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16:54:42 <ArtB> mbrubeck, can you try calling in now? I think you will be connected to #webapps but just come here for the PointerEvents gathering. OK?
16:56:06 <ArtB> Meeting: Pointer Events and Web Events Gathering
16:56:10 <ArtB> ScribeNick: ArtB
16:56:15 <ArtB> Scribe: Art
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16:56:26 <ArtB> Date: 30 October 2012
16:56:56 <ArtB> Agenda: no formal agenda ...
16:57:02 <ArtB> Chair: Art
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16:58:20 <ArtB> Present: Art_Barstow, Mike_Smith, Anne_van_Kesteren, Anssi_Kostiainen, Lachlan_Hunt, Odin, Alex_Russell, Jonas_Sicking, Simon_Pieters, Olli_Pettay, Robin_Berjon, Adrian_Bateman, Henri_Sivonen
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16:59:06 <shan> Present+ Soonbo_Han
16:59:17 <sangwhan> Present+ Sangwhan_Moon
16:59:28 <Cathy_> Present+ Cathy_Chan
16:59:57 <mbrubeck> Present+ Matt_Brubeck
17:00:34 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make log public
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17:00:41 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:00:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webevents-minutes.html ArtB
17:00:50 <rbyers> Present+ Rick_Byers
17:01:40 <mbrubeck> Present+ Jacob_Rossi
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17:03:18 <mbrubeck> Present+ Ojan_Vafai
17:04:23 <adrianba> Microsoft submisson http://www.w3.org/Submission/2012/03/
17:04:33 <adrianba> Spec http://www.w3.org/Submission/2012/SUBM-pointer-events-20120907/
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17:06:04 <ArtB> Adrian: want apps to be able to write against a variety of pointer devices
17:06:22 <ArtB> … existing APIs for touch are difficult to use
17:06:35 <ArtB> … it was a difficult API to design
17:06:45 <ArtB> … we think this one works well with existing content
17:06:51 <ArtB> … that uses mouse events
17:07:06 <ArtB> … The goal of our Submission was to get others together
17:07:17 <ArtB> … to build something that is interoperable.
17:07:26 <ArtB> … The spec is modeled after mouse events
17:07:48 <ArtB> … one key take away is you can choose if you work against mouse or pointer events
17:07:57 <ArtB> … and can receive both types of message
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17:08:11 <ArtB> … (need this for app that only supports mouse events).
17:08:35 <ArtB> … A strength is just one code path for events.
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17:08:53 <ArtB> … Not just a single touch but multi touch and multiple input devices
17:08:55 <ojan> present+ Ojan_Vafai
17:09:00 <ArtB> … Events identify the type of event
17:09:06 <ArtB> … and that should be extensible
17:09:09 <dfreedm> Present+ Daniel_Freedman
17:09:15 <ArtB> … not just pen, mouse, etc.
17:09:15 <slightlyoff> Present+ Alex_Russell
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17:09:38 <ArtB> Adrian: there are controlling aspects too e.g. panning, scrolling
17:10:10 <ArtB> … we added what we think is the minimum needed
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17:10:22 <ArtB> Jacob: that's a good summary
17:10:24 <asir> Present+ Asir Selvasingh
17:10:34 <ArtB> … Goal is to have just one Pointer model
17:10:43 <spoussa> Present+ Sakari_Poussa
17:10:56 <ArtB> … Realize though that in the short term, devs will have to deal with "legacy" events
17:11:12 <ArtB> … Want it to work with sites regardless of pointer devices used
17:11:25 <ArtB> Matt: one issue I'd like to raise ...
17:11:40 <ArtB> … in addition to mouse legacy, there will be touch events legacy to consider too
17:11:50 <ArtB> … think the spec will have to deal with those interactions too
17:11:59 <ArtB> Jacob: we haven't worked that out yet
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17:12:08 <ArtB> Adrian: we've heard that feedback before
17:12:18 <ArtB> … but we haven't done the investigation
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17:12:32 <ArtB> … and agree the group will have to do some investigation there
17:12:40 <ArtB> Adrian: comments, questions
17:13:03 <ArtB> Rick: one of the challenges with touch events is not blocking on scroll events
17:13:14 <ArtB> … think pointer events helps there
17:13:38 <ArtB> [ Scribe missed some of Rick's points … ]
17:13:57 <ArtB> Jacob: pointer events does address Rick
17:14:16 <Lachy> q+
17:14:26 <ArtB> Rick: we have some apps that want to interupt scrolling
17:14:29 <tantek> sorry, just making sure.
