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13:33:27 <tidoust> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:33:47 <tidoust> Meeting: Linked Data for Web Developers (TPAC breakout session)
13:33:55 <tidoust> RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:33:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-ld-dev-minutes.html tidoust
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13:35:40 <jfuller> Present+Jim_Fuller
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13:36:34 <FabGandon> Present+FabGandon
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13:36:46 <FabGandon> scribe:cygri
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13:37:09 <daveL> Present+David_Lewis
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13:37:23 <adrianba> rrsagent, make minutes
13:37:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-ld-dev-minutes.html adrianba
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13:37:32 <cygri> ... The feeds come from a variety of content providers.
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13:37:56 <cygri> ... Properties (keys, etc.) used in the feed are not the same across services
13:37:56 <betehess> present+ Alexandre Bertails
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13:38:12 <adrianba> Present+ Adrian_Bateman
13:38:31 <trueg> present+ Sebastian Trueg
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13:38:34 <cygri> ... To keep apps simple, I need things to be represented the same way no matter where they come from
13:38:44 <develD> present+ Norman Richter
13:39:02 <cygri> cygri: present+ Richard Cyganiak
13:39:05 <Ruben> present+ Ruben Verborgh
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13:39:18 <betehess> q?
13:39:30 <betehess> RRSAgent, please generate minutes
13:39:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-ld-dev-minutes.html betehess
13:39:36 <SteveS> Present+ Steve Speiche
13:39:39 <cygri> tidoust: So as an app developer, we wrap the difference between services away in an internal API
13:39:46 <cygri> ... normalising the different feeds
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13:39:53 <betehess> chair: tidoust
13:39:56 <oberger> did he mention semantics ?
13:40:26 <cygri> ... I assume that most web app developers are facing similar situations
13:40:53 <SteveS> s/Speiche/Speicher/
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13:41:08 <cygri> ... So it would be good if content providers did things the same way
13:41:11 <oberger> Present+ Olivier Berger
13:41:19 <cygri> ... Linked data is the response to this problem.
13:41:43 <develD> +1
13:41:54 <develD> (to cygry)
13:42:33 <cygri> ... I see two promising initiatives
13:42:50 <cygri> ... 1. Linked data platform WG
13:42:52 <develD> i'm interested in to put rdf into a feed
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13:43:09 <cygri> ... 2. JSON-LD
13:43:15 <oberger> JSON-LDP :-)
13:43:23 <cygri> ... JSON-LD started as community group, then taken up by RDF-WG
13:43:25 <develD> i'm interested in to use pubsubhubbub with web access control
13:44:12 <cygri> ... JSON-LD allows using JSON as usual, with a little bit of magic (a context) and resolve issues of different representation
13:44:19 <betehess> q+
13:44:46 <cygri> betehess: Alexandre Bertails, W3C Systems team
13:44:53 <cygri> ack betehess
13:45:06 <cygri> ... I had exactly the same issue when starting to work on a new platform at W3C
13:45:20 <cygri> ... had to deal with lots of streams of data, different things talking to each other
13:45:30 <cygri> ... Build lots of APIs, web services?
13:45:44 <cygri> ... Decided to just use RDF
13:46:08 <cygri> ... But at this time there was no clear way of doing this
13:46:38 <cygri> ... At this time, IBM made a submission to W3C, describing one way of handling data
13:46:49 <cygri> ... Statements, HTTP URIs
13:46:59 <oberger> LDP is not ready yet
13:47:13 <cygri> ... JSON is great because works in the browser easily
13:47:36 <cygri> ... Define in one place your terms
13:47:51 <cygri> ... As a developer I still see problems
13:48:54 <cygri> ... SPARQL is great, but with LDP ...
13:49:11 <cygri> [scribe didn't catch the point, betehess may want to add it here]
13:49:43 <oberger> q+
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13:50:21 <cygri> Alexandre Morgeaut: (sp?) JSON-LD vs. JSON Schema?
