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12:38:04 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-respimg-irc
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12:42:29 <vhardy> Are the slides available on-line?
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12:42:56 <lstorset> Art direction use case: crop image differently depending on how much space you have.
12:42:57 <lstorset> Design breakpoints: You get pixelation or JPEG artifacts at certain points. Designers adapt the design to different breakpoints and adapt the images to that.
12:43:01 <Cyril> RRSAgent, make logs public
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12:43:24 <lstorset> [goals]
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12:44:01 <lstorset> On printed documents, half-toned pictures look bad, while text is crisp
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12:44:45 <lstorset> In print, communicating with color is meaningless
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12:45:19 <lstorset> can't read a chart with any certainty
12:45:35 <odinho_> ScribeNick: lstorset
12:46:09 <lstorset> More aesthetically pleasing to show different image in portrait and landscape mode
12:46:26 <lstorset> media- and feature-specific responses
12:46:50 <lstorset> Most people won't notice, but good for TVs: When app is scaled up to a dimension where images don't keep up, they get badly pixelated
12:47:01 <lstorset> You want to replace image with higher quality
12:47:20 <lstorset> Another use case is APIs
12:47:30 <lstorset> Canvas, gUM(), MediaCapture
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12:48:02 <lstorset> frex, on IOS 6 and Android you can take panoramas out of the box, 22 Mpix imgs
12:48:11 <lstorset> want to show specific bits to specific devices
12:48:19 <lstorset> Final case: Image formats
12:48:26 <lstorset> WebP, JPEG-XR
12:48:35 <lstorset> Not universally supported, but represents >20% of market
12:48:40 <lstorset> Opera, Chrome
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12:49:00 <lstorset> With Windows 8, JPEG-XR to many clients, depending on uptake of that os
12:49:13 <lstorset> Can't target w/o server-side solution, though
12:49:22 <lstorset> Can't test whether browser supports img. format out of the box
12:49:29 <lstorset> Also for futur eformats
12:49:32 <lstorset> hard to add new formats
12:49:35 <lstorset> to the web
12:49:51 <lstorset> <video> does provide a solution, but not pretty
12:50:06 <lstorset> because codec war happen to be going on, and this solution was a fix
12:50:11 <lstorset> could be useful for imgs as well.
12:50:28 <lstorset> This is what the CG has looked on in the past year
12:50:40 <lstorset> Iterative process to define use cases
12:50:56 <lstorset> Initially heavily focused on bandwidth, but we as CG can't address that.
12:51:17 <lstorset> Responses from e.g. WHATWG with srcset
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12:51:33 <lstorset> <picture> works like <video>
12:51:54 <lstorset> [btw, Marcos1 said all the above]
12:52:04 <lstorset> (code sample for <picture>)
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12:52:27 <lstorset> legacy-browser fallback <img> within <picture>; accessible text
12:52:37 <lstorset> Could throw in ARIA
12:52:41 <lstorset> Questions?
12:52:45 <lstorset> Comments about use cases?
12:53:00 <lstorset> ??: …
12:53:12 <lstorset> Alt has problems, e.g. with accesibility. Can't add markup structures
12:53:16 <lstorset> can't set direction of text
12:53:22 <lstorset> without Unicode points
12:53:30 <lstorset> can't express role of an image
12:53:36 <lstorset> i18n issue is a big one.
12:54:11 <lstorset> ??: Why would you want additional ontent for an image?
12:54:27 <lstorset> hober: image with tabular data would need a table to reprsent it accessibly
12:54:38 <Cyril> q+
12:54:47 <lstorset> vhardy: Slides online?
12:54:59 <lstorset> Marcos1: will be, will fix them after presenting tomorrow
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12:55:21 <lstorset> vhardy: One problem with respimg. preloading, will you address this?
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12:55:23 <lstorset> Marcos1: yes
12:55:55 <lstorset> krit: UC is showing different parts of img depending on screen size is solved by MQ and CSS images 3
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12:56:11 <lstorset> Marcos1: You need <div> tags. We'd like proper markup
12:56:33 <lstorset> ?? telecom: Reminds me of responsive videos/adaptive streaming
12:56:54 <lstorset> Marcos1: Already solved for a while is my impression
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12:57:19 <lstorset> … solutions are tailored for online/offline, don't need to download 20 differet versions
12:57:25 <lstorset> … Also applicable to e-books
12:57:32 <lstorset> … videos in e-books
12:57:55 <lstorset> ??: Maybe things can be ported from videos. Could select image from pbandwidth.
12:58:26 <lstorset> ??b: Videos can be much bigger. Can request ranges over time. 1-2 videos per page. With images, many more.
12:58:29 <shepazu> ♫R-E-S-P-I-M-G, Find out what it means to me, R-E-S-P-I-M-G, Take care, <img> ♫
12:58:37 <lstorset> … re: performance better to send only one request per image
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12:59:12 <lstorset> … if two reqs per img – main problem is fetching.
