15:48:11 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-techs-tf
15:48:11 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/09/17-html-techs-tf-irc
15:48:19 <Joshue108> zakim, this is 9224
15:48:19 <Zakim> Joshue108, I see WAI_HTML TT()11:30AM in the schedule but not yet started.  Perhaps you mean "this will be 9224".
15:48:25 <Joshue108> zakim, this will be 9224
15:48:25 <Zakim> ok, Joshue108; I see WAI_HTML TT()11:30AM scheduled to start 18 minutes ago
15:48:41 <Joshue108> rrsagent, make log world
15:48:52 <Joshue108> Meeting: HTML Techniques TF
15:48:57 <Joshue108> Chair: Joshue
15:49:06 <Joshue108> agenda + Please answer the survey below which contains 1 question.
15:49:06 <Joshue108> * https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/aria_10_9_2012/
15:49:18 <Joshue108> agenda +
15:49:18 <Joshue108> *Discussion on approach for developing technique for valuemin and valuemax for 3.3.1 and 3.3.3.
15:49:35 <Joshue108> agenda + *Discussion on approach for developing technique for valuemin and valuemax for 3.3.1 and 3.3.3.
15:49:42 <Joshue108> zakim, drop 1 and 2
15:49:42 <Zakim> I don't understand 'drop 1 and 2', Joshue108
15:49:47 <Joshue108> zakim, drop item 1
15:49:47 <Zakim> agendum 1, *Discussion on approach for developing technique for valuemin and valuemax for 3.3.1 and 3.3.3., dropped
15:49:51 <Joshue108> zakim, drop item 2
15:49:51 <Zakim> agendum 2, https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/aria_10_9_2012/, dropped
15:49:55 <Joshue108> agenda?
15:58:58 <Detlev> Detlev has joined #html-techs-tf
15:59:24 <Zakim> WAI_HTML TT()11:30AM has now started
15:59:31 <Zakim> +??P4
15:59:36 <Joshue108> zakim, ?P4 is Joshue
15:59:36 <Zakim> sorry, Joshue108, I do not recognize a party named '?P4'
15:59:41 <Joshue108> zakim, ?PP4 is Joshue
15:59:41 <Zakim> sorry, Joshue108, I do not recognize a party named '?PP4'
15:59:48 <Joshue108> zakim, ??P4 is Joshue
15:59:48 <Zakim> +Joshue; got it
16:00:02 <Joshue108> zakim, mute me
16:00:02 <Zakim> sorry, Joshue108, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
16:00:47 <Zakim> + +49.403.17.aaaa
16:00:52 <Zakim> +James_Nurthen
16:01:01 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #html-techs-tf
16:01:13 <Detlev> Zakim, aaaa is Detlev
16:01:13 <Zakim> +Detlev; got it
16:01:18 <jamesn> zakim, who is on the call?
16:01:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see Joshue, Detlev, James_Nurthen
16:02:49 <Loretta> Loretta has joined #html-techs-tf
16:03:24 <Zakim> +??P14
16:03:40 <jamesn> zakim, ??P14 is Loretta
16:03:40 <Zakim> +Loretta; got it
16:05:06 <jamesn> zakim, who is on the call?
16:05:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see Joshue, Detlev, James_Nurthen, Loretta
16:05:11 <marcjohlic> marcjohlic has joined #html-techs-tf
16:06:14 <Detlev> scribenick: Detlev
16:06:31 <Zakim> +Marc_Johlic
16:06:39 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
16:06:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/17-html-techs-tf-minutes.html jamesn
16:06:57 <Detlev> Zakim, who is scribe?
16:06:57 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, Detlev.
16:07:41 <Joshue108> zakim, take up item 1
16:07:41 <Zakim> agendum 1. "*Discussion on approach for developing technique for valuemin and valuemax for 3.3.1 and 3.3.3." taken up [from Joshue108]
16:08:06 <jamesn> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/aria_10_9_2012/results
16:08:29 <Detlev> Mark: has comments on techniques proposed (looking)
16:09:05 <Detlev> Mark: We should have siple examples that don"t get buried under scripting
16:10:19 <Detlev> james: Some examples can do without DOM scripting
16:10:34 <Detlev> Loretta: agrees
16:11:33 <jamesn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_WAI-ARIA_range_attributes_for_range_widgets_such_as_progressbar,_scrollbar,_slider,_and_spinbutton
16:11:48 <Detlev> Discussing range techniques (Loretta)
16:12:26 <Detlev> Josh: Does show real-word implementation
16:12:49 <Detlev> Loretta: suggests the existing example but add a simpler one as well
16:14:02 <Detlev> Loretta: struggeld to make it fit into error handling
16:14:22 <Detlev> Josh: how does this example fit into error handling?