13:50:53 <Ruben> q+
13:50:57 <betehess> my main point: LDP is great but something is missing to speak about some usual datastructures that one would want to encode in RDF
13:51:00 <cygri> tidoust: JSON Schema is an IETF draft that does for JSON what XML Schema does for XML
13:51:29 <cygri> ... JSON Schema is fairly simple because JSON is simpler than XML
13:51:58 <cygri> ... In JSON-LD you add a “context”; in JSON Schema you define a schema; right now there's no bridge
13:52:10 <cygri> timbl: JSON Schema or XML Schema are in the document structure worl
13:52:11 <betehess> agenda+ rdflib.js and other RDF APIs for WebDevs
13:52:12 <SteveS> @betehess what data structures are you referring?  saying there should be something to help describe the shape of resources
13:52:18 <cygri> ... it's not in the linked data world
13:52:48 <cygri> ... RDF Schema shouldn't be called Schema by the way as it doesn't talk about document structure but structures in the real world
13:52:56 <cygri> ... RDF people haven't addressed doc structure
13:53:05 <cygri> ... There is no RDF graph constraint language
13:53:11 <betehess> SteveS: on the top of my head, I need: set, ordered list, indexed list, map, tuple, options, either (this denotes alternatives)
13:53:21 <cygri> ... Nothing that allows you to say: “If you stick a value in here, then you can submit it there”
13:53:23 <yvesr> well, you could argue SPARQL is one?
13:53:31 <cygri> ... That would be interesting and would allow doing evaluation
13:53:56 <cygri> ivan: (Ivan Herman, W3C Semantic Web Activity Lead)
13:54:04 <cygri> ... We consider data validation
13:54:16 <cygri> ... We are seriously considering a workshop around that issue. No commitment!
13:54:32 <cygri> cygri: Yes, we want that
13:54:42 <cygri> SteveS: Steve Speicher, IBM
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13:55:08 <cygri> ... We created this vocabulary that describes the shape of a resource description
13:55:10 <betehess> q?
13:55:12 <cygri> ... based on SPARQL ASK
13:55:20 <cygri> Arnaud: Arnaud Le Hors, IBM, LDP WG Chair
13:55:38 <oberger> s/Arnaud/ArnaudLH/
13:55:46 <cygri> ... XML selling point was that it doesn't constrain the data model
13:55:47 <yvesr> +1 on SPARQL ASK for validation purposes
13:56:02 <cygri> ... But not really true, we ended up defining a data model to program against
13:56:09 <cygri> ... that's the XML Infoset
13:56:19 <cygri> ... RDF starts with the data model and then a bunch of syntaxes
13:56:32 <cygri> ... JSON-LD gives a JSON-friendly way of interacting with RDF
13:56:37 <oberger> what about Turtle and web developers ?
13:56:39 <cygri> ... So very different from JSON Schema
13:56:56 <oberger> betehess, are we supposed to use the queue ?
13:57:00 <cygri> Alexandre: In JSON Schema you can talk about types of properties (?)
13:57:06 <cygri> ... E.g, saying something is a URL
13:57:12 <SteveS> Some early work on a validation/constraint model for RDF data models http://open-services.net/bin/view/Main/OSLCCoreSpecAppendixA#oslc_ResourceShape_Resource … be interested to what we can do at W3C
13:57:25 <FabGandon> q?
13:57:46 <cygri> tidoust: There are similar things in JSON-LD, you can say that a certain key's vlaue is not taken as string but as IRI
13:57:47 <tidoust> q?
13:57:54 <tidoust> ack oberger
13:57:55 <cygri> oberger: Olivier Berger
13:58:10 <cygri> ... Are we discussing publishing or consuming information?
13:58:15 <cygri> ... Consuming is more difficult
13:58:28 <cygri> ... Especially with different sources. Spam, untrusted information
13:59:06 <cygri> ... Can we show an approach to handling trust of the data you want to consume, based on linked data?
13:59:23 <cygri> q?
13:59:47 <cygri> tidoust: Even with content provider that provide a feed, you may have to reject some content because it's garbage
13:59:52 <betehess> agenda?
14:00:36 <cygri> timbl: In linked data, you can start with a certain person, then look at that person's friends' friends'
14:00:59 <cygri> ... following through the graph, using only data according to that graph
14:01:05 <cygri> ... web of trust
14:01:26 <cygri> ... following a trail of trust through the graph. very natural in the LD world
14:01:27 <tidoust> ack Ruben
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14:01:36 <cygri> Ruben: Ruben Verbough
14:02:01 <cygri> ... Many applications combine styles. Bit of consumption, bit of production
14:02:12 <cygri> ... What's a solution that facilitates this?
14:02:14 <tidoust> q?
14:02:22 <cygri> ... No semantics in JSON, so you only do what you need to do
14:02:39 <betehess> Ruben: today we have no semantics in JSON, you just do what you have to do
14:02:39 <cygri> ... Use cases?
14:03:02 <cygri> tidoust: LDP is read-write
14:03:28 <cygri> ruben: What people do today is just change a bit of JSON around
14:03:40 <cygri> tidoust: Goal is to make life of developers easier
14:03:44 <cygri> q?
