IRC log of agile on 2012-10-31

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:36:38 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-agile-irc
12:36:50 [annevk]
Steve: W3C Process Agility
12:37:02 [annevk]
Steve: specification development sometimes took a long time. Was the Process a problem?
12:37:21 [annevk]
Steve: we got in the order of 27 proposals, filtered down to 12 discussed in May
12:37:32 [annevk]
Steve: I'm here to report on the actions the AB thought appropriate
12:37:45 [hsivonen]
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12:37:53 [annevk]
Steve: We found the Process was not most of the problem
12:38:08 [annevk]
Steve: methods could be implemented within the Process to make things more workable
12:38:23 [annevk]
Topic: Proposed Process Changes
12:38:51 [annevk]
Steve: Consider testing early in the process would be appropriate.
12:39:12 [annevk]
Steve: The Process is mostly for new people. To let them know what to think about what it takes to get to REC
12:39:49 [annevk]
Steve: tests are not the only way to show things are interoperable. Showing a feature is implemented in multiple implementations and the bug log on those features is reasonable is another way of demonstrating.
12:39:54 [dbaron]
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12:39:58 [annevk]
Steve: the HTML WG might use that
12:40:21 [annevk]
... There were a couple of things that seemed to be artificial restrictions that made things more complicated than necessary
12:40:49 [annevk]
... The PR step caused delay and caused confusion with respect to referencing.
12:41:01 [annevk]
... The idea is to clarify that a CR is pretty damn close to REC
12:41:28 [annevk]
... CR is not perfect, but the final tune up to REC is painful and should be less
12:41:34 [annevk]
... painful
12:42:02 [annevk]
... Questions?
12:42:18 [annevk]
... and feedback? Is this adequate?
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12:42:46 [annevk]
dbaron: The CSS WG has the tendency bounce in and out of CR a lot
12:43:00 [annevk]
dbaron: it seems inconvenient to have the AC vote multiple times at CR
12:43:31 [annevk]
Steve: The proposal is the AC would vote once
12:43:58 [annevk]
Steve: with allowance for a requested vote on re-entry if felt necessary
12:45:05 [annevk]
David Filip: The testing recommendation is vague. I wonder if it should be normatively required?
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12:45:20 [annevk]
Steve: what is required is at LC that the WG documents their approach.
12:45:29 [annevk]
... and at CR they establish a plan
12:45:39 [annevk]
... they are at those points not required to have tests
12:46:09 [annevk]
Steve: we want to encourage testing early, but we do not want to require it
12:46:26 [annevk]
Topic: Practices for Agility
12:46:46 [annevk]
Steve: A barrier to getting to LC is resolving dependencies with other WGs
12:47:02 [annevk]
... the idea is to identify those during chartering
12:47:18 [annevk]
... FPWDs are perhaps better developed in CGs
12:47:53 [tpacbot]
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12:47:56 [annevk]
... The W3C has four important events: FPWD (initial patent commitment), LC (more patents), CR (is done), REC (actually done)
12:48:07 [annevk]
... We want to focus on those points as they seem to be gating things
12:48:51 [annevk]
... We are working on making Editor Drafts (EDs) more discoverable
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12:49:10 [annevk]
David Filip: if someone recharters between LC and something else?
12:49:13 [annevk]
Steve: should not matter
12:49:21 [annevk]
Steve: patents are attached to documents, not the charter
12:49:39 [jcverdie]
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12:50:45 [annevk]
Mike: About making chartering more agile. Using a CG to produce a draft or starting with a SUBMISSION is better. Open ended discussion is painful.
12:51:00 [annevk]
s/Mike:/Mike Champion:/
12:51:12 [annevk]
Steve: yes, that would avoid laywering and allow for technical discussion
12:51:26 [annevk]
Steve: documents have multiple audiences
12:51:36 [annevk]
Steve: implementors want latest; reviewers might want latest
12:51:51 [annevk]
Steve: TR/ only gives snapshots; make the EDs more accessible
12:52:03 [annevk]
... by linking them from TR/
12:52:36 [annevk]
Mike Champion: does it matter where they are published?
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12:52:57 [annevk]
Steve: The Google/Bing result is terrible for non-TR/ links
12:53:25 [annevk]
dbaron: New engineers at browsers have implemented old versions of a spec
12:54:39 [annevk]
Steve: if you do testing early, you get specifications adopted faster
12:55:16 [annevk]
... specification editors seem to appreciate this more as well as tests help them guide their writing and understanding
12:56:28 [dbaron]
Steve shows http://test.csswg.org/annotations/css21/
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12:57:28 [annevk]
Steve: The CSS WG has an annotated version of CSS 2.1 that identifies the tests for it
12:57:57 [annevk]
Steve: and allows running to run tests for the browser used
12:58:23 [annevk]
... it has section-by-section information as well
12:59:11 [annevk]
Steve: this is an example of integrating testing
12:59:30 [annevk]
Steve: as well as tests, integrating issues would be good too
12:59:44 [jeff]
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13:01:09 [annevk]
Steve: both WebApps and CSS develop small specifications
13:01:11 [jeff]
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13:01:22 [annevk]
Steve: modularizing also creates problems
13:01:28 [annevk]
Steve: such as making sure it's coherent
13:01:50 [annevk]
Topic: Are Supergroups the Solution or the Problem[?]
