15:59:12 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-techs-tf
15:59:12 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/10/15-html-techs-tf-irc
15:59:17 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #html-techs-tf
15:59:35 <jamesn> zakim, this will be WAI_HTML
15:59:35 <Zakim> ok, jamesn; I see WAI_HTML TT()11:30AM scheduled to start 29 minutes ago
15:59:59 <jamesn> Meeting: HTML/ARIA Techniques Task Force
16:00:05 <jamesn> chair: James_Nurthen
16:00:11 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
16:00:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/15-html-techs-tf-minutes.html jamesn
16:00:23 <Zakim> WAI_HTML TT()11:30AM has now started
16:00:30 <jamesn> rrsagent, make log world
16:00:32 <Zakim> + +49.404.318.aaaa
16:00:39 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
16:00:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/15-html-techs-tf-minutes.html jamesn
16:00:41 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:01:06 <Zakim> +James_Nurthen
16:04:00 <marcjohlic> marcjohlic has joined #html-techs-tf
16:04:22 <Zakim> +Marc_Johlic
16:04:44 <jamesn> zakim, pick a victim
16:04:44 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose +49.404.318.aaaa
16:05:27 <jamesn> scribe: Detlev
16:05:36 <jamesn> zakim, +49 is Detlev
16:05:36 <Zakim> +Detlev; got it
16:06:00 <jamesn> zakim, IPcaller is Adam
16:06:00 <Zakim> +Adam; got it
16:06:23 <adam> adam has joined #html-techs-tf
16:06:28 <marcjohlic> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/htmltechs20121005/results
16:07:18 <Detlev> Starting with using aria-label for link purpose
16:07:28 <Zakim> +Jon_Gunderson
16:10:38 <Detlev> Marc: thought that aria-labelledby might be the better choice for link purpose
16:11:35 <Detlev> Jon: what about aria-descrobedBy - worls with JAWS and VO
16:11:52 <Detlev> James: that would be a diffent technique
16:12:01 <marcjohlic> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Techniques/ARIA
16:12:17 <Detlev> Marc: Yes there are other techniques for aria-describedby
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16:14:53 <Detlev> Link to SR tests: http://www.3needs.org/en/testing/code/aria-labelledby-for-link-purpose.html
16:16:18 <Detlev> target of aria-labelledby would need to be in the accessible tree (add tabindex -1)
16:16:28 <Detlev> Will update tests to reflect that
16:17:05 <Detlev> James: do the same tests for aria-describedBy
16:17:08 <Detlev> Will do
16:18:11 <Detlev> Marc: Is not the broader goal to identify sufficient techniques *provided* that AT will eventually support it?
16:18:33 <Detlev> Marc: It's then up to authors to decide what to implement
16:18:41 <Detlev> James: agrees
16:19:30 <Detlev> James: likes the example in technique, starts with same text as the link
16:19:49 <Detlev> jon: The typical use case would be the Read more.. links
16:20:54 <Detlev> Adam: could SC be met also by ajacent text?
16:21:20 <Detlev> Ajust example to not pass 2.44 without aria-label?
16:21:30 <Detlev> James: or apply to 2.4.9?
16:21:47 <Detlev> James: In any case, its difficult to fail 2.4.4.
16:22:17 <Detlev> Marc: Shall we add another example or modify?
16:22:37 <Detlev> Adam: adjust slightly so there is no visual adjacency
16:22:48 <Detlev> James: move into separate paragraphs
16:23:13 <Detlev> Jon: often Read more links *arte* on new lines
16:24:51 <Detlev> Marc: happy to go forward - include UA/AT support notes?
16:25:11 <Detlev> James UA notes point out where it *doesn't* work.
16:25:40 <Detlev> Marc: Should "Start with same text" goe into the description?
16:27:05 <Detlev> James: Expected behaviour of aria-label / aria-labelledby: remove the link text and replace it with content referenced by the attribute
16:28:26 <Detlev> James: inclusion in accessible tree of element referenced may only make a difference when more than one element is referenced - seems an IE quirk
16:29:21 <Detlev> James: SR results should go into UA notes of Wiki
16:29:41 <Detlev> and opage be linked for otgher cases
16:29:58 <Detlev> James: move to No. 3 of the survey (Loretta being not on the call)
16:30:17 <Detlev> Failure of 4.1.2 due to using Using Abstract Roles
16:31:37 <Detlev> James: no real code examples so that people won't copy and use it
16:31:46 <Detlev> Detlev: working cde useful
16:31:54 <Detlev> James: put note into code
16:33:01 <Detlev> James: referring to Detlev's comment - adding abstract roles does not meet the purpose of using ARIA
16:34:03 <Detlev> Detlev: if it doesn't do any harm, it should not be failure
16:34:24 <Detlev> James: agrees, leave it to larger audience to possibly quash it later
16:34:38 <Detlev> John & Marc: seem to agree it is a valid failure
16:34:50 <Detlev> Sorry: Jon
16:35:12 <Detlev> Jon: Validator will flag it
16:35:26 <Detlev> James: but invalidiy won't make it a failure
16:35:53 <Detlev> James: using abstract roles will indiacte lack of understanding of developer
16:36:08 <jamesn> i'll take those comments and come back with a new technique in a week or 2
16:36:27 <Detlev> thanks you wrequickwer than I
16:36:52 <Detlev> Move to nexx topic:
16:36:54 <Detlev> Using aria-activedescendant to allow keyboard operability
16:37:23 <Detlev> Adam: was discussed last week, main debate whether it falls into 2.1.1
16:37:34 <Detlev> Adam: results seem to indicate, it does
16:37:45 <Detlev> James: Jon, any opinion?
