07:36:07 RRSAgent has joined #webrtc 07:36:07 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webrtc-irc 07:36:09 RRSAgent, make logs world 07:36:09 Zakim has joined #webrtc 07:36:11 Zakim, this will be RTC 07:36:11 ok, trackbot, I see UW_Web RTC()3:00AM already started 07:36:12 Meeting: Web Real-Time Communications Working Group Teleconference 07:36:12 Date: 30 October 2012 07:36:17 Zakim, call rhone_1 07:36:17 ok, dom; the call is being made 07:36:19 +Rhone_1 07:36:34 AndyHutton_ has joined #webrtc 07:36:53 -Rhone_1 07:37:08 Zakim, call rhone_1 07:37:08 ok, dom; the call is being made 07:37:09 +Rhone_1 07:38:38 Topic: Identity 07:39:09 schuki has joined #webrtc 07:39:35 DanD has joined #webrtc 07:39:54 ScribeNick: DanD 07:40:02 stephane has joined #webrtc 07:40:14 Topic: Identity 07:40:43 hbang has joined #WebRTC 07:41:53 jyp has joined #webrtc 07:43:48 ekr presenting http://www.w3.org/2011/04/webrtc/wiki/images/f/f2/Idp-issues.pdf 07:44:21 nsakai has joined #webrtc 07:44:22 markus has joined #webrtc 07:44:47 kensaku has joined #webrtc 07:45:14 juberti has joined #webrtc 07:45:35 Hidetoshi has joined #webrtc 07:45:35 adambe has joined #webrtc 07:48:16 christine_ has joined #webrtc 07:48:26 Comus has joined #webrtc 07:48:43 ekr: Three proposals on the list 07:49:25 .. Proposal 1 - Identity provided by gUM (Thompson) 07:50:44 s/Thompson/Thomson/ 07:51:34 +??P1 07:52:17 timpanton has joined #webrtc 07:52:52 .. Proposal 2: Prompt user after call (Ohlsson) 07:53:24 byungjung has joined #webrtc 07:53:25 nsakai has joined #webrtc 07:54:45 ..Proposal 3 - Site permissions with identity display (EKR) 07:55:03 SungOk_You has joined #webrtc 07:55:39 anant has joined #webrtc 07:56:54 Ruinan has joined #webrtc 07:56:54 .. Proposals 1 and 2 require the user to explicitly assent to identity 07:57:30 fluffy: How does the person answering the call who's calling before answering the call? 07:58:39 dan_romascanu has joined #webrtc 07:58:40 tomoyuki has joined #webrtc 07:59:15 ekr: Long term consent 07:59:23 Mathew: I like to setup the video selection and enable the camera and the identity makes it complicated 07:59:38 .. easy to be done with proposal 1 08:00:15 Mathew: We need to make sure the browser does not get into the address book without user's consent 08:01:12 kensaku has joined #webrtc 08:01:30 nsakai has joined #webrtc 08:01:42 jmarcon has joined #webrtc 08:02:16 hta: I'm not happy with proposal 2 08:02:35 hiro has joined #webrtc 08:02:46 .. when the green light go on 08:02:54 kotakagi has joined #webrtc 08:03:02 .. I have an origin that is not bound to an identity but later get's bound 08:03:08 sakkuru has joined #webrtc 08:03:24 ekr: Proposal 3 is a hybrid of 1 and 2 08:04:38 a 08:04:57 nsakai has joined #webrtc 08:05:54 yoshiaki has joined #webrtc 08:06:26 Proposal 4 is a hybrid of 1 and 3 08:06:59 dom: I don't think we should use a null value for a parameter with a different meaning as a parameter not being set 08:07:10 ekr: I'm happy to use a different parameter name for option3 08:07:46 gmandyam has joined #webrtc 08:09:27 justin: There's a difference between site having access to the camera and site recording 08:09:36 sakih has joined #webrtc 08:09:49 nsakai has joined #webrtc 08:10:04 dom: We're focusing too much on the green light where mobile devices don't have a green light 08:10:33 martin: the idea is to have an indicator in the chrome 08:10:56 justin: there's confusion about what the green light means 08:11:15 s/don't have a green light/don't have a green light; I want to make sure we don't build security on top of hardware indicators that are not always available/ 08:12:21 fluffy: we are adding to the confusion 08:12:40 nsakai has joined #webrtc 08:13:05 ekr: the green light (the indicator) is supposed to be on once the camera is accessed 08:14:05 