13:58:34 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #sparql
13:58:34 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/09/25-sparql-irc
13:58:36 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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13:58:38 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 77277
13:58:38 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
13:58:39 <trackbot> Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference
13:58:39 <trackbot> Date: 25 September 2012
13:58:48 <AndyS> zakim, this is 77277
13:58:48 <Zakim> ok, AndyS; that matches SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM
13:59:05 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #sparql
13:59:14 <AxelPolleres> trackbot, start meeting
13:59:26 <AxelPolleres> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2012-09-25
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13:59:34 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
13:59:36 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 77277
13:59:36 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
13:59:37 <trackbot> Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference
13:59:37 <trackbot> Date: 25 September 2012
13:59:47 <AxelPolleres> chair: Axel Polleres
14:00:02 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:00:03 <Zakim> I notice SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has restarted
14:00:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see cbuilara
14:00:11 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:00:12 <cbuilara> zakim, mute me
14:00:13 <Zakim> On the phone I see cbuilara
14:00:13 <Zakim> sorry, cbuilara, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
14:00:40 <cbuilara> zakim, mute me
14:00:48 <Zakim> sorry, cbuilara, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
14:00:57 <bglimm> bglimm has joined #sparql
14:01:27 <cbuilara> only me!
14:01:27 <AxelPolleres> Sandro, Carlos, Greg, Andy, Arthur, Axel,  Steve, on the phone, anybody else?
14:01:51 <AxelPolleres> Birte also on the phone.
14:02:08 <cbuilara> I can do it
14:02:15 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, pick a victim
14:02:17 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose cbuilara
14:02:25 <MattPerry> MattPerry has joined #sparql
14:02:29 <AxelPolleres> scribe: carlos
14:02:43 <bglimm> Zakim, hands up
14:02:43 <Zakim> I see bglimm on the speaker queue
14:02:49 <bglimm> ack bglimm
14:02:54 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me
14:02:54 <Zakim> sorry, bglimm, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
14:03:01 <cbuilara> AxelPolleres: work for publication next week
14:03:14 <AxelPolleres> topic: admin
14:03:14 <cbuilara> AxelPolleres: focus on resolving main left issues
14:03:21 <AxelPolleres> PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2012-09-18
14:03:36 <cbuilara> AxelPolleres: any comments on the minutes
14:03:46 <AxelPolleres> RESOLVED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2012-09-18
14:04:01 <AxelPolleres> Next regular meeting: 2012-10-02 @ 15:00 UK / 10:00 EST  
14:04:16 <cbuilara> AxelPolleres: anything from the RDF WG?
14:04:17 <AxelPolleres> topic: liaison
14:04:20 <bglimm> Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:04:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see cbuilara
14:04:33 <cbuilara> AndyS: discussion on semantics, they are coming to a conclusion...
14:04:57 <AxelPolleres> topic: test corrections
14:04:58 <chimezie> chimezie has joined #sparql
14:05:10 <chimezie> Zakim, mute me
14:05:10 <Zakim> sorry, chimezie, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
14:05:12 <AndyS> "they *were* coming to a conclusion" ... but now ?!??
14:05:12 <AxelPolleres> mail from greg http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2012JulSep/0200.html
14:05:19 <chimezie> Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:05:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see cbuilara
14:05:20 <AxelPolleres> Re-approve :dawg-delete-using-02a, :dawg-delete-using-06a
14:05:33 <AndyS> What about the other unapproved tests?
14:06:07 <chimezie> Zakim, who is here?
14:06:07 <Zakim> On the phone I see cbuilara
14:06:08 <Zakim> On IRC I see chimezie, MattPerry, bglimm, ArthurK, AxelPolleres, Zakim, RRSAgent, cbuilara, MacTed, SteveH, AndyS, ericP, kasei, trackbot, sandro
14:06:47 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/data-sparql11/delete/manifest.ttl
14:07:37 <cbuilara> AxelPolleres: any vote for reapproving these two test cases?
