IRC log of wcag2ict on 2012-10-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:53:57 [RRSAgent]

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/10/05-wcag2ict-irc

13:53:59 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs world

13:53:59 [Zakim]

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13:54:01 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be 2428

13:54:01 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot; I see WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes

13:54:02 [trackbot]

Meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference

13:54:02 [trackbot]

Date: 05 October 2012

13:54:14 [Andi]

scribe: Andi_Snow-Weaver

13:54:49 [Andi]

chair: Andi_Snow-Weaver

13:55:04 [Andi]

scribe: Mary_Jo_Mueller

13:55:27 [Zakim]

WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM has now started

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+Andi_Snow_Weaver

13:58:50 [David]

David has joined #wcag2ict

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+David_MacDonald

14:00:01 [Zakim]

+Kiran_Kaja

14:00:46 [Zakim]

+Alex_Li

14:00:51 [BBailey]

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14:01:02 [Kiran]

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14:01:31 [Kiran]

Zakim, who is on the phone?

14:01:31 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Andi_Snow_Weaver, David_MacDonald, Kiran_Kaja, Alex_Li

14:01:46 [Zakim]

+Bruce_Bailey

14:02:06 [Zakim]

+Mary_Jo_Mueller

14:02:16 [BBailey]

zakim, this is Bruce_Bailey

14:02:16 [Zakim]

sorry, BBailey, I do not see a conference named 'Bruce_Bailey' in progress or scheduled at this time

14:02:25 [Andi]

scribenick: MaryJo

14:02:32 [BBailey]

zakim, I am Bruce_Bailey

14:02:32 [Zakim]

ok, BBailey, I now associate you with Bruce_Bailey

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14:02:47 [Andi]

zakim, who is on the phone?

14:02:47 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Andi_Snow_Weaver, David_MacDonald, Kiran_Kaja, Alex_Li, Bruce_Bailey, Mary_Jo_Mueller

14:02:54 [Zakim]

+Gregg_Vanderheiden

14:03:05 [greggvanderheiden]

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+ +44.162.859.aaaa

14:03:54 [Zakim]

+[Oracle]

14:04:07 [korn]

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14:04:08 [Andi]

zakim, +44.162.859.aaaa is Mike_Pluke

14:04:08 [Zakim]

+Mike_Pluke; got it

14:04:25 [Andi]

zakim, [Oracle] has Peter Korn

14:04:25 [Zakim]

+Peter, Korn; got it

14:04:36 [Zakim]

-Kiran_Kaja

14:04:48 [MaryJo]

regrets: Pierce_Crowell, Allen_Hoffman

14:05:22 [Andi]

https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/OCT032012/results

14:06:25 [MaryJo]

Topic: Survey results

14:07:37 [Zakim]

+Judy

14:08:23 [Zakim]

+Peter_Korn

14:08:49 [janina]

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14:08:51 [Zakim]

-[Oracle]

14:09:08 [Zakim]

+??P8

14:09:17 [janina]

zakim, ??P8 is Janina

14:09:17 [Zakim]

+Janina; got it

14:09:20 [Judy]

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Judy has joined #wcag2ict

14:10:22 [greggvanderheiden]

q+

14:10:30 [Zakim]

-Alex_Li

14:10:42 [Zakim]

+[Microsoft]

14:11:21 [Andi]

RESOLUTION: Accept Appendix A proposed changes to 1.3.2 and all success criteria except 2.4.1, 2.4.2, 2.4.5, 3.2.3

14:11:36 [MaryJo]

RESOLUTION: Accept Appendix A proposed changes to 1.3.2 and all success criteria except 2.4.1, 2.4.2, 2.4.5, 3.2.3

14:11:47 [greggvanderheiden]

q?

14:11:50 [alex_]

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14:11:50 [korn]

q+

14:12:09 [MaryJo]

topic: 1.4.2

14:12:41 [MaryJo]

s/1.4.2/Closed functionality - text for introduction/

14:12:49 [alex_]

q+

14:12:52 [Andi]

ack gregg

14:13:19 [MaryJo]

https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/OCT032012/results#xq8

14:13:42 [Zakim]

+??P3

14:13:44 [janina]

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14:13:56 [MaryJo]

Proposal was made to add some SC to the list of what is not applicable for closed functionality.

14:14:54 [Andi]

zakim, ??P3 is Janina_Sajka

14:14:54 [Zakim]

+Janina_Sajka; got it

14:14:59 [Andi]

ack korn

14:15:06 [MaryJo]

For 1.4.2 audio control, this would have to be met for anything that is self-voicing.

14:15:06 [janina]

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14:15:21 [MaryJo]

We might want to explain that in our document.

14:15:36 [janina]

zakim, who's on the phone?