16:15:03 <Detlev> Loretta: Let the browser provide error handling (above or below min and max)
16:15:24 <Detlev> James: the browser won"t do anything with the aria values...
16:15:56 <Detlev> James: AT can support handing of input 
16:16:42 <Detlev> James: thinks it better fits into Labels & instructions 3.3.2
16:16:51 <jamesn> http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/NOTE-UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20-20120103/minimize-error-suggestions.html
16:16:58 <Joshue108> http://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/minimize-error-suggestions.html
16:17:10 <Joshue108> SNAP
16:18:06 <Detlev> Josh: input errors creating automatic errorsuggestions..?
16:18:38 <Detlev> james: the widgets wold need scripting to provide that
16:18:53 <Detlev> Marc: does it need scripting to us min and max value?
16:19:22 <Detlev> James: the screenreader would not automatically reject input outside the range
16:20:20 <Detlev> Josh: we should try to minimise scripting in examples where possilbe
16:21:11 <Detlev> Marc: scrioting in range example shows to dynamically add min and max and current values but it isn't doing any error checking
16:22:25 <Detlev> James: in the exisitng openajax examples it is impossilbe to enter an incorrect value
16:22:44 <Detlev> Loretta: falls into error prevention category
16:24:03 <Detlev> things in the descriotion would need more scripting to be implemented - begs the question where the resource is to implement that
16:24:09 <Detlev> that was Josh
16:24:32 <Detlev> LOretta: does anyone know code we could referrence?
16:25:40 <Detlev> Josh: check current value should be role of the assistive technology
16:26:31 <Detlev> James: explains what values do in assistive technoogy (too much too quick to write down)...
16:26:38 <Joshue108> http://hanshillen.github.com/jqtest/#goto_slider
16:27:14 <Detlev> Josh: discusses Hans hillen example 
16:27:30 <Detlev> Loretta: add as resouce
16:27:47 <Detlev> James page up and page down the wrong way round?..
16:28:16 <Detlev> Lorett: do we need to add error checking code?
16:28:36 <Detlev> Loratta: or should it be a separate technique?
16:28:48 <Detlev> Josh: Separate tech, but connected
16:29:30 <Detlev> Josh: will need to be taken up by AT to become useful
16:30:01 <Detlev> Josh: JAWS support doc doesn't even mention min/max
16:30:01 <jamesn> http://files.freedomscientific.com/beta/JAWS/StartM/ARIA_JAWS14.htm
16:30:43 <Detlev> Josh: that may have changed with JAWS 14 (better ARIA support)
16:31:37 <Detlev> James: runs JAWS 13 on Loretta's page...
16:32:23 <Detlev> James: have to start Firefox after JAWs otherwise it doesn't do anything
16:32:34 <Detlev> James: didn't read the min and max
16:32:44 <Detlev> (that was JAWS)
16:33:20 <Detlev> Josh: everything by Hans is all scripted it is not yet picked up by screen readers
16:33:52 <Detlev> Loretta: maybe add note that scripting needs to be provided to make it work
16:34:19 <Detlev> Josh: its quite complex - may be put it in the pile and wait for better support?
16:34:50 <Detlev> Josh: may be other better supported examples?
16:35:23 <Detlev> Loretta: the question about the scripting for error checking to make the example work remains, orthogonal
16:35:38 <Detlev> Loretta: alert example..
16:36:20 <Detlev> Josh: error message in the message (HTML 5)? light scripting...?
16:36:30 <Detlev> Loretta: merge with other example?
16:36:42 <Detlev> James: points out there is zero support...?
16:37:25 <Detlev> James: trying screen reader again to check output
16:38:22 <Detlev> JAWS - "progress bar value in dollars etc ... James no support on VoiceOver
16:39:01 <Detlev> Josh: openajax discussing role: application cursor problem..