14:08:12 <cbuilara> kasei: I only changed the comments
14:08:23 <cbuilara> AxelPolleres: are these test cases pass?
14:08:46 <cbuilara> kasei: yes, by at least Andy and me (Greg)
14:08:59 <cbuilara> kasei: others did not have enoughtime
14:09:07 <AxelPolleres> PROPOSED : re-approve dawg-delete-using-02a  and dawg-delete-using-06a
14:09:09 <AndyS> q+ to ask how many unapproved tests there are (that need approving)
14:09:26 <cbuilara> AxelPolleres: should we reapprove them?
14:10:03 <cbuilara> kasei: there are two query, all protocol, all entailment to re-approve?
14:10:14 <chimezie> chimezie has joined #sparql
14:10:26 <cbuilara> AxelPolleres: for CR we need them?
14:10:43 <kasei> q+
14:10:44 <cbuilara> sandro: we need a test suite for CR, or at least some of them
14:10:52 <AndyS> ack me
14:10:52 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask how many unapproved tests there are (that need approving)
14:11:11 <cbuilara> kasei: for everything but graph store (and maybe entailment) we have the tests
14:11:25 <kasei> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/implementations/
14:12:42 <AxelPolleres> syntax-query/manifest#test_61a, syntax-query/manifest#test_62a
14:13:36 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/data-sparql11/syntax-query/manifest.ttl
14:14:41 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/data-sparql11/syntax-query/syntax-BINDscope7.rq
14:14:44 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/data-sparql11/syntax-query/syntax-BINDscope8.rq
14:15:50 <cbuilara> AxelPolleres: can we approve them?
14:15:55 <kasei> +1
14:15:57 <AxelPolleres> PROPOSED: approve syntax-query/manifest#test_61a, syntax-query/manifest#test_62a
14:16:10 <AxelPolleres> +1
14:16:53 <bglimm> +1
14:16:55 <MattPerry> +1
14:17:02 <cbuilara> +1
14:17:20 <AndyS> +1
14:17:30 <chimezie> +1
14:17:44 <AxelPolleres> RESOLVED: approve syntax-query/manifest#test_61a, syntax-query/manifest#test_62a
14:19:04 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/data-sparql11/delete/manifest.ttl
14:19:22 <AxelPolleres> PROPOSED : approve dawg-delete-using-02a  and dawg-delete-using-06a
14:19:34 <kasei> +1
14:20:20 <AxelPolleres> +1
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14:21:58 <AndyS> +1
14:22:03 <chimezie> chimezie has joined #sparql
14:22:15 <cbuilara> AxelPolleres: anybody else?
14:22:36 <AxelPolleres> RESOLVED: approve dawg-delete-using-02a  and dawg-delete-using-06a
14:22:58 <cbuilara> AxelPolleres: Greg and Andy, note that in the query and update part
14:23:17 <cbuilara> kasei: I can make the changes in the manifest
14:23:32 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: greg to make changes in the manifest on newly approved tests, also cleaning up commented test cases replaced.
14:23:46 <cbuilara> AxelPolleres: what about the protocol tests?
14:23:52 <trackbot> Created ACTION-683 - Make changes in the manifest on newly approved tests, also cleaning up commented test cases replaced. [on Gregory Williams - due 2012-10-02].
14:24:29 <cbuilara> kasei: I haven't got reports about people hosting them
14:24:43 <cbuilara> kasei: my implementation pass most of them, but not all
14:24:55 <cbuilara> kasei: I will contact Andy offline to get this done
14:25:15 <cbuilara> AxelPolleres: we need two implementations before we approve them
14:25:30 <cbuilara> AxelPolleres: entailment regimes, we focus on those tests after publication
14:25:58 <cbuilara> bglimm: we need probably test with documentation
14:26:06 <cbuilara> AxelPolleres: how do we proceed there
14:26:29 <cbuilara> bglimm: it is a bit early but we can update the documentation about how the marking was done
14:26:55 <cbuilara> bglimm: I can send an update of the document
14:27:08 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: Birte send an update on http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/README.html regarding Entailment tests.
