13:50:10 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wcag2ict
13:50:10 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/10/02-wcag2ict-irc
13:50:12 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
13:50:12 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #wcag2ict
13:50:14 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2428
13:50:14 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM scheduled to start in 10 minutes
13:50:15 <trackbot> Meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
13:50:15 <trackbot> Date: 02 October 2012
13:50:34 <Andi> chair: Andi_Snow-Weaver
13:58:32 <shadi_> shadi_ has joined #wcag2ict
13:58:32 <janina> janina has joined #wcag2ict
13:58:52 <Zakim> WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM has now started
13:58:59 <Zakim> +??P2
13:59:08 <janina> zakim, ??P2 is Janina_Sajka
13:59:08 <Zakim> +Janina_Sajka; got it
13:59:48 <MaryJo> MaryJo has joined #wcag2ict
14:00:20 <Zakim> + +1.206.778.aaaa
14:00:32 <Zakim> +Mary_Jo_Mueller
14:00:47 <Zakim> +Andi_Snow-Weaver
14:01:01 <Zakim> + +0162859aabb
14:01:06 <Zakim> +Bruce_Bailey
14:01:11 <BBailey> BBailey has joined #wcag2ict
14:01:15 <Andi> zakim, +1.206.778.aaaa is Alex_Li
14:01:15 <Zakim> +Alex_Li; got it
14:01:23 <greggvanderheiden> greggvanderheiden has joined #wcag2ict
14:01:25 <shadi_> zakim, aabb is Kiran
14:01:25 <Zakim> +Kiran; got it
14:01:38 <Zakim> +Gregg_Vanderheiden
14:01:41 <shadi_> zakim, kiran has Loic and Shadi
14:01:42 <Zakim> +Loic, Shadi; got it
14:01:49 <BBailey> zakim, this is Bruce_Bailey
14:01:49 <Zakim> sorry, BBailey, I do not see a conference named 'Bruce_Bailey' in progress or scheduled at this time
14:01:57 <shadi_> zakim, mute me
14:01:57 <Zakim> sorry, shadi_, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
14:02:00 <Loic> Loic has joined #wcag2ict
14:02:07 <BBailey> zakim, i am Bruce_Bailey
14:02:07 <Zakim> ok, BBailey, I now associate you with Bruce_Bailey
14:02:09 <shadi> zakim, mute me
14:02:09 <Zakim> sorry, shadi, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
14:02:23 <Andi> regrets: Peter_Korn, Mike_Pluke
14:02:38 <MaryJo> scribe:MaryJo
14:02:57 <Andi> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/SEP262012/results#xq10
14:03:13 <MaryJo> zakim, next item
14:03:13 <Zakim> I see nothing on the agenda
14:03:28 <MaryJo> topic: Comment 2670
14:03:32 <Zakim> +Judy
14:05:13 <Kiran> Kiran has joined #WCAG2ICT
14:06:07 <MaryJo> RESOLUTION: Accept proposed solution for LC-2670 as amended in the meeting.
14:06:33 <David_MacD_Lenovo> David_MacD_Lenovo has joined #wcag2ict
14:07:02 <MaryJo> topic: LC-2659 - Take into account differences between platform and application software
14:07:12 <MaryJo> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/SEP262012/results#xq11
14:08:58 <David_MacD_Lenovo> dmacdona
14:09:30 <BBailey> Zakim, who is on the phone
14:09:30 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', BBailey
14:09:50 <BBailey> Zakim, who is on the call
14:09:50 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the call', BBailey
14:09:56 <BBailey> Zakim, who is here
14:09:57 <Zakim> BBailey, you need to end that query with '?'
14:10:05 <BBailey> Zakim, who is here?
14:10:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see Janina_Sajka, Alex_Li, Mary_Jo_Mueller, Andi_Snow-Weaver, Kiran, Bruce_Bailey, Gregg_Vanderheiden, Judy
14:10:07 <Zakim> Kiran has Loic, Shadi
14:10:07 <Zakim> On IRC I see David_MacD_Lenovo, Kiran, Loic, greggvanderheiden, BBailey, MaryJo, janina, shadi, Zakim, RRSAgent, Andi, MichaelC, trackbot
14:13:20 <MaryJo> Discussion on adding the dates of the latest publications of EU M376 and 508 Refresh to the proposed resolution.
14:13:36 <greggvanderheiden> With regard to this task force, however, we are not making any guidelines for software acting in its platform role(s). These should be covered elsewhere and are covered elsewhere in both the Dec 2011  US Access Board and July 2012 EU M376 standards.
14:15:19 <greggvanderheiden> With regard to this task force, however, we are not making any guidelines for software acting in its platform role(s) since these are not covered in WCAG. These should be covered elsewhere, for instance they are covered elsewhere in both the Dec 2011  US Access Board and July 2012 EU M376 standard releases.