sakkuru has joined #webrtc 08:14:45 hta: there is a issue when applications via USB can access the green light 08:14:59 martin: if it's on can drain battery without sending any data 08:15:39 nsakai has joined #webrtc 08:16:35 fluffy: expectation is that when camera goes on light goes on 08:17:21 burn has joined #webrtc 08:18:18 +[IPcaller] 08:18:22 nsakai has joined #webrtc 08:18:32 Wonsuk has joined #webrtc 08:19:45 ekr: going over the proposed rule 08:21:33 dom: I'm a little bit confused. if the indicator is in the chrome I won't see it if I switch to a different app (on a mobile phone) 08:22:33 ekr: we should 08:23:10 s/phone)/phone); how does that affect the reliability of granting access to a camera to a peer/ 08:23:16 matthew has joined #webrtc 08:23:16 Mathew: will we be able to check for long term permissions? 08:23:18 nsakai has joined #webrtc 08:25:32 .. action on ekr to write something up on tainted streams 08:25:51 hta: suggest camera access as a topic for the other issues later today 08:26:16 Topic: API for removing streams 08:26:45 hta: presenting what "remove" means 08:28:07 nsakai has joined #webrtc 08:29:19 -??P1 08:30:06 fluffy: we should not look at index 08:31:24 hta: either we don't remove the streams and you have a fixed index 08:31:58 adam: if we reference it by object even if it's removed from the array I can still find it by object reference 08:32:18 massimo_ has joined #webrtc 08:32:26 dom: this is what DOM is doing 08:32:56 nsakai has joined #webrtc 08:33:12 dsinger has joined #webrtc 08:34:20 hta: in this proposal I have two methods to access: one by returning all and iterate another one by name 08:34:25 fluffy: why are we handing developers indexes when they can get them by name 08:36:11 dom: using index is not a bad thing as long as it doesn't change 08:36:21 adam: I don't think you want to have the sequence because developer can store the sequence and can change later 08:39:06 s/as long as it doesn't change/as long as you don't assume that what it refers to is immutable/ 08:39:07 .. the msid draft has already a proposal how to name things 08:39:20 hta: we need to decide if we want to get rid of the indexes and go with the labels 08:39:38 Mathew: legacy devices might not label 08:40:03 Adam: we should go with ID's for both streams and tracks 08:40:33 hta: we need somebody to write a proposal 08:40:50 there seemed to be general agreement with Adam's suggestion, namely assigning ids to every stream and track and having label used only for human-readable text 08:40:51 ACTION: Adam to update APIs to use mutable arrays of streams in peerconnection with ids 08:40:51 Created ACTION-59 - Update APIs to use mutable arrays of streams in peerconnection with ids [on Adam Bergkvist - due 2012-11-06]. 08:41:44 hta: presenting API requirements 08:42:08 nsakai has joined #webrtc 08:42:15 Topic: DTMF 08:42:58 fluffy has joined #webrtc 08:43:17 SungOk_You has joined #webrtc 08:44:32 massimo has joined #webrtc 08:44:43 .. proposal to have two new functions on RTCPeerConnection 08:47:58 justin: I like the idea of having the callback with tone and duration 08:49:02 Martin: the proposal was to have a track (something that looks like a track) 08:49:05 nsakai has joined #webrtc 08:49:13 hta: what's the factory for that track? 