14:03:57 <tidoust> zakim, pick up next agendum
14:03:57 <Zakim> I don't understand 'pick up next agendum', tidoust
14:03:59 <cygri> betehess: rdflib.js
14:04:09 <tidoust> zakim, pick next agendum
14:04:10 <Zakim> I don't understand 'pick next agendum', tidoust
14:04:24 <cygri> ... There are RDF libraries
14:04:45 <cygri> ... Let's say I'm a developer who wants to work with RDF as an RDF graph; not as SPARQL result or tree
14:04:57 <cygri> ... Finding a particular node in the graph and follow some links
14:05:03 <yvesr> reminds me of http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-rdf-interfaces-20110510/ - rdf api for javascript
14:05:14 <cygri> ... I want to have an LDP API that just does it for me, just follows some nodes
14:05:22 <cygri> ... and does the LDP GET requests etc
14:05:32 <cygri> ... I'd like timbl to speak about rdflib
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14:06:10 <oberger> what about PHP ?
14:06:13 <cygri> ... on tension between using pure javascript with JSON, or something like rdflib
14:06:29 <Ruben> +1 on jQuery for RDF
14:06:38 <cygri> timbl: We need jQuery for RDF. What's neat about jQuery is that you need very few keystrokes
14:06:48 <cygri> ... not always understandable, but the program shrinks
14:07:06 <betehess> q+ to mention efforts on the server-side
14:07:11 <cygri> ... it abuses JS as much as it can to make things shorter
14:07:37 <tidoust> q?
14:07:39 <oberger> betehess, any URL for rdflib.js ?
14:07:48 <cygri> ... one should be able to do simliar things with RDF
14:07:53 <betehess> oberger: https://github.com/linkeddata/rdflib.js/
14:08:32 <cygri> ... So the thing you create is a quad store
14:08:56 <cygri> ... kb.sym("some URI")
14:09:06 <yvesr> Ruben, not sure what the status of rdfQuery is? https://github.com/alohaeditor/rdfQuery
14:09:09 <cygri> ... and that returns an internal representation of that thing
14:09:16 <betehess> the way I understand timbl's KB, it's a way to speak about trust (you add in your KB what the facts you want to considerer)
14:09:38 <cygri> ... kb.any(x, dc:title) will return the object
14:09:58 <JeniT> yvesr: I haven't worked on it for a long time
14:10:23 <cygri> ... kb.the(x, dc:title) will return only one; runtime error if multiple
14:10:35 <JeniT> yvesr: rdflib.js incorporates some of the code
14:10:49 <cygri> ... kb.each(x,...)
14:11:11 <cygri> ... kb.each(example, title, "foo")
14:11:35 <yvesr> JeniT, cool :) does it integrate with jquery as well? (rdflib.js)
14:11:36 <cygri> ... kb.the(x, the, ..., g) to query a specific graph
14:11:48 <yvesr> JeniT, ah yes, it looks like it
14:11:58 <oberger> is anyone recording timbl ?
14:12:06 <cygri> ... kb.the(s, p, o, g) and g is the document, like GRAPH keyword in SPARQL
14:12:17 <cygri> ... and this might write the result straight back to the graph
14:12:49 <cygri> ... this would be nice and short. can probably be improved
14:13:00 <Ruben> q+
14:13:10 <betehess> q-
14:13:12 <cygri> ... can people make it shorter and quicker? send SPARQL strings to it as people may prefer to write SPARQL?
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14:13:21 <rblin> I implement a small application wich use rdflib.js http://romainblin.net/lifeshare-4.0
14:13:28 <betehess> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-api/
14:13:41 <cygri> ivan: we did try to get something rolling in the API space, and failed
14:13:49 <rblin> Just type the uri per example : http://bblfish.net/people/henry/card#me
14:13:54 <cygri> ... there was a WG where we wanted to define APIs for RDF and RDFa
14:14:05 <rblin> and click to connexion to explore the foaf graph
14:14:08 <betehess> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-api/
14:14:11 <cygri> ... there were two or three drafts published
14:14:33 <cygri> ... but there was no interest from the public in terms of the public in coming and working with us, and no interest from the browser vendors
14:14:44 <cygri> ... so we published them as W3C Notes
14:14:53 <betehess> q+ to mention efforts on the server-side
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14:15:07 <cygri> ... there is a community group to pick this up, but it's dormant
14:15:12 <timbl> RRSAgent, pointer?