14:15:36 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Andi_Snow_Weaver, David_MacDonald, Bruce_Bailey, Mary_Jo_Mueller, Gregg_Vanderheiden, Mike_Pluke, Judy, Peter_Korn, Janina, [Microsoft], Janina_Sajka

14:16:00 [korn]

q-

14:16:02 [greggvanderheiden]

q+

14:16:07 [janina]

zakim, drop janina

14:16:07 [Zakim]

Janina is being disconnected

14:16:08 [Zakim]

-Janina

14:16:13 [Andi]

ack alex_

14:16:33 [David]

q+

14:16:36 [Zakim]

-Janina_Sajka

14:16:36 [Mike_]

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14:16:58 [Zakim]

+??P3

14:17:08 [janina]

zakim, ??P3 is Janina

14:17:08 [Zakim]

+Janina; got it

14:17:37 [Mike_]

q+

14:17:50 [janina]

q+

14:17:54 [Andi]

ack gregg

14:18:11 [MaryJo]

In addition, some of these programmatic SC are useful if the technology includes its own AT, and we should add a note to this effect.

14:19:51 [alex_]

q+

14:20:30 [korn]

First suggestion for the note:

14:20:30 [korn]

Note: While the information in this list of provisions doesn't need to be provided to separately loaded AT (not built into the closed system), any built-in functionality providing (for example) a speech interface to the blind may need the information described in these provisions.

14:21:14 [Andi]

ack david

14:22:08 [Andi]

ack mike

14:22:18 [greggvanderheiden]

Note: While the information in this list of provisions doesn't need to be provided to separately loaded AT (not built into the closed system), any built-in functionality providing (for example a speech interface to the blind) would find the information described in these provisions useful.

14:23:12 [korn]

q+

14:23:37 [greggvanderheiden]

Note: While the information in this list of provisions doesn't need to be provided to separately loaded AT (not built into the closed system), any built-in functionality providing alternate access (for example a speech interface to the blind) would find the information described in these provisions useful.

14:23:46 [korn]

Perhaps the right answer is to re-cast SC 1.4.2 in the closed environment, to make it apply to any built-in speech UI for blind users.

14:24:11 [MaryJo]

Any audio that automatically plays should stop if the user interacts with the closed product and causes some content or actions to be spoken.

14:24:16 [Andi]

ack korn

14:25:06 [greggvanderheiden]

q+

14:25:13 [Mike_]

M376 -text = Where auditory output is provided as non-visual access to closed functionality, the ICT shall not automatically play, at the same time, any interfering audible output that lasts longer than three seconds.

14:26:08 [Andi]

ack janina

14:26:29 [MaryJo]

We may want to restate the SC, to describe what it means in the closed context. So it limits 1.4.2 to when self-voicing capabilities are provided.

14:27:22 [Andi]

ack alex

14:27:54 [korn]

Suggestion for an additional note on this topic:

14:27:54 [korn]

Note: While the intent of SC 1.4.2 as written for the Web environment is to address conflicts between the audio of the page and audio of any AT providing a speech interface.  For closed environments, SC 1.4.2 applies to the audio of the software and any provided alternate speech output interface provided for blind users. 

14:28:09 [Zakim]

-Janina

14:28:27 [Andi]

ack gregg

14:28:46 [MaryJo]

If the audio and visual are in synch and are not interruptable by the sighted user, it should not be interruptable by the non-sighted user.

14:29:02 [janina]

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14:29:17 [alex_]

q+

14:29:21 [Zakim]

+??P3

14:29:28 [janina]

zakim, ??P3 is Janina

14:29:28 [Zakim]

+Janina; got it

14:30:36 [MaryJo]

The problem occurs in situations where the audio plays and the user is able to interact with the closed product to perform functions and the audio is not interrupted.

14:31:06 [korn]

q+

14:32:12 [MaryJo]

If we remove this SC here, then policies that cover closed products must include a provision to make up for this.

14:32:25 [korn]

q+

14:32:28 [alex_]

q-

14:32:28 [Andi]

ack alex

14:32:33 [MaryJo]

topic: Proposal on conformance

14:32:48 [MaryJo]

https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/OCT032012/results#xq7

14:33:49 [Andi]

ack korn

14:33:54 [greggvanderheiden]

q+

14:35:15 [Andi]

ack gregg

14:35:46 [korn]

q+

14:36:10 [Andi]

q+

14:36:42 [korn]

q-

14:36:42 [korn]

q+

14:38:08 [MaryJo]

All policies do say that it's all or nothing, but they also have a 'best meets' clause when full conformance is not met.

14:38:21 [Mike_]

q+

14:40:28 [MaryJo]

Conformance won't be met if all of the SCs are not met, so you just need to document how well you meet the SC and what the issues were where some SC weren't met.

14:40:45 [MaryJo]

We don't want to confuse conformance with how you report conformance.

14:41:05 [greggvanderheiden]

q+

14:41:55 [Andi]

ack andi

14:42:05 [Andi]

ack korn

14:42:08 [MaryJo]

In the WCAG2ICT document, we wouldn't prescribe how you report conformance but can talk about what the issues are with reporting conformance.

14:43:01 [Andi]

ack mike

14:43:05 [MaryJo]

We also need to discuss the challenges in conformance for software, since you cannot verify without a doubt that it isn't 100% conforming.

14:43:30 [MaryJo]

s/isn't/is or isn't/

14:44:24 [Zakim]

+??P8

14:44:53 [Zakim]

-??P8

14:45:35 [MaryJo]

You can make a statement that you don't conform with a list of exceptions for the SC that weren't met.