14:27:25 <cbuilara> AxelPolleres: what does it mean we need a test suite?
14:27:51 <cbuilara> sandro: I do not know whether to go to CR with a test suite, it would be nice
14:27:53 <trackbot> Created ACTION-684 - Send an update on http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/README.html regarding Entailment tests. [on Birte Glimm - due 2012-10-02].
14:28:23 <cbuilara> bglimm: do you think you will have a set of tests before next telco?
14:28:31 <cbuilara> bglimm: yes, I have a complete test suite
14:29:00 <cbuilara> AxelPolleres: any volunter to review entailment tests?
14:29:17 <cbuilara> chimezie: I'm working on that
14:29:50 <cbuilara> bglimm: tests can be run with different regimes, now I run them with direct semantics
14:30:18 <cbuilara> AxelPolleres: tell what tests pase and somebody to review those
14:30:48 <cbuilara> bglimm: I sent a list of tests cases my implementation passes
14:31:29 <cbuilara> AxelPolleres: somebody to review entailment tests?
14:31:44 <cbuilara> AxelPolleres: I will try to do this
14:31:56 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: Axel to review entailment tests which have at least one pass, such that we can approve them nexty week
14:32:16 <trackbot> Created ACTION-685 - Review entailment tests which have at least one pass, such that we can approve them nexty week [on Axel Polleres - due 2012-10-02].
14:33:05 <cbuilara> sandro: I don't know if whether the group decided the criteria to CR
14:33:17 <sandro> PROPOSED: For all SPARQL 1.1 specs, our CR Exit criterion (that is: sufficient evidence of implementation): each of the tests which have been officially approved by the WG is passed by two or more implementations. 
14:33:31 <kasei> q+
14:33:46 <cbuilara> sandro: we should formalize the requirements to go to CR
14:35:02 <AxelPolleres> +1
14:35:04 <sandro> +1
14:35:06 <chimezie> +1
14:35:08 <MattPerry> +1
14:35:09 <ericP> +1
14:35:11 <AndyS> +1
14:35:12 <cbuilara> kasei: I did not know wether it is important to have implementations passing the tests out of the WG (it is not)
14:35:17 <cbuilara> +1
14:35:18 <kasei> +1
14:35:24 <sandro> RESOLVED: For all SPARQL 1.1 specs, our CR Exit criterion (that is: sufficient evidence of implementation): each of the tests which have been officially approved by the WG is passed by two or more implementations. 
14:35:25 <ArthurK> +1
14:35:31 <AndyS> I hope we will have external reports.
14:35:40 <sandro> indeed.
14:35:41 <AxelPolleres> topic: comments
14:35:48 <AxelPolleres> RC-2
14:36:50 <AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2010Sep/0002.html
14:37:05 <cbuilara> kasei: I send an email summarizing, I talked to him offline, he is not happy at all about the suggestion I made, continues to add a normative language as the format for errors, I do not really see a value of doing that
14:37:45 <cbuilara> AxelPolleres: it is not an option to follow Richard's advice
14:37:55 <cbuilara> AxelPolleres: it is too late and there is no technical agreement
14:38:27 <cbuilara> kasei: it is too late because we delayed the protocol document
14:39:05 <cbuilara> AxelPolleres: it is only an example about errors we have
14:39:54 <cbuilara> kasei: it may be an issue about the status messages
14:40:05 <cbuilara> AxelPolleres: this is off the table in the group
14:40:26 <cbuilara> kasei: changing the examples will be good, but Richard will think that this is not enough
14:40:41 <cbuilara> AxelPolleres: we could put something in the future work
14:41:22 <cbuilara> AxelPolleres: can you draft the response?