16:39:35 <Detlev> Slider shouldn"t be used with role:application
16:39:56 <Detlev> James: you don"t need to goes automaticallz into forms mode when it encounters such items
16:40:39 <Joshue108> s/automaticallz/automatically
16:40:51 <Detlev> Josh: not sure if examples in aria value-min / valuemax are suitable 
16:41:03 <Joshue108> http://oaa-accessibility.org/example/32/
16:42:05 <Detlev> James: these examples probab;y can"t be a sufficient technique yet because they are nit sufficiently AT supported
16:42:25 <Detlev> James: no luck in NVADA, JAWS and VO
16:42:53 <Joshue108> s/NVADA/NVDA
16:43:10 <Detlev> Loretta: lets add wht we have learned to User Agent Notes, lets take that to the WG as a general issue
16:43:27 <Joshue108> s/wht/what
16:43:41 <Joshue108> +1 to Loretta
16:43:41 <Detlev> James: it is often split, some parts might have enough AT support others not
16:43:57 <Detlev> Loretta: well need a generic discussion
16:44:10 <Detlev> Josh will work on the technique
16:44:31 <Detlev> Josh: add note on use of role: application?
16:44:53 <Detlev> Josh: will add note
16:45:20 <Detlev> Loretta: Can contribute to ARIA technology note, independent of any technique
16:45:30 <Joshue108> ACTION: Josh to start work on ARIA notes doc
16:45:58 <Detlev> Bby: gotas gottas gottas
16:47:22 <Detlev> Marc: question - was reading in the background - ATs are the ones expected to do the calc for valuenow based on value min and max - correct?
16:47:47 <Detlev> Value text should be used if vlauemin and max are not known
16:48:09 <Detlev> Josh: not sure - not kniown if AT can do something like that wothoutr use of scripting
16:48:40 <Detlev> the atr are just placeholders for author-specified values which scripting cn that use 
16:48:52 <Detlev> James: has heard of that percentage calculation
16:49:05 <Detlev> Josh: what context?
16:49:35 <Joshue108> s/kniown/known
16:49:38 <Detlev> james: a value was calculated based on valuue min and max, give out percentage complete
16:50:16 <Detlev> Aside: sory some of the tech parts might be incorrect, not be familiar enough with this stuff...
16:50:25 <Joshue108> s/wothoutr/without
16:50:36 <Joshue108> s/cn/can
16:50:49 <Joshue108> s/atr/
16:52:07 <Detlev> Josh: discussing TPAC participants
16:52:32 <Detlev> James, Loretta not present then
16:53:21 <Detlev> Small TPAC Meeting Thu 1 November 
16:53:28 <Joshue108> zakim, take up item 2
16:53:28 <Zakim> agendum 2. "https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/aria_10_9_2012/" taken up [from Joshue108]
16:53:31 <Detlev> Jodh next actino items
16:53:42 <Joshue108> zakim, take up item 4
16:53:42 <Zakim> agendum 4. "*Discussion on approach for developing technique for valuemin and valuemax for 3.3.1 and 3.3.3." taken up [from Joshue108]
16:54:31 <Joshue108> s/Jodh next actino/Josh next action
16:55:04 <Joshue108> Detlev: I am working on updating some techniques.
16:55:43 <Detlev> Josh will do 'sping cleaning', to-do-list
16:56:03 <Detlev> Loretta: is there progrss on active-descendant technique
16:56:13 <Detlev> Josh: will enquire
16:56:53 <Joshue108> Josh: I'll ping Adam to check on his progress
16:57:12 <Zakim> -Joshue
16:57:13 <Zakim> -Detlev
16:57:13 <Zakim> -Loretta
16:57:15 <Zakim> -James_Nurthen
16:57:16 <Zakim> -Marc_Johlic
16:57:17 <Zakim> WAI_HTML TT()11:30AM has ended
16:57:17 <Zakim> Attendees were Joshue, +49.403.17.aaaa, James_Nurthen, Detlev, Loretta, Marc_Johlic
16:57:22 <Joshue108> rrsagent, make minutes
16:57:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/17-html-techs-tf-minutes.html Joshue108
17:34:04 <Joshue108> Joshue108 has joined #html-techs-tf