16:37:58 <marcjohlic> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_aria-activedescendant_to_allow_keyboard_operability
16:38:43 <Detlev> James: does aria-activedescendant help meeting 2.1.1?
16:39:40 <Detlev> Jon: aria-activedescendant supports focus handling when not everything is focusable
16:41:17 <Detlev> Detlev: question about behaviour aria-activedescendant
16:41:34 <Loretta> Loretta has joined #html-techs-tf
16:42:25 <Detlev> Jon: you would have to use tabindex to make elements focusable - with aria-activedescendant you can provide info to SR users without actually firing focu events
16:42:38 <Loretta> (Thought I'd drop in and watch while waiting for my meeting...)
16:43:07 <Detlev> Adam: focused elements will need visible keyboard focus (2.4.7)?
16:43:32 <Detlev> Jon: Yes you need companion techniques to ensure that visual focus is handled as well
16:44:15 <Detlev> Adam: Not clear if Sufficinet Techniques can provide a11y for parts of the disabled popolation
16:44:48 <Detlev> Adam: Is this not sufficient on its own?
16:45:42 <Detlev> James: Will be difficult to make clear what techniques have to be used in combination to create accessible content - also needs scripting
16:46:17 <Loretta> I think active descendant will be sufficient for 4.1.2, but not for keyboard access.
16:46:47 <Detlev> Jon: Suggestion would be to add a class attr to list item California may be named "focus" so it is clear that visual formatting is also required
16:47:57 <Detlev> Adam: agrees with Loretta that 4.1.2 is appropriate SC
16:48:19 <Detlev> Adam: should the technique combine 2.1.1 and 4.1.2?
16:48:45 <Detlev> Adam: aria-activedescendant refeers to properties of the element, not the focus
16:49:59 <Detlev> Adam: Title of technique needs to changed
16:50:13 <Detlev> James: what do you think of my suggested title?
16:50:31 <Detlev> james: may be "Move" ad the top does the job
16:50:50 <Detlev> James "Move" seems to create a redirect to the new one
16:50:58 <Detlev> Addam: will do if all agree with that
16:51:16 <Detlev> Adam: Change done!
16:51:34 <Loretta> Yes, use "Move" to rename.
16:51:45 <Detlev> Adam: The title would be in the way of combining 2.1.1 and 4.1.2
16:53:01 <Detlev> James: aria-label-techniques may not be easily combined
16:53:52 <Detlev> James: If we combine them the technique and internal diffwerentiation gets too complex - separating them out makes it easier, may be merged later
16:54:09 <jongund> need to go
16:54:14 <Zakim> -Jon_Gunderson
16:54:47 <Detlev> Adam: Will write up aria-activedescendant technique for 4.1.2
16:55:17 <Detlev> Adam: will follow opinion of group whether we should combine 2.1.1 and 4.1.2 or not
16:55:49 <Detlev> Adam: If combined will a generic title like "Using aria-activedescendant" be OK?
16:56:03 <Detlev> James: Has only one clear use case anyway
16:56:46 <Detlev> Adam: could write a new one to combine later
16:57:03 <Detlev> Or draft both options
16:57:42 <Detlev> James: Reading the intent again think that Lorettta is right about the role of focus
16:58:39 <Detlev> Adam: Action: Will re-write and try to combine technique to map onto 2,1,1 and 4.1.2
16:58:51 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
16:58:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/15-html-techs-tf-minutes.html jamesn
16:59:51 <Zakim> -Adam
16:59:52 <Detlev> bye
16:59:54 <Zakim> -James_Nurthen
16:59:55 <Zakim> -Marc_Johlic
16:59:56 <Zakim> -Detlev
16:59:57 <Zakim> WAI_HTML TT()11:30AM has ended
16:59:57 <Zakim> Attendees were +49.404.318.aaaa, James_Nurthen, Marc_Johlic, Detlev, Adam, Jon_Gunderson
16:59:58 <jamesn> zakim, please part
16:59:58 <Zakim> Zakim has left #html-techs-tf
17:00:04 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
17:00:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/15-html-techs-tf-minutes.html jamesn
17:09:49 <jongund> jongund has joined #html-techs-tf