17:14:36 <tantek> thanks mbrubeck, sangwhan
17:14:54 <adrianba> Rick's point was about allowing performant scrolling/panning from the UA while giving apps the JavaScript events when they want them
17:14:56 <odinho_> s/sorry, just making sure.//
17:14:59 <ArtB> Jacob: we have talked about how to handle interupts for panning, scrolling
17:15:06 <ArtB> … there are issues with multiple threads
17:15:07 <odinho_> s/thanks mbrubeck, sangwhan//
17:15:15 <adrianba> touch-action is related to this: http://www.w3.org/Submission/2012/SUBM-pointer-events-20120907/#the-touch-action-css-property
17:15:18 <ArtB> … think we should think about those cases
17:15:42 <ArtB> … Need to make sure we solve any related performance probs
17:15:55 <ArtB> Rick: agree performance is primary consideration
17:16:22 <ArtB> Lachlan: why introduce new events that mirror existing event (e.g. mouseup) rather than extending existing events?
17:16:32 <ArtB> Jacob: PE does inherit mouse events
17:16:51 <ArtB> … but multi touch, multi pointer creates probs for mouse events
17:16:57 <ArtB> Lachlan: ok
17:17:05 <ArtB> Doug: make sense Lachy?
17:17:11 <ArtB> Lachlan: yes
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17:18:19 <mbrubeck> Present+ Doug_Schepers
17:18:22 <ArtB> Art: Doug, can you say anything about the status of the proposed PE WG?
17:18:46 <ArtB> Doug: several Members responded (~8)
17:18:52 <ArtB> … got all positive support
17:19:03 <ArtB> … there were no objections from W3C management
17:19:12 <ArtB> … my expectation is the WG will be approved
17:19:25 <ArtB> … and that should happened "ASAP"
17:19:53 <ArtB> Doug: re the Web Events WG ...
17:19:54 <odinho_> RRSAgent: make minutes
17:19:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webevents-minutes.html odinho_
17:20:00 <ArtB> … they are working on Touch Events
17:20:12 <ArtB> … the v1 spec is in Candidate Recommendation
17:20:28 <ArtB> … after v1 goes to Recommendation, we expect the WG to close
17:20:41 <ArtB> … and hence we will do no additional work on Touch Events v2
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17:20:52 <ArtB> … Think PE spec is a good way forward.
17:21:27 <ArtB> … Re the IndieUI work, the PE WG will not have any formal joint work with IndieUI
17:21:47 <ArtB> … although we will notify them of PE WG's early drafts.
17:22:05 <ArtB> … I would like to see PE WG get a First Public WD published as soon as possible
17:22:24 <ArtB> Adrian: we don't want to see massive changes to PE spec
17:22:31 <ArtB> … we think it is a good foundation
17:22:39 <ArtB> … we do expect some changes
17:22:49 <ArtB> … even though that will affect our current implementation
17:22:59 <ArtB> Doug: thanks Adrian, that's helpful
17:23:29 <ArtB> Asir: when is the W3C management meeting?
17:23:32 <jrossi> asir
17:23:49 <ArtB> Doug: because of TPAC week, not this week
17:24:02 <ArtB> … but we are making it a priority
17:24:14 <ArtB> … perhaps a decision as early as next week
17:24:48 <ArtB> Art: I think Doug is saying next week is the absolute best case
17:25:38 <jrossi> Thanks for a PST friendly time! :-)
17:25:39 <ojan> Regarding touch events, of the WebKit reviewers looking at the spec really wanted to see the spec cover how pointer events interact with touch events, i.e. the touch event equivalent of http://www.w3.org/Submission/pointer-events/#compatibility-mapping-with-mouse-events
17:25:48 <ArtB> Art: send comments to public-pointer-events
17:25:49 <ojan> s/of/one of/
17:26:01 <smaug> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events
17:26:12 <ArtB> Doug: send comments to the list
17:26:25 <ArtB> … I want to thank Microsoft for making this Submission
17:26:30 <ArtB> … I really appreciate it
17:26:46 <ArtB> Jacob: looking forward to working for you
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17:26:53 <ArtB> Art: Gathering Adjourned
17:27:04 <asir> Thank you everyone!
17:27:12 <ojan> +1 to thanking MS for this submission
17:27:14 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:27:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/30-webevents-minutes.html ArtB
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