14:15:12 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-ld-dev-irc#T14-15-12
14:15:35 <tidoust> ack Ruben
14:15:54 <cygri> Ruben: Big mismatch between the model that programmers use and RDF
14:16:16 <cygri> ... and no borders between objects. it's more fluid
14:16:34 <cygri> ... they prefer working with more enclosed, synchronous objects
14:16:48 <cygri> ivan: JSON-LD work has two sides to it
14:16:54 <cygri> ... 1. it represents RDF graphs
14:17:06 <cygri> ... 2. it also defines a simple API
14:17:24 <betehess> http://json-ld.org/spec/latest/json-ld-api/
14:17:33 <cygri> ... the jury is still out
14:17:45 <betehess> s|http://json-ld.org/spec/latest/json-ld-api/|http://www.w3.org/TR/json-ld-api/|
14:17:48 <tidoust> ack betehess
14:17:48 <Zakim> betehess, you wanted to mention efforts on the server-side
14:18:12 <cygri> betehess: JS is very important, but in my case I also need things server-side
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14:18:35 <cygri> ... for example I want to say, this user can access the resource and this one not. rules for access control
14:18:53 <cygri> ... so if you define APIs, don't stop at the JS
14:19:00 <cygri> oberger: +1 for not restricting to JS
14:19:24 <cygri> tidoust: In the client it's fine if your graph is mutable
14:19:24 <oberger> thx cygri
14:19:39 <Ruben> JS is just a (prominent) example of how people will do things: the issues experienced there will also occur with others
14:19:43 <tidoust> s/tidoust/betehess/
14:19:53 <cygri> ... on the server side, we may need immutable graphs
14:20:03 <oberger> betehess, and we should not restrict to JSON either and think about Turtle
14:20:10 <tidoust> q?
14:20:19 <cygri> sandro: There is DOM which is the standard, then there's jQuery that's a lot better/shorter
14:20:34 <cygri> betehess: DOM is low-level. Like assembly language.
14:20:59 <cygri> ... then there's highlevel stuff, but that's maybe not for W3C
14:21:06 <cygri> timbl: DOM tries to be language-independent
14:21:17 <cygri> ... great in an environment with global symbol table where you compile to C
14:21:33 <cygri> ... but in JS you want short names as everything is locally scoped
14:21:50 <cygri> ... job to do is to optimize for particular languages
14:21:57 <betehess> if people are interested in APIs on the JVM (Java, Scala), I'm the main contributor to https://github.com/w3c/banana-rdf
14:22:03 <cygri> ... JS being an asynchronous environment also changes things
14:22:16 <betehess> q+
14:22:20 <oberger> are we running out of time ?
14:22:26 <tidoust> ack betehess
14:22:36 <cygri> Ruben: People expect JSON to being synchronous, things don't suddenly show up in the JSON tree
14:22:42 <cygri> betehess: [access control]
14:22:58 <cygri> ... group of users identified via URIs
14:23:13 <cygri> ... you may want to fetch data at runtime. This takes time. Where to start?
14:23:29 <cygri> ... Maybe written data is not yet there but only in 10 seconds
14:23:48 <cygri> tidoust: Closing remarks?
14:24:03 <cygri> Norman Richter, Uni Leipzig
14:24:26 <cygri> Norman: Involved with research on PubSubHubbub
14:24:32 <cygri> ... access control on top of that
14:24:55 <cygri> betehess: Talk to Alexandre Passant, he did RDF+PubSubHubbub
14:25:08 <BartvanLeeuwen> RDF in pussubhubbub SparqlPush
14:25:11 <cygri> Alexandre: [OData]
14:25:38 <cygri> ... We were looking into extending OData or having a parallel RDF service
14:25:55 <cygri> ... ideally only one service, with semantic information
14:26:07 <cygri> bhyland: Talk to David Wood
14:26:17 <cygri> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:26:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-ld-dev-minutes.html cygri
14:26:26 <cygri> tidoust: Adjourned!
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14:26:36 <tidoust> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:26:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-ld-dev-minutes.html tidoust
14:26:42 <cygri> present+ timbl
14:26:51 <cygri> present+ ivan
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14:26:54 <cygri> present+ sandro
14:27:01 <cygri> present+ David Wood
14:27:06 <develD> Norman Richter: So my question was to put rdf in a feed and to push it with an access control enabled pubsubhubbub
14:27:06 <cygri> present+ Bernadette Hyland
14:27:13 <cygri> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:27:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-ld-dev-minutes.html cygri
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14:27:23 <develD> thanks
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