14:15:52 <greggvanderheiden> With regard to this task force, however, we are not making any guidelines for software acting in its platform role(s) since these are not covered in WCAG. These should be covered elsewhere. For instance they are covered elsewhere in both the Dec 2011  US Access Board and July 2012 EU M376 standard release
14:16:05 <MaryJo> Will want to indicate that these 508 Refresh and EU M376 as examples of places where the additional requirements are made. Other countries will have to follow suit.
14:16:46 <greggvanderheiden> With regard to this task force, however, we are not making any guidelines for software acting in its platform role(s) since these are not covered in WCAG. These should be covered elsewhere. For instance they are covered in both the Dec 2011  US Access Board and July 2012 EU M376 standard draft releases.
14:17:50 <Andi> These should be covered elsewhere. For instance they are covered in various ISO standards, as you mention, and in both the Dec 2011 US Access Board and July 2012 EU M376 standard draft releases.
14:18:32 <greggvanderheiden> With regard to this task force, however, we are not making any guidelines for software acting in its platform role(s) since these are not covered in WCAG. These should be covered elsewhere. For instance they are covered in various ISO standards, as you mention, and in both the Dec 2011 US Access Board and July 2012 EU M376 standard draft releases.
14:19:26 <MaryJo> RESOLUTION: Accept the proposed resolution for LC-2658 as amended in the meeting.
14:19:51 <Andi> s/2658/2659/
14:20:27 <MaryJo> topic: LC-2671 -  Interoperability
14:20:35 <MaryJo> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/SEP262012/results#xq12
14:21:30 <Judy> Judy has joined #wcag2ict
14:23:36 <BBailey> q+ to say MaryJo comments (observations) are really good.  Do we want to add to introduction?
14:24:29 <BBailey> hung up rather than hit mute
14:24:55 <MaryJo> Looking at Mary Jo's proposal. Suggestion to modify the sentence about 'Specific development techniques' to just 'techniques'.
14:25:06 <Judy> q+
14:25:11 <Andi> ack bruce
14:25:11 <Zakim> Bruce_Bailey, you wanted to say MaryJo comments (observations) are really good.  Do we want to add to introduction?
14:25:28 <MaryJo> Also a suggestion to modify the last sentence to make it sound less like a decree.
14:25:34 <BBailey> s/hung up rather than hit mute//
14:25:44 <Andi> ack judy
14:25:59 <MaryJo> This looks like some good information to add to the introduction.
14:27:58 <MaryJo> We agreed instead to remove the last sentence.
14:28:35 <alex_> alex_ has joined #wcag2ict
14:28:39 <MaryJo> RESOLUTION: Accept suggested resolution for LC-2671 as amended in the meeting.
14:29:22 <MaryJo> topic: LC 2662 - Document doesn't give guidance for closed systems (kiosks)
14:29:30 <MaryJo> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/SEP262012/results#xq14
14:30:03 <MaryJo> Small edit to remove: "Work of this Task Force includes ....."
14:30:08 <greggvanderheiden> RE Closed functionality
14:30:09 <greggvanderheiden> We have created a specific section in the introduction that discusses closed functionality and how to handle them since "programmatic determinability" won't work if assistive technologies cannot be used . It is included below:
14:30:10 <greggvanderheiden> <insert paragraph on closed functionality> @@@@
14:30:11 <greggvanderheiden> RE  More detail on application of WCAG to different technologies
14:30:12 <greggvanderheiden> With regard to your comment about the value of additional technical guidance with regard to applying WCAG 2.0 to non-web content and software, we also agree, however, it is beyond the scope of this task force to prepare extensive application materials. We hope that there will soon be a number of books, manuals, training materials etc. on this topic. 
14:30:59 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
14:31:00 <Zakim> -Alex_Li
14:31:12 <Andi> zakim, [Microsoft] has Alex_Li
14:31:12 <Zakim> +Alex_Li; got it
14:31:30 <Andi> https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/35422/WD-wcag2ict-20120727/2662
14:31:30 <MaryJo> Also, suggested to remove the details of the task force work description.
14:32:08 <BBailey> q+ to ask for better word than "hope"?
14:34:00 <Andi> ack bruce
14:34:00 <Zakim> Bruce_Bailey, you wanted to ask for better word than "hope"?
14:34:27 <MaryJo> RESOLUTION: Accept suggested resolution for LC-2662 as amended in the meeting.
14:35:08 <MaryJo> topic: LC-2653 - Split document into software and documentation parts
14:35:17 <MaryJo> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/SEP262012/results#xq15
14:37:22 <Judy> q+
14:37:32 <greggvanderheiden> q+
14:37:35 <Judy> q+ Kiran
14:37:47 <MaryJo> With regard to splitting the guidance between documents and software, M376 and the 508 refresh currently do that.
