reqs per img – main problem is fetching.
- 12:59:31 [lstorset]
- … If we had format to represent multiple resolutions (jpeg2000), problem is still fetching mechanism
- 12:59:37 [lstorset]
- … need to fetch img. header with bytemap
- 12:59:42 [lstorset]
- … then the actual content
- 12:59:58 [lstorset]
- … May be other solutions, I am working on some things
- 13:00:20 [lstorset]
- ?? telecom: SVG is working on mapping and tiling images.
- 13:00:31 [lstorset]
- … Changing layouts at the same time?
- 13:00:41 [lstorset]
- Marcos1: odinho will cover the latter
- 13:00:56 [lstorset]
- chaals: Adapt to videos as they are downloadinng. imgs are single hit.
- 13:01:15 [lstorset]
- … if imgs were downloaded in stream, could use video solution
- 13:01:32 [Cyril]
- s/?? telecom/Cyril Concolato/
- 13:01:36 [chaals]
- [but they aren't]
- 13:01:48 [lstorset]
- Dong Yong?: Another UC is stereoscopic displays
- 13:01:57 [Cyril]
- s/??/Cyril Concolato/
- 13:02:21 [lstorset]
- odinho: Don't want lots of negotiation with server-side, doesn't scale. Want logic in client.
- 13:02:38 [lstorset]
- [slides]
- 13:02:41 [lstorset]
- Two proposals
- 13:02:52 [lstorset]
- Very different at a fundamental level, but somewhat hard to see it.
- 13:03:12 [lstorset]
- Many UCs, I'm focusing on having different size pictures and don't want huge pictures under the fold
- 13:03:39 [lstorset]
- Difference between srcset and picture, is that scset is shorter, declarative and UA may choose algorithm. The latter is important.
- 13:03:55 [lstorset]
- srcset only gives hints, does not tell the ua what to do.
- 13:04:03 [lstorset]
- picture is more powerful, has known behavior, not a hint.
- 13:04:38 [lstorset]
- … If your user is extremely interested in small image sizes due to expensive data, the page author won't send the user what the user wants
- 13:05:02 [lstorset]
- … Why don't authors like MQs?
- 13:05:19 [lstorset]
- … Telling ua exactly what to do and how.
- 13:05:34 [krit1]
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- 13:05:48 [tantek]
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- 13:05:57 [lstorset]
- … uas may want to do more smart stuff in the future. A small browser with specific user group may want to behave in another way than what the author thought about.
- 13:06:09 [lstorset]
- … 2x–like selection is not enough
- 13:06:16 [lstorset]
- … (from <picture>)
- 13:06:44 [lstorset]
- … NOt only about swithing resolutions. On my phone a 2x dpi display
- 13:07:10 [lstorset]
- … will fetch the big picture, even if small display doesn't benefit from it
- 13:07:43 [lstorset]
- … print customization is possible with MQs
- 13:07:52 [lstorset]
- [code sample]
- 13:08:14 [lstorset]
- <picture> <source media="min-width…">
- 13:08:19 [lstorset]
- … same with srcset
- 13:08:47 [lstorset]
- … <picture> needs an extra line for media=print
- 13:08:57 [lstorset]
- … That's a big problem. Both because it prevents innovation
- 13:09:10 [lstorset]
- … e.g. "browsing" with printer
- 13:09:28 [lstorset]
- … high dpi won't be visible
- 13:09:40 [lstorset]
- … If the ua knows which image is biggest, it can just fetch that, ignoring hints
- 13:10:16 [lstorset]
- Marcos1: I don't understand the ex. If I had a 10x img, how do I tell it to use that for printing?
- 13:10:48 [lstorset]
- odinho: An even bigger picture
- 13:10:49 [lstorset]
- ?
- 13:11:16 [lstorset]
- … The 10x img won't be downloaded by desktop and mobile browser
- 13:11:35 [lstorset]
- … Proposed algorithm won't take anything bigger than it's at
- 13:12:09 [lstorset]
- marcos: Want something between mega-quality an dlow quality. (Bit of a nitpick)
- 13:12:46 [lstorset]
- … Maybe not a disconnect, but different approach for design perspective. Designers are used to pixel-level control. Maybe not ideal, but here thye do have to give up control.