08:49:21 Martin: you construct it 08:50:18 -[IPcaller] 08:51:16 hta: now you need to the go from the track to the peerConnection 08:51:37 Martin: you get the track from getUserMedia, you decorate it for DTMF and attach to the peerConnection 08:51:58 nsakai has joined #webrtc 08:52:47 Martin: on the receiving end it's simple 08:53:06 nsakai has joined #webrtc 08:53:21 hta: If I would be to implement where do I reliably place this? 08:53:31 Fluffy: How do you know to negociate for DTMF? 08:54:06 .. another one is long tones use cases 08:54:25 justin: you can emulate this with the proposal 08:54:58 fluffy: I"m fine with getting rid of the long tones 08:55:35 Stefanh: I like the proposal. I'd like more control on the outgoing part 08:56:19 burn: I think you can have the DTMF track be created by the peerConnection 08:57:58 nsakai has joined #webrtc 08:59:11 justin: I support hta's proposal 08:59:42 ekr has joined #webrtc 09:02:15 Jim_Barnett has joined #webrtc 09:03:10 nsakai has joined #webrtc 09:03:24 hta: I'll modify the proposal to incorporate burn's suggestion 09:05:16 Topic: Other business 09:05:44 hta: reviewing the collected items for discussion 09:08:03 nsakai has joined #webrtc 09:08:12 RRSAgent, draft minutes 09:08:12 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webrtc-minutes.html dom 09:08:38 Topic: What Triggers Candidate Fetching 09:09:25 Topic: What triggers candidate fetching 09:10:08 Mathew: Use case is when a web page displays "call agent" . I don't want all the visitors of the page to use my turn servers 09:10:53 ekr: This should not be a problem 09:12:56 nsakai has joined #webrtc 09:13:34 hta: I don't understand why the use case is not satisfied 09:15:44 Martin: you want to load the page and show as quickly as possible 09:15:52 justin: we have two mechanisms to control the candidates gathering 09:17:04 Justin: you can do that now 09:17:16 +[IPcaller] 09:17:35 -[IPcaller] 09:17:45 Martin: this brings us to changing constraints on the fly 09:19:54 massimo has joined #webrtc 09:20:46 fluffy: we want to preallocate now were' talking about how to do it in the API design 09:20:57 justin: you would know what you need if you call setLocal 09:21:32 fluffy: you can optimistically assume two 09:24:15 nsakai has joined #webrtc 09:24:20 Mathew: you got two use cases: the conference model where you call in to a conference or the public page. We need to support both efficiently 09:25:02 +[IPcaller] 09:26:34 fluffy: can we try to make a proposal 09:27:16 -[IPcaller] 09:27:52 .. it's less elegant but should work 09:28:14 justin: we can do this using setLocal 09:28:37 fluffy: I have a different proposal. Have a constraint that defines the preallocated streams 09:29:13 ekr: it's fine for me 09:29:52 hta: is this sort of creating a pool? 09:29:59 fluffy: yes 09:30:54 hyun has joined #webrtc 09:31:10 RRSAgent, draft minutes 09:31:10 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webrtc-minutes.html dom 09:31:22 proposal is to add a new constraint preallocateCandidates, which takes an integer value that defaults to zero. setting this to any other value through the constructor or updateIce triggers the filling of a candidate set pool of that size. final actions are taken on setLocalDescription 09:31:31 hta: decision to go with the proposal to create a pool 09:32:37 RRSAgent, draft minutes 09:32:37 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webrtc-minutes.html dom 09:32:56 yoshiaki has joined #webrtc 09:37:29 - +44.190.881.aaaa 09:39:18 AndyHutton_ has left #webrtc 09:42:36 +??P0 09:51:00 Hidetoshi has joined #webrtc 09:51:58 tomoyuki has joined #webrtc 09:55:35 AndyH has joined #webrtc 09:56:13 tomoyuki has joined #webrtc 09:56:14 timpanton has joined #webrtc 09:57:43 tomoyuki has joined #webrtc 09:59:51 tomoyuki has joined #webrtc 10:01:05 tomoyuki has joined #webrtc 10:02:42 ekr has joined #webrtc 10:06:44 juberti has joined #webrtc 10:06:51 cullen will take an action to follow up on the last issue (see my last item starting with "proposal") 10:07:13 Next topic: when is SDP sendable 10:07:29 tomoyuki has joined #webrtc 10:08:08 When do we know if we have all streams? 10:08:14 Topic: When is SDP sendable? 10:08:34 my proposal for this was that the success callback would fire, at which time the array^Wcollection would include all the streams 10:09:53 cullen: this doesn't let you know whether a stream was added or removed. 