14:38:10 <greggvanderheiden> q-
14:38:10 <Andi> ack gregg
14:38:35 <MaryJo> If you look at our WCAG2ICT summary document, almost all of the success criteria guidance is for both together.
14:39:09 <greggvanderheiden> q+
14:39:15 <Andi> ack judy
14:40:30 <Andi> ack kiran
14:40:49 <MaryJo> We probably shouldn't commit to this work in the response to the comment. Splitting into two could happen at a later time, but the two documents will be largely the same information repeated.
14:44:12 <greggvanderheiden> @@@ [insert comment if we change docs to non-embeded content]
14:44:53 <MaryJo> We'll add an @@ note into the comment in case we reach concensus to change to use 'non-embedded content' throughout.
14:44:54 <Andi> ack gregg
14:45:15 <MaryJo> RESOLUTION: Accept the proposed resolution for LC-2653 as amended in the meeting.
14:45:37 <MaryJo> topic: LC-2687 - WCAG does not contain complete requirements for non-web ICT
14:45:44 <MaryJo> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/SEP262012/results#xq16
14:47:23 <greggvanderheiden> @@@ [insert comment if we change docs to non-embeded content  --  IF IT HELPS HERE]
14:47:36 <MaryJo> Suggestion was made to add a reference to the changes we're making changes to the introduction that notes WCAG assumes a browser/user-agent and non-web non-embedded content doesn't have such.
14:47:46 <greggvanderheiden> "The focus of the work is on "content" as it occurs in both electronic documents and software. Other aspects of software are outside the scope of the Task Force and are covered in separate provisions being drafted for Section 508 (in the US) and Mandate 376 (in Europe).
14:48:40 <BBailey> q+
14:48:50 <Andi> We agree that additional requirements are needed especially for software acting in platform role(s).   However, we are not charged with determining what the overall requirements for ICT should be.
14:49:03 <Andi> We agree that additional requirements are needed especially for software acting in platform role(s).The focus of the work is on "content" as it occurs in both electronic documents and software. Other aspects of software are outside the scope of the Task Force and are covered in separate provisions being drafted for Section 508 (in the US) and Mandate 376 (in Europe).
14:49:08 <greggvanderheiden> We agree that additional requirements are needed especially for software acting in platform role(s).  "The focus of the work is on "content" as it occurs in both electronic documents and software. Other aspects of software are outside the scope of the Task Force and are covered in separate provisions being drafted for Section 508 (in the US) and Mandate 376 (in Europe).
14:49:08 <greggvanderheiden> As you point out, these are the purview of the US Access Board and the EU M376 standards development team. It would be inappropriate for us to step beyond our role of discussing how WCAG would be applied to ICT and into the Access Board and M376 standard team's role and make comments on what the overall requirements for ICT should be or what portion of this WCAG would cover. Neither the Access Board nor the M376 team appeared to need to be 
14:49:09 <greggvanderheiden> told that WCAG is not sufficient all by itself and that other requirements are needed in addition to WCAG because both are including additional requirements in addition to WZCAG.
14:49:11 <greggvanderheiden> We have, however, included a statement in the introduction explaining that WCAG 2.0 may not be sufficient to ensure accessibility for non-web ICT. Specifically, "This document does not address gaps in requirements that could potentially materialize when WCAG 2.0 is used with non-Web ICT; it is therefore important to note that WCAG 2.0 may not be sufficient by itself to ensure accessibility in non-Web ICT."
14:49:16 <MaryJo> Proposal was made to keep the first sentence and have Mike's edit as the 2nd sentence.
14:49:42 <Andi> ack bruce
14:51:33 <MaryJo> RESOLUTION: Accept the proposed resolution to LC-2687 as amended in the meeting.
14:51:59 <MaryJo> topic: LC 2702 - WCAG is not a complete set of requirements for non-web ICT
14:52:07 <MaryJo> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/SEP262012/results#xq17
14:52:48 <MaryJo> Proposal to replace some of the text with updates made to other similar comments.
14:55:05 <Zakim> +David_MacDonald
14:56:41 <MaryJo> Need to change some of the wording because of the tone.  Also affects LC-2687 that we consensed on last Friday.
14:56:59 <David> David has joined #wcag2ict
14:57:19 <Andi> This sentence in 2702 is also in 2687: Neither the Access Board nor the M376 team appeared to need to be told that WCAG is not sufficient all by itself and that other requirements are needed in addition to WCAG because both are including additional requirements in addition to WZCAG.
14:57:25 <greggvanderheiden> https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/35422/WD-wcag2ict-20120727/2687
14:58:05 <MaryJo> RESOLUTION: Accept proposed resolution LC-2702 as amended in the meeting and modification to remove sentence from LC 2687.