13:02:04 [annevk]
Steve: HTML, CSS, and WebApps are supergroups
13:02:12 [annevk]
Steve: patent commitment is made to the WG
13:02:30 [annevk]
Steve: protection is for all IPR of the WG
13:03:05 [annevk]
dbaron: I think the common case is that a Member refuses to grant IPR for a small work item
13:03:48 [annevk]
Steve: A perception is that these groups add work faster than they output it
13:04:07 [annevk]
[The scribe missed something above and therefore what dbaron said does not quite make sense in the context of the minutes. Apologies.]
13:04:17 [jeff]
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13:04:50 [dbaron]
What Steve said before was talk about small group spinoffs, and mention a motivation being that somebody whose input was important refused to join the supergroup for IPR reasons
13:04:56 [annevk]
Steve: Large groups create problems for AC review and there's a question about whether or not process is being made.
13:05:11 [annevk]
Topic: The Impact of the Paten[t] Policy
13:05:58 [MichaelC_]
q+ to relate managing issues with modularization, supergroups vs group spawning, and charter agility
13:06:01 [annevk]
Steve: The Patent Policy (PP) is not the problem.
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13:06:26 [annevk]
Topic: What is the AB Missing?
13:07:14 [annevk]
Michael Cooper: I see the case for modularization, but it can be difficult to manage. The PFWG has a large problem with reviewing the incoming work.
13:07:25 [annevk]
Michael Cooper: The PFWG gets blown away by the snowball
13:08:05 [annevk]
Michael Cooper: The more you modularize the more you make it difficult to separate out IPR concerns. The opposite is group spawning, but then you miss having everyone in the same room for closely related specifications.
13:08:36 [annevk]
... The charter has little wiggle room
13:09:00 [annevk]
... The charter is too formal as it's likely to change in response to concerns
13:09:23 [annevk]
Mike Champion: The PP drives these suboptimal things
13:09:53 [annevk]
... making it applicable to a specification rather than WG might make things more tangible
13:10:41 [annevk]
Steve: Maybe supergroups should give some kinds of heads up? [Did I get that right?]
13:10:54 [annevk]
Michael Coopier: We'd need to not miss those LCs then
13:11:20 [annevk]
Steve: I'm trying to see if there's a mechanism that works for both sides. I think it's important for WGs to have interaction with other WGs; either scheduled or unscheduled
13:12:00 [annevk]
Daniel Glazman: The HyperText Coordination Group is mostly useless. It's difficult to find the reasons why, but it does not work well.
13:12:27 [annevk]
Daniel Glazman: Make status reports and participation mandatory
13:12:57 [annevk]
[The scribe thinks that forcing people to do boring things is not going to work.]
13:13:22 [annevk]
Steve: We've been thinking about a notion of dashboards, to coordinate these kind of things
13:13:31 [annevk]
Daniel Glazman: They're not intrusive enough
13:13:50 [annevk]
Daniel Glazman: Email you're almost forced to read
13:14:05 [annevk]
[Scribe actively filters his email...]
13:14:42 [annevk]
s/Coopier/Cooper/
13:15:24 [annevk]
Michael Cooper: The audience of who needs reviews needs to be public; important to get public engagement
13:15:56 [annevk]
David Baron: I took something different from what Daniel was saying than what he meant.
13:16:42 [annevk]
David Baron: The HyperText Coordination Groups (HGCs) does not work well because you pass information via liason and that does not work well
13:16:54 [annevk]
s/liason/liaison/
13:17:18 [annevk]
Steve: An advantage of the HCG is that it is tracked
13:17:32 [annevk]
Henri Sivonen: I think one of the bugs with the HCG is that it's Member-confidential
13:17:40 [annevk]
David Baron: I think it's public now
13:17:52 [annevk]
[Multiple people confirm it's public.]
13:18:18 [annevk]
[Secret stuff is being said. I guess you had to be here.]
13:18:49 [annevk]
Steve: The secret stuff is a problem of the past.
13:19:15 [annevk]
Steve: I'd like to thank you all for your time
13:19:32 [annevk]
Michael Cooper: What is going to happen with the output here?
13:19:48 [annevk]
Steve: The AB is represented by three people here and the AC will look at this as well
13:19:52 [annevk]
Steve: it will not on the floor
13:19:59 [annevk]
RRSAgent, make minutes
13:19:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/31-agile-minutes.html annevk
13:20:11 [annevk]
RRSAgent, make logs public
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