10:10:52 matthew: that doesn't work in all cases anyway; imagine calling setRemoteDescription twice, the second time before all callbacks have been received. 10:11:20 cullen: on all functions that have callbacks, you can't call the function again before the callbacks have dispatched. 10:11:35 nsakai has joined #webrtc 10:11:52 Comus has joined #webrtc 10:12:32 juberti: this would be setLocal, setRemote, createOffer, createAnswer. 10:12:40 ekr: what about getUserMedia? 10:12:54 Hidetoshi has joined #webrtc 10:12:55 … should be possible to ask for multiple cameras. 10:14:15 juberti: I have a proposal to handle the getUserMedia case. 10:14:40 adambe: what about onaddtrack events? 10:15:06 adambe: do we need onaddtrack when a stream is added? 10:15:31 cullen: I read the spec, I think it says any time the remote side adds a track, you need a callback. 10:15:44 kensaku has joined #webrtc 10:15:59 Ruinan has joined #webrtc 10:16:01 adambe: there's also an onunmute event on tracks too. 10:16:06 hbang has joined #WebRTC 10:17:02 adambe: how about only onaddtrack only when a stream is updated, as opposed to added/removed? 10:17:07 juberti: I like that proposal. 10:17:10 cullen: I don't. 10:17:24 martin: Let's address the stream callbacks first. 10:17:32 hta: Let's do that. 10:17:58 martin: setLocal, setRemote, createOffer, createAnswer should all be non-reentrant. 10:18:10 hyun has joined #webrtc 10:18:23 byungjung has joined #webrtc 10:18:38 proposal is that that the createOffer / createAnser, setLocal, setRemote, you can not call the same function again if the callback from a previous invocation has not returned 10:19:13 yoshiaki has joined #webrtc 10:19:15 yoshiaki has joined #webrtc 10:19:20 martin: during time between setRemote and callback, exceptions should occur on any of these 4 APIs. 10:20:17 martin: when you call setRemote, stuff will happen, but the browser will return to stable state multiple times. 10:20:22 On set remote, you install all the stuff, then does does callback for onaddstream for each stream, then does callback with null to on add stream, then it call the success callback for set remote 10:21:00 dom: do any other APIs do this? 10:21:17 jmarcon has joined #webrtc 10:21:19 anant: in XHR, some things are disallowed while it is running. 10:21:48 martin: during state transitions, no other transitions are allowed. 10:22:03 anant: you can't call open on the same XHR twice. 10:22:54 stefan: might this introduce a timing problem? some browsers are slower than others? 10:23:02 dom: I don't think so 10:23:37 cullen: I would guess that this is an atomic change, and it takes some time - I would look at some API that has similar needs 10:23:43 dom: maybe IndexedDB 10:24:10 jimbarnett: call should block instead of throwing exception 10:24:56 adambe: if you get onrenegotiationneeded, that could cause a problem 10:25:01 kotakagi has joined #webrtc 10:25:11 cullen: onrenegotiationneeded fires after the success/error callback, if needed. 10:25:33 massimo has joined #webrtc 10:25:39 martin: queuing of calls could work OK. 10:26:34 cullen: one lock across all 4 APIs. 10:28:03 The way most UI APIs deal with this is to say that those functions can only be called on the 'main' thread 10:28:14 hta: proposal is: when calling one of these APIs - check args, throw exception if needed, check lock, do work or queue task if needed. 10:28:56 if the callback is also invoked on the same thread, this makes the thing queue naturally. 10:29:24 hta: nobody argued for throwing an exception instead of queueing. 10:29:40 hta: anent to write up the details here. 10:29:52 ACTION: Anant to write up queuing mechanism for set{Remote,Local}Description, create{Offer,Answer} 10:29:52 Created ACTION-60 - Write up queuing mechanism for set{Remote,Local}Description, create{Offer,Answer} [on Anant Narayanan - due 2012-11-06]. 