14:41:59 <cbuilara> kasei: I can try, but maybe he is upset at me
14:42:16 <cbuilara> kasei: I will do it if nobody else can do it
14:42:38 <cbuilara> AxelPolleres: Greg to sync up with Lee about this issue
14:43:52 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: greg to sync with Lee on drafting a response to RC-2
14:44:09 <cbuilara> sandro: I think that using HTTP error messages is weird
14:44:12 <trackbot> Created ACTION-686 - Sync with Lee on drafting a response to RC-2 [on Gregory Williams - due 2012-10-02].
14:44:26 <cbuilara> kasei: I'm happy in reverting the changes
14:44:37 <AxelPolleres> RV-10
14:46:07 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/CommentResponse:RV-10
14:46:32 <cbuilara> AxelPolleres: only thing open was what is the behavior of blank nodes in QuadData, we should add some explanation in the spec
14:47:23 <AxelPolleres> INSERT DATA { GRAPH :g1  { _:b :p :o }         	      GRAPH :g2  { _:b :p :o } } ;
14:47:26 <AndyS> I don't see any changes to update since 9/9 - are the editorial changes outstanding?
14:47:34 <cbuilara> AxelPolleres: essentially the question is what happens if you insert the data before 
14:47:44 <AxelPolleres> INSERT DATA { GRAPH :g1  { _:b :p :o } } ; INSERT DATA { GRAPH :g2  { _:b :p :o } } 
14:48:22 <cbuilara> AxelPolleres: from my perspective we haven't written the formal semantics, I want to know what the implementers think
14:49:20 <cbuilara> AxelPolleres: some of the blank nodes in the operations would be different
14:50:00 <cbuilara> kasei: I agree that AndyS does this, my implementation does it
14:50:56 <cbuilara> AxelPolleres: I will make this commit today (the editorial change)
14:51:03 <cbuilara> AxelPolleres: we can discuss it offline
14:51:07 <kasei> s/that AndyS does this/with Andys/
14:51:23 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: Axel to make editorial edits on update explaining the intended behaviour on bnodes shared across operations
14:51:39 <trackbot> Created ACTION-687 - Make editorial edits on update explaining the intended behaviour on bnodes shared across operations [on Axel Polleres - due 2012-10-02].
14:52:15 <cbuilara> AxelPolleres: I would appreciate if you participate ini the mail discussion
14:52:34 <cbuilara> AndyS: when would you like to have the changes made?
14:52:42 <cbuilara> AxelPolleres: I will try to make them today
14:54:03 <AxelPolleres> topic: final edit requirements
14:54:07 <cbuilara> AxelPolleres: Sandro, is there any progress on the CR page
14:54:18 <cbuilara> sandro: I will try to update the page today
14:54:45 <cbuilara> sandro: this is more about gathering data (implementation reports, comments, etc.)
14:55:36 <cbuilara> AxelPolleres: pending issue: get draft responses out,  get implementation reports ready
14:55:58 <cbuilara> sandro: we should get Richard to not formally object
14:56:15 <AxelPolleres> AOB?
14:56:54 <AxelPolleres> adjourned
14:57:12 <AxelPolleres> rrsagent, make records public
14:57:22 <AxelPolleres> carlos, will you do the common scribe stuff?
14:57:46 <cbuilara> yes
14:58:42 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: Axel to check Birte's README edits on entailment tests
14:58:47 <trackbot> Created ACTION-688 - Check Birte's README edits on entailment tests [on Axel Polleres - due 2012-10-02].
14:58:54 <cbuilara> RRSAgent, generate minutes
14:58:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/25-sparql-minutes.html cbuilara
14:59:09 <AxelPolleres> thanks carlos for scribing!
14:59:40 <cbuilara> :)
15:02:50 <cbuilara> rssagent, draft minutes
15:03:12 <cbuilara> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:03:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/25-sparql-minutes.html cbuilara
15:03:37 <cbuilara> RRSAgent, please make these logs public
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