- 13:12:54 [lstorset]
- … <picture> gives absolute control, srcset hints
- 13:13:29 [lstorset]
- … The risk I see in the future is that srcset gets used, devs notice that when scaling window, this hint is not responded to.
- 13:13:42 [odinho_]
- q+
- 13:13:48 [Zakim]
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- 13:13:48 [lstorset]
- … "My image is not showing. I'm going back to javascript"
- 13:13:52 [odinho_]
- q+
- 13:14:15 [lstorset]
- … devs might use what they perceive works
- 13:14:23 [hober]
- ack odinho_
- 13:14:39 [lstorset]
- odinho: note: we now have a queue
- 13:14:52 [Marcos]
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- 13:14:55 [lstorset]
- … I think if there's an easier solution, then some people reverting to JS is ok
- 13:15:02 [lstorset]
- … We can't really stop that, not even now
- 13:15:23 [lstorset]
- … ppl are doing crazy stuff on the web. That's how it is and works. But most pages don't go crazy in every part of th epage
- 13:15:43 [hober]
- q+
- 13:15:47 [lstorset]
- … As long as the responsive solution is easier than JS, most people will use the easy way out.
- 13:15:58 [lstorset]
- … Unless extremely interested, and those ppl will do whatever anyway.
- 13:15:59 [odinho_]
- ack hober
- 13:16:18 [lstorset]
- hober: These features aren't being used in isolation.
- 13:16:27 [lstorset]
- … People can do something exotic in 20% case
- 13:16:30 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-respimg-minutes.html odinho_
- 13:16:53 [lstorset]
- … Also, Many of respimg challenges can be addressed with other platform features: CSS filters and shaders, svg … …
- 13:17:03 [lstorset]
- … Scope of the problem here is limited to bitmap imgs
- 13:17:23 [hober]
- ack hober
- 13:17:27 [lstorset]
- … We might do authors a disservice by designing something that they use instead of other, omore suitable features
- 13:17:33 [Cyril]
- I agree with hober
- 13:18:00 [lstorset]
- krit: You said Authors will prefer <picture> over srcset, is that […] CG
- 13:18:26 [lstorset]
- Marcos: CG has express preferences and requirements. Not prescriptive of a particular solution.
- 13:18:38 [lstorset]
- … want to make cool apps and please users
- 13:18:42 [odinho_]
- q?
- 13:18:44 [lstorset]
- krit1: Have prioritiy list?
- 13:18:46 [Javi]
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- 13:18:49 [vhardy]
- q+
- 13:18:51 [lstorset]
- marcos: Look at website
- 13:19:01 [lstorset]
- … are using RFC keywords
- 13:19:09 [Travis]
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- 13:19:25 [lstorset]
- vhardy: a step back: CSS spec addresses multi-resolutions
- 13:19:41 [lstorset]
- … these are semantic images and how to describe them
- 13:19:50 [lstorset]
- … Have you had feedback from a11y people?
- 13:19:59 [lstorset]
- … Problem halfway between semantic and presentation
- 13:20:15 [odinho_]
- ack vhardy
- 13:20:28 [Norbert]
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- 13:20:40 [Travis]
- q+
- 13:20:45 [lstorset]
- Marcos: Not specifically. Sent to HTML group where a11y is well-represented. Feedback from various people. Haven't gotten explicit feedback from more than from those in the CG. We are now seeking more.
- 13:20:55 [lstorset]
- … srcset bypasses the problem by just extending <img>
- 13:21:13 [lstorset]
- ??b: Not just a question of semantics and whether img in CSS or HTML
- 13:21:15 [Marcos]
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- 13:21:29 [lstorset]
- … Big difference is that HTML is content, can change day to day/minute to minute. CSs is constant and cacheable
- 13:21:42 [lstorset]
- … if you start putting content imgs in css, can no longer cache effectively.