10:30:07 callbacks have to be called on the same thread, there is only one thread 10:30:26 juberti: when does onaddstream fire? 10:30:31 So how could you get re-entrancy ? 10:31:12 hta: onaddstream fires after installation is complete, but before the success callback has been dispatched. 10:31:28 re-entrancy applies only in the sense that the actions associated with the methods take time and so could (conceivably, without these measures) operate in parallel 10:31:48 burn: no add stream for failures, naturally 10:31:52 the actions occur on browser-internal threads or "in the network" 10:32:16 ok. got it. 10:32:52 juberti: when is pc.remoteStreams updated? 10:34:01 Alan has joined #webrtc 10:34:47 adambe: before the first onaddstream callback is fired, remoteStreams will be fully up to date with the changes. 10:35:00 derf: 10:35:26 cullen: stream names are confusing. 10:35:41 derf: event callbacks need to change to be less confusing. 10:35:53 ACTION: derf to write up proposal for new stream event names. 10:35:53 Sorry, couldn't find derf. You can review and register nicknames at . 10:36:12 ACTION: Tim to write up proposal for new stream event names. 10:36:12 Sorry, couldn't find Tim. You can review and register nicknames at . 10:36:45 ACTION: Timothy to write up proposal for new stream event names. 10:37:19 Topic: when is SDP sendable? 10:37:48 matthew: if SessionDescription is 3264 SDP, that SDP must always be 3264-compliant. 10:38:21 cullen: if you can't do local candidates, we should return an error when trying to write SDP. 10:38:27 matthew: will trickle update 3264? 10:38:38 cullen: I think we'll need to. 10:39:13 matthew: if we're doing trickle, we're going to need to update something. 10:40:09 gape has joined #webrtc 10:40:32 + +44.190.881.aabb 10:41:00 matthew: how do we generate workable SDP when trickling? 10:41:12 matthew: Chrome currently generates broken SDP? 10:41:37 matthew: How do I get valid SDP in the non-trickle case? 10:41:55 cullen: wait for ICE complete callback, then SDP will be fully filled-in. 10:42:54 matthew: but what about the initial setLocal? That SDP isn't fully valid. 10:43:10 juberti: That is just a subset of the trickle case. 10:44:06 matthew: But the SDP still isn't valid. 10:47:58 juberti: We are going to solve this with the trickle ICE I-D. 10:50:26 … and then the rest of the stuff should fall into place. You can call setLocal with an initial "no candidates" SDP, and then gathering commences. 10:51:13 hta: we'll refer this to the IETF rtcweb WG to figure this out, and then we can resume this discussion. 10:51:30 topic: QoS label security 10:51:41 Topic: Security for QoS labels 10:53:37 matthew: Want to see API where packet priorities can be set. 10:54:04 hta: culler's proposal does this - gives 3 levels of priorities. 10:54:52 cullen: API that provides 3, 4, etc levels 10:55:08 matthew: I don't know which one is more important. 10:55:30 matthew: data could be above or below media (gaming, higher, file transfer, lower) 10:56:03 dand: where would this priority be set from an API perspective 10:56:17 stefan: on a track or datachannel. 10:56:31 there was a (currently abandonned) proposal for setPriority on XHR that also had 4 levels FWIW http://ajaxian.com/archives/xmlhttprequest-priority-proposal 10:57:00 matthew: someone needs to write up a proposal for where these things go. 10:57:20 hta: set at initialization, or during the call? 10:57:51 matthew: I think it could be initialization. 10:57:59 yoshiaki has joined #webrtc 10:58:12 dand: once we get this request, we need a confirmation from the browser that it tried to accomplish this. 10:58:17 martin: why? 10:59:15 dand: this request can be fulfilled by going to a policy server. 