12:59:31 <lstorset> … If we had format to represent multiple resolutions (jpeg2000), problem is still fetching mechanism
12:59:37 <lstorset> … need to fetch img. header with bytemap
12:59:42 <lstorset> … then the actual content
12:59:58 <lstorset> … May be other solutions, I am working on some things
13:00:20 <lstorset> ?? telecom: SVG is working on mapping and tiling images.
13:00:31 <lstorset> … Changing layouts at the same time?
13:00:41 <lstorset> Marcos1: odinho will cover the latter
13:00:56 <lstorset> chaals: Adapt to videos as they are downloadinng. imgs are single hit.
13:01:15 <lstorset> … if imgs were downloaded in stream, could use video solution
13:01:32 <Cyril> s/?? telecom/Cyril Concolato/
13:01:36 <chaals> [but they aren't]
13:01:48 <lstorset> Dong Yong?: Another UC is stereoscopic displays
13:01:57 <Cyril> s/??/Cyril Concolato/
13:02:21 <lstorset> odinho: Don't want lots of negotiation with server-side, doesn't scale. Want logic in client.
13:02:38 <lstorset> [slides]
13:02:41 <lstorset> Two proposals
13:02:52 <lstorset> Very different at a fundamental level, but somewhat hard to see it.
13:03:12 <lstorset> Many UCs, I'm focusing on having different size pictures and don't want huge pictures under the fold
13:03:39 <lstorset> Difference between srcset and picture, is that scset is shorter, declarative and UA may choose algorithm. The latter is important.
13:03:55 <lstorset> srcset only gives hints, does not tell the ua what to do.
13:04:03 <lstorset> picture is more powerful, has known behavior, not a hint.
13:04:38 <lstorset> … If your user is extremely interested in small image sizes due to expensive data, the page author won't send the user what the user wants
13:05:02 <lstorset> … Why don't authors like MQs?
13:05:19 <lstorset> … Telling ua exactly what to do and how.
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13:05:57 <lstorset> … uas may want to do more smart stuff in the future. A small browser with specific user group may want to behave in another way than what the author thought about.
13:06:09 <lstorset> … 2x–like selection is not enough
13:06:16 <lstorset> … (from <picture>)
13:06:44 <lstorset> … NOt only about swithing resolutions. On my phone a 2x dpi display
13:07:10 <lstorset> … will fetch the big picture, even if small display doesn't benefit from it
13:07:43 <lstorset> … print customization is possible with MQs
13:07:52 <lstorset> [code sample]
13:08:14 <lstorset> <picture> <source media="min-width…">
13:08:19 <lstorset> … same with srcset
13:08:47 <lstorset> … <picture> needs an extra line for media=print
13:08:57 <lstorset> … That's a big problem. Both because it prevents innovation
13:09:10 <lstorset> … e.g. "browsing" with printer
13:09:28 <lstorset> … high dpi won't be visible
13:09:40 <lstorset> … If the ua knows which image is biggest, it can just fetch that, ignoring hints
13:10:16 <lstorset> Marcos1: I don't understand the ex. If I had a 10x img, how do I tell it to use that for printing?
13:10:48 <lstorset> odinho: An even bigger picture
13:10:49 <lstorset> ?
13:11:16 <lstorset> … The 10x img won't be downloaded by desktop and mobile browser
13:11:35 <lstorset> … Proposed algorithm won't take anything bigger than it's at
13:12:09 <lstorset> marcos: Want something between mega-quality an dlow quality. (Bit of a nitpick)
13:12:46 <lstorset> … Maybe not a disconnect, but different approach for design perspective. Designers are used to pixel-level control. Maybe not ideal, but here thye do have to give up control.
13:12:54 <lstorset> … <picture> gives absolute control, srcset hints
13:13:29 <lstorset> … The risk I see in the future is that srcset gets used, devs notice that when scaling window, this hint is not responded to.
13:13:42 <odinho_> q+
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13:13:48 <lstorset> … "My image is not showing. I'm going back to javascript"
13:13:52 <odinho_> q+
13:14:15 <lstorset> … devs might use what they perceive works
13:14:23 <hober> ack odinho_
13:14:39 <lstorset> odinho: note: we now have a queue
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13:14:55 <lstorset> … I think if there's an easier solution, then some people reverting to JS is ok
13:15:02 <lstorset> … We can't really stop that, not even now
13:15:23 <lstorset> … ppl are doing crazy stuff on the web. That's how it is and works. But most pages don't go crazy in every part of th epage
13:15:43 <hober> q+
13:15:47 <lstorset> … As long as the responsive solution is easier than JS, most people will use the easy way out.
13:15:58 <lstorset> … Unless extremely interested, and those ppl will do whatever anyway.
13:15:59 <odinho_> ack hober
13:16:18 <lstorset> hober: These features aren't being used in isolation.
13:16:27 <lstorset> … People can do something exotic in 20% case
13:16:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-respimg-minutes.html odinho_
13:16:53 <lstorset> … Also, Many of respimg challenges can be addressed with other platform features: CSS filters and shaders, svg … …
13:17:03 <lstorset> … Scope of the problem here is limited to bitmap imgs
13:17:23 <hober> ack hober
13:17:27 <lstorset> … We might do authors a disservice by designing something that they use instead of other, omore suitable features
13:17:33 <Cyril> I agree with hober
13:18:00 <lstorset> krit:  You said Authors will prefer <picture> over srcset, is that […] CG
13:18:26 <lstorset> Marcos: CG has express preferences and requirements. Not prescriptive of a particular solution.