14:58:42 <MaryJo> topic: LC-2664 - Terms
14:58:51 <MaryJo> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/SEP262012/results#xq18
14:59:24 <MaryJo> One of the comments says to refer to the comments or 2654, but we haven't consensed on that one yet.
15:00:17 <MaryJo> There will be extended discussion and new terms added to the new draft.
15:03:32 <MaryJo> RESOLUTION: Accept the proposed resolution to LC-2664 as amended in the meeting.
15:04:42 <MaryJo> topic: LC-2654 - Better definition of terms
15:04:50 <MaryJo> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/SEP262012/results#xq19
15:05:37 <MaryJo> RESOLUTION: Accept proposed resolution to LC-2654 as amended in the meeting.
15:06:02 <MaryJo> topic: LC-2660 - Define main terms/concepts for purpose of the document
15:06:17 <MaryJo> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/SEP262012/results#xq20
15:08:29 <MaryJo> Perhaps the proposed solution to LC-2664 can suffice for this one as well. 
15:09:13 <MaryJo> RESOLUTION: Accept the proposed resolution for LC-2660 as amended in the meeting.
15:10:51 <MaryJo> topic: LC-2675 - 'Documents' in key terms
15:10:58 <MaryJo> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/SEP262012/results#xq21
15:11:33 <Judy> q+
15:12:02 <MaryJo> This is also very similar to the last two comments, but from a different person. The same solution can be used for this as well.
15:12:26 <Andi> ack judy 
15:12:46 <MaryJo> RESOLUTION: Accept the proposed resolution for LC-2675 as amended in the meeting.
15:13:22 <MaryJo> topic: Action items
15:14:27 <Andi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG2ICT-TF/track/actions/open
15:15:08 <Andi> https://sites.google.com/site/wcag2ict/home/introduction-to-wcag2ict-application-note
15:17:32 <MaryJo> Action 63 - A proposed solution was drafted.
15:17:32 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find 63. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG2ICT-TF/track/users>.
15:19:01 <MaryJo> There were some minor edits proposed.
15:24:33 <Loic> q+
15:24:55 <MaryJo> You can make a product for closed functionality so that it self-voices instead of using programmatic determinability for AT.
15:25:05 <MaryJo> Since there is no AT in this situation.
15:26:06 <MaryJo> Some of the provisions still apply, but closed functionality would have to use an implementation that is not something programmatically determainable for AT.
15:27:55 <Andi> ack loic
15:30:00 <MaryJo> May want to say that for closed functionality, we have a list of SC that aren't meaningful because of the reliance on assistive technology to use programmatic information to announce to the user.  
15:30:53 <MaryJo> The closed functionality products would have to provide the same functionality to replace what was intended by the SC.
15:31:04 <alex_> q+
15:31:24 <Zakim> -Gregg_Vanderheiden
15:31:49 <greggvanderheiden> we are over and I was tossed off
15:32:09 <greggvanderheiden> but I put in an alternate  version to look at
15:32:16 <greggvanderheiden> based on andi's 
15:32:24 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
15:32:26 <Zakim> -Judy
15:32:27 <Zakim> -Andi_Snow-Weaver
15:32:27 <Zakim> -Janina_Sajka
15:32:29 <Zakim> -Bruce_Bailey
15:32:29 <Zakim> -David_MacDonald
15:32:33 <Zakim> -Kiran
15:32:35 <janina> janina has left #wcag2ict
15:32:36 <Zakim> -Mary_Jo_Mueller
15:32:38 <Zakim> WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM has ended
15:32:38 <Zakim> Attendees were Janina_Sajka, Mary_Jo_Mueller, Andi_Snow-Weaver, +0162859aabb, Bruce_Bailey, Alex_Li, Gregg_Vanderheiden, Loic, Shadi, Judy, David_MacDonald
15:33:21 <MaryJo> We should say that the functionality covered by the SC that concern AT interoperability are covered by requirements outside of the document (similar to how we handle additional requirements for software/platforms).
15:33:51 <MaryJo> rrsagent, make minutes
15:33:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/02-wcag2ict-minutes.html MaryJo
15:42:53 <MaryJo> s/comment 2670/LC-2670 - Closed Systems/
15:43:05 <MaryJo> rrsagent, make minutes
15:43:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/02-wcag2ict-minutes.html MaryJo
15:49:12 <MaryJo> s/dmacdona//
16:09:56 <MaryJo> s/we are over and I was tossed off//
16:10:04 <MaryJo> s/but I put in an alternate version to look at
16:10:12 <MaryJo> s/but I put in an alternate version to look at//
16:10:31 <MaryJo> s/based on andi's//
16:10:40 <MaryJo> rrsagent, make minutes
16:10:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/02-wcag2ict-minutes.html MaryJo
16:37:55 <Andi> Andi has left #wcag2ict
17:01:10 <MaryJo> zakim, bye
17:01:10 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wcag2ict