10:59:38 matthew: I don't care about marking, I just care about the congestion control prioritization 11:02:11 matthew: not all packets will be labeled the same way 11:02:31 kseo2 has joined #webrtc 11:02:34 matthew: either for different streams, or different packets in the same stram 11:02:51 hta: need to set priority levels, and have it per track, and have 3 or 4 levels. 11:03:11 hta: this will set congestion control/queuing in the browser, and setting of QoS is something for further study 11:03:21 matthew: cullen has already written a draft 11:04:02 goran: cullen's draft refers to other drafts 11:04:11 cullen: we will remove that reference. 11:05:11 cullen: we don't want JS to set the diffserv code points, but we do want it to be able to discover them. 11:05:26 kseo2 has joined #webrtc 11:05:27 hta: want mapping from track to 6-tuple? 11:05:50 Action: Cullen to update draft to remove reference. 11:05:50 Created ACTION-61 - Update draft to remove reference. [on Cullen Jennings - due 2012-11-06]. 11:06:03 Action. stefanh to propose priority API. 11:06:53 -??P0 11:07:00 Action: stefanh to propose priority API. 11:07:00 Could not create new action (unparseable data in server response: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xc3 in position 1: ordinal not in range(128)) - please contact sysreq with the details of what happened. 11:07:22 yoshiaki has joined #webrtc 11:07:22 Action: stefanh to propose priority API. 11:07:22 Could not create new action (unparseable data in server response: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xc3 in position 1: ordinal not in range(128)) - please contact sysreq with the details of what happened. 11:08:40 yoshiaki has joined #webrtc 11:08:40 Adjourning for lunch. 11:10:41 kyeongho has joined #webrtc 11:10:46 - +44.190.881.aabb 11:12:31 kseo2 has joined #webrtc 11:56:50 fluffy has joined #webrtc 12:00:08 hta has joined #webrtc 12:01:40 stefanh has left #webrtc 12:10:42 hta has joined #webrtc 12:12:48 juberti has joined #webrtc 12:13:41 adambe has joined #webrtc 12:15:40 fluffy has joined #webrtc 12:16:11 tomoyuki has joined #webrtc 12:16:34 fluffy has joined #webrtc 12:16:39 ekr has joined #webrtc 12:16:50 richt has joined #webrtc 12:16:52 anant has joined #webrtc 12:16:57 fluffy has left #webrtc 12:17:03 burn has joined #webrtc 12:17:11 kensaku has joined #webrtc 12:17:49 RRSAgent, draft minutes 12:17:49 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webrtc-minutes.html dom 12:18:10 Everyone, the following session is in #mediacap 12:19:25 yoshiaki has joined #webrtc 12:19:49 yoshiaki_ has joined #webrtc 12:19:59 tpacbot has joined #webrtc 12:22:59 dom has changed the topic to: Media Capture TF Meeting on #mediacap 12:24:24 richt has joined #webrtc 12:25:28 Hidetoshi has joined #webrtc 12:25:39 Hidetoshi_ has joined #webrtc 12:31:56 AndyH has left #webrtc 12:33:25 + +44.190.881.aacc 12:33:55 markus_ has joined #webrtc 12:37:43 Zakim, who's on the call? 12:37:43 On the phone I see Rhone_1, +44.190.881.aacc 12:37:56 Zakim, code? 12:37:56 the conference code is 9782 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), dom 12:38:21 UW_Web RTC()3:00AM has been moved to #mediacap by dom 12:43:07 Alan has joined #webrtc 12:49:19 yoshiaki has joined #webrtc 12:50:54 dsinger has joined #webrtc 12:51:46 kseo2 has joined #webrtc 12:56:17 Alan has left #webrtc 13:05:59 Daisuke has joined #webrtc 13:07:40 kotakagi has joined #webrtc 13:36:25 trackbot has joined #webrtc 13:40:37 Wonsuk has joined #webrtc 13:48:59 massimo has joined #webrtc 13:52:49 trackbot has joined #webrtc 13:56:08 yoshiaki has joined #webrtc 14:03:03 yoshiaki has joined #webrtc 14:09:15 Hidetoshi has joined #webrtc 14:12:53 tomoyuki has joined #webrtc 14:17:26 dsinger has left #webrtc 14:19:06 yoshiaki has joined #webrtc 14:21:35