13:18:38 <lstorset> … want to make cool apps and please users
13:18:42 <odinho_> q?
13:18:44 <lstorset> krit1: Have prioritiy list?
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13:18:49 <vhardy> q+
13:18:51 <lstorset> marcos: Look at website
13:19:01 <lstorset> … are using RFC keywords
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13:19:25 <lstorset> vhardy: a step back: CSS spec addresses multi-resolutions
13:19:41 <lstorset> … these are semantic images and how to describe them
13:19:50 <lstorset> … Have you had feedback from a11y people?
13:19:59 <lstorset> … Problem halfway between semantic and presentation
13:20:15 <odinho_> ack vhardy
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13:20:40 <Travis> q+
13:20:45 <lstorset> Marcos: Not specifically. Sent to HTML group where a11y is well-represented. Feedback from various people. Haven't gotten explicit feedback from more than from those in the CG. We are now seeking more.
13:20:55 <lstorset> … srcset bypasses the problem by just extending <img>
13:21:13 <lstorset> ??b: Not just a question of semantics and whether img in CSS or HTML
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13:21:29 <lstorset> … Big difference is that HTML is content, can change day to day/minute to minute. CSs is constant and cacheable
13:21:42 <lstorset> … if you start putting content imgs in css, can no longer cache effectively.
13:21:54 <hober> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:22:02 <lstorset> … re: prefetching: Solution must work with preloader
13:22:17 <lstorset> … e.g. WebKit's preload scanner
13:22:20 <lstorset> … currently it does
13:22:31 <lstorset> [demo]
13:23:33 <lstorset> … demo prepared by CG
13:23:52 <lstorset> said the above
13:24:15 <lstorset> yoav: Set of imgs: mobile img, wide mobile, desktop, hi-res, fallback
13:24:15 <odinho_> s/??b/yoav/
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13:24:59 <lstorset> … Added 2s CSS fetch time to this case
13:25:13 <lstorset> … only single wide mobile image is being preloaded before rendering kicks in
13:25:29 <lstorset> … problem with current prototype is that fallback img doesn't get preloaded, only when parsed
13:25:34 <lstorset> … a WIP
13:26:23 <lstorset> … prototype does not react to resizing event, but once resized, the right source should be chosen
13:26:31 <lstorset> MArcos: Prototype is at least functional
13:26:42 <lstorset> … not ideal, not how we envision, but making inroads
13:26:48 <lstorset> … Just To play with idaes
13:26:59 <hober> The srcset attribute is currently specified in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/embedded-content-1.html#the-img-element and http://dev.w3.org/html5/srcset/ and comments are welcome on whatwg@whatwg.org and public-html-comments@w3.org; please email with your thoughts & suggestions.
13:27:04 <lstorset> … Want to look at hwhole problem space to find solutions. Quite helpful to have this discussion here.
13:27:24 <lstorset> … Understanding from perspective of community and browser vendors. Hopefully those weilll become one and the same.
13:27:35 <lstorset> odinho: 80%/20% concept is important
13:27:56 <lstorset> … We also need to look at those UCs. I think quite a lot of our UCs are in the 20% case
13:28:20 <lstorset> … Need something really easy and nice for 80%, but 20 % should be there too
13:28:23 <lstorset> …maybe later
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13:29:11 <lstorset> yoav: not sure which are 80 % and which 20% for you, but re: preloading, all current respimg hacks suffer from lack of cacheing, disable prefetching or fetch twice
13:29:31 <lstorset> Travis: How does each proposal address art direction UC?
13:29:37 <lstorset> … Multiple copies on the server?
13:29:40 <lstorset> Marcos: yes
13:29:51 <lstorset> hober: Most cases you serve one asset and clip with CSS
13:30:10 <lstorset> Marcos: As long as you have srcset you can apply CSS to it.
13:30:16 <lstorset> [missed a question]
13:30:25 <odinho_> q?
13:30:27 <odinho_> ack Travis
13:30:28 <lstorset> Marcos: ONce you have content, you can clip with CSS
13:30:40 <lstorset> ??a: Must work without CSS
13:30:50 <lstorset> (time's up)
13:30:56 <lstorset> chaals: no, you're over the time!
13:31:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-respimg-minutes.html odinho_
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13:43:58 <Marcos1> +q
13:50:04 <odinho_> ack Marcos1
13:50:08 <odinho_> ack Marcos
13:50:24 <odinho_> Title: Responsive Images
13:51:03 <odinho_> Date: Halloween
13:51:12 <Marcos1> :)
13:51:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-respimg-minutes.html odinho_
13:53:01 <Marcos1> topic: Responsive Images\
13:54:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-respimg-minutes.html odinho_
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14:03:00 <odinho_> RRSAgent: stop