- 13:21:54 [hober]
- RRSAgent, make logs public
- 13:22:02 [lstorset]
- … re: prefetching: Solution must work with preloader
- 13:22:17 [lstorset]
- … e.g. WebKit's preload scanner
- 13:22:20 [lstorset]
- … currently it does
- 13:22:31 [lstorset]
- [demo]
- 13:23:33 [lstorset]
- … demo prepared by CG
- 13:23:52 [lstorset]
- said the above
- 13:24:15 [lstorset]
- yoav: Set of imgs: mobile img, wide mobile, desktop, hi-res, fallback
- 13:24:15 [odinho_]
- s/??b/yoav/
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- 13:24:51 [kawada]
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- 13:24:59 [lstorset]
- … Added 2s CSS fetch time to this case
- 13:25:13 [lstorset]
- … only single wide mobile image is being preloaded before rendering kicks in
- 13:25:29 [lstorset]
- … problem with current prototype is that fallback img doesn't get preloaded, only when parsed
- 13:25:34 [lstorset]
- … a WIP
- 13:26:23 [lstorset]
- … prototype does not react to resizing event, but once resized, the right source should be chosen
- 13:26:31 [lstorset]
- MArcos: Prototype is at least functional
- 13:26:42 [lstorset]
- … not ideal, not how we envision, but making inroads
- 13:26:48 [lstorset]
- … Just To play with idaes
- 13:26:59 [hober]
- The srcset attribute is currently specified in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/embedded-content-1.html#the-img-element and http://dev.w3.org/html5/srcset/ and comments are welcome on whatwg@whatwg.org and public-html-comments@w3.org; please email with your thoughts & suggestions.
- 13:27:04 [lstorset]
- … Want to look at hwhole problem space to find solutions. Quite helpful to have this discussion here.
- 13:27:24 [lstorset]
- … Understanding from perspective of community and browser vendors. Hopefully those weilll become one and the same.
- 13:27:35 [lstorset]
- odinho: 80%/20% concept is important
- 13:27:56 [lstorset]
- … We also need to look at those UCs. I think quite a lot of our UCs are in the 20% case
- 13:28:20 [lstorset]
- … Need something really easy and nice for 80%, but 20 % should be there too
- 13:28:23 [lstorset]
- …maybe later
- 13:28:27 [Marcos]
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- 13:29:11 [lstorset]
- yoav: not sure which are 80 % and which 20% for you, but re: preloading, all current respimg hacks suffer from lack of cacheing, disable prefetching or fetch twice
- 13:29:31 [lstorset]
- Travis: How does each proposal address art direction UC?
- 13:29:37 [lstorset]
- … Multiple copies on the server?
- 13:29:40 [lstorset]
- Marcos: yes
- 13:29:51 [lstorset]
- hober: Most cases you serve one asset and clip with CSS
- 13:30:10 [lstorset]
- Marcos: As long as you have srcset you can apply CSS to it.
- 13:30:16 [lstorset]
- [missed a question]
- 13:30:25 [odinho_]
- q?
- 13:30:27 [odinho_]
- ack Travis
- 13:30:28 [lstorset]
- Marcos: ONce you have content, you can clip with CSS
- 13:30:40 [lstorset]
- ??a: Must work without CSS
- 13:30:50 [lstorset]
- (time's up)
- 13:30:56 [lstorset]
- chaals: no, you're over the time!
- 13:31:13 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-respimg-minutes.html odinho_
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- 13:43:58 [Marcos1]
- +q
- 13:50:04 [odinho_]
- ack Marcos1
- 13:50:08 [odinho_]
- ack Marcos
- 13:50:24 [odinho_]
- Title: Responsive Images
- 13:51:03 [odinho_]
- Date: Halloween
- 13:51:12 [Marcos1]
- :)
- 13:51:37 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-respimg-minutes.html odinho_
- 13:53:01 [Marcos1]
- topic: Responsive Images\
- 13:54:47 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-respimg-minutes.html odinho_
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- 14:03:00 [odinho_]
- RRSAgent: stop