14:46:47 [Andi]

action: Peter to work with Gregg to draft language about reporting progress toward conformance

14:46:47 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-66 - Work with Gregg to draft language about reporting progress toward conformance [on Peter Korn - due 2012-10-12].

14:47:49 [korn]

q+

14:49:13 [MaryJo]

topic: White paper: Objects of Assessment section

14:49:25 [MaryJo]

https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/OCT032012/results#xq2

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14:49:53 [Zakim]

+??P8

14:49:59 [janina]

zakim, ??P8 is Janina

14:49:59 [Zakim]

+Janina; got it

14:51:08 [David]

q+

14:52:11 [MaryJo]

There was concern expressed with the tight coupling between the 'objects of assessment' and 'conformance' with a suggested edit.

14:52:30 [Andi]

ack david

14:52:35 [Andi]

ack gregg

14:52:51 [Andi]

ack korn

14:54:50 [janina]

janina has joined #wcag2ict

14:55:05 [Zakim]

+??P11

14:55:11 [janina]

zakim, ??P11 is Janina

14:55:11 [Zakim]

+Janina; got it

14:57:27 [MaryJo]

When this talks about the 'smallest unit of conformance' the evaluation for the SC occurs on 'all parts of a process' which could be several pages, or the 'set of pages' when it is a set that can't stand alone, or the singular 'web page'.

15:00:26 [MaryJo]

topic: Whitepaper - Part 2 - Objects of assessment in ICT

15:00:36 [MaryJo]

https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/OCT032012/results#xq3

15:04:54 [MaryJo]

Some of the responders were concerned with the replacement of 'web page' with 'software product'.

15:05:12 [korn]

q+

15:05:24 [alex_]

q+

15:06:00 [MaryJo]

We will also need to be careful of how we define a set based on concerns that multiple unrelated software programs are shipped/installed together (more of a bundle than a set).

15:08:52 [korn]

q-

15:08:58 [MaryJo]

Suggestion was made to split out the 'set' part of part 2 so we can reach agreement on the rest of this section.

15:11:45 [MaryJo]

Separating out 'set' is fine, but the discussion should not be delayed much longer, as we need to reach agreement.

15:16:21 [Andi]

ack alex

15:16:33 [korn]

I suggest we move to the next item...

15:20:26 [MaryJo]

topic: Whitepaper - pulling this together

15:20:28 [MaryJo]

https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/OCT032012/results#xq4

15:21:46 [MichaelC_]

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Andi has joined #wcag2ict

15:23:08 [korn]

q+

15:23:34 [MaryJo]

A definition of 'navigation mechanisms' was proposed, as this is needed. We could add it to another survey.

15:24:33 [Andi]

ack korn

15:24:36 [Andi]

q+

15:25:28 [MaryJo]

We'll need to work on the definition more, as the notion of 'move' is problematic.

15:26:40 [MaryJo]

Need to add the notion that if you are executing any actions, that is not navigation.

15:27:27 [Andi]

action: Gregg to work with Peter on defining what navigation means in software

15:27:27 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-67 - Work with Peter on defining what navigation means in software [on Gregg Vanderheiden - due 2012-10-12].

15:28:56 [MaryJo]

Concern was expressed that there shouldn't only be a single title for a software product. There should also be individual titles for windows and dialog boxes.

15:29:51 [MaryJo]

However, we cannot require a title for every single dialog or window within the software. It is a good practice, but is difficult to mandate.

15:30:01 [korn]

q?

15:30:04 [Andi]

ack andi

15:31:20 [Zakim]

-Peter_Korn

15:32:49 [Zakim]

-Gregg_Vanderheiden

15:33:21 [korn]

korn has left #wcag2ict

15:33:40 [Judy]

zakim, who's here?

15:33:40 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Andi_Snow_Weaver, David_MacDonald, Bruce_Bailey, Mary_Jo_Mueller, Mike_Pluke, Judy, [Microsoft], Janina, Janina.a, Janina.aa

15:33:42 [Zakim]

On IRC I see Andi, MichaelC, janina, Mike_, alex_, Judy, greggvanderheiden, MaryJo, Kiran, BBailey, David, Zakim, RRSAgent, trackbot

15:33:50 [greggvanderheiden]

can someone call me?

15:33:56 [greggvanderheiden]

or are we done?

15:34:15 [Zakim]

-[Microsoft]

15:34:17 [greggvanderheiden]

OK thx

15:34:48 [Mike_]

Mike_ has left #wcag2ict

15:34:50 [Zakim]

-Bruce_Bailey

15:34:51 [Zakim]

-Judy

15:34:51 [Zakim]

-Andi_Snow_Weaver

15:34:53 [Zakim]

-Janina.aa

15:34:55 [Zakim]

-Mary_Jo_Mueller

15:34:55 [Zakim]

-David_MacDonald

15:35:00 [janina]

janina has left #wcag2ict

15:36:12 [Zakim]

-Mike_Pluke

15:37:00 [MaryJo]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:37:00 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/05-wcag2ict-minutes.html MaryJo

16:24:59 [MichaelC]

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