IRC log of wcag2ict on 2012-09-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:59:31 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #wcag2ict
13:59:31 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/09/14-wcag2ict-irc
13:59:33 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs world
13:59:33 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #wcag2ict
13:59:35 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be 2428
13:59:35 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
13:59:36 [trackbot]: Meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
13:59:36 [trackbot]: Date: 14 September 2012
13:59:49 [shadi]: zakim, who is on the phone?
13:59:49 [Zakim]: WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM has not yet started, shadi
13:59:50 [Zakim]: On IRC I see RRSAgent, MaryJo, shadi, trackbot
14:00:08 [Kiran]: Kiran has joined #wcag2ict
14:00:50 [Zakim]: WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM has now started
14:00:55 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
14:00:58 [Zakim]: +Mary_Jo_Mueller
14:01:11 [Zakim]: +Kiran_Kaja
14:01:27 [alex_]: alex_ has joined #wcag2ict
14:01:35 [Mike]: Mike has joined #wcag2ict
14:02:01 [Zakim]: +Shadi
14:02:09 [janina]: janina has joined #wcag2ict
14:02:16 [janina]: trackbot, start meeting
14:02:18 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs world
14:02:20 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be 2428
14:02:20 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago
14:02:21 [trackbot]: Meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
14:02:21 [trackbot]: Date: 14 September 2012
14:02:32 [shadi]: zakim, microsoft has alex
14:02:32 [Zakim]: sorry, shadi, I do not recognize a party named 'microsoft'
14:02:48 [janina]: zakim, who's here?
14:02:48 [Zakim]: I notice WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM has restarted
14:02:49 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Mary_Jo_Mueller, [Microsoft], Kiran_Kaja, Shadi, ??P10
14:02:49 [Zakim]: On IRC I see janina, Mike, alex_, Kiran, Zakim, RRSAgent, MaryJo, shadi, trackbot
14:03:05 [Zakim]: +??P12
14:03:11 [shadi]: zakim, Microsoft has alex_
14:03:11 [Zakim]: +alex_; got it
14:03:18 [shadi]: zakim, ??p12 is Mike
14:03:18 [Zakim]: +Mike; got it
14:03:20 [janina]: zakim, ??P10 is Janina_Sajka
14:03:20 [Zakim]: +Janina_Sajka; got it
14:03:21 [korn]: korn has joined #wcag2ict
14:03:26 [janina]: zakim, who's on the phone?
14:03:26 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Mary_Jo_Mueller, [Microsoft], Kiran_Kaja, Shadi, Janina_Sajka, Mike
14:03:29 [Zakim]: [Microsoft] has alex_
14:03:35 [greggvanderheiden]: greggvanderheiden has joined #wcag2ict
14:03:40 [shadi]: zakim, mute me
14:03:40 [Zakim]: Shadi should now be muted
14:03:43 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
14:03:53 [shadi]: ack me
14:04:26 [greggvanderheiden]: zakim [ip is gregg
14:04:28 [shadi]: zakim, ipcaller is greggvanderheiden
14:04:28 [Zakim]: +greggvanderheiden; got it
14:05:00 [Zakim]: +David_MacDonald
14:05:02 [shadi]: zakim, mute me
14:05:02 [Zakim]: Shadi should now be muted
14:05:37 [David]: David has joined #wcag2ict
14:06:08 [MaryJo]: scribe: MaryJo
14:06:23 [Mike]: agenda+ Survey on Review Process [2]
14:06:28 [MaryJo]: chair: Mike Pluke
14:06:34 [Mike]: agenda+ Status report on the reviewing
14:06:44 [Mike]: agenda+ Survey for September 14 Meeting “user agent” (survey + proposal) + Page Titled (2.4.2)
14:06:50 [Zakim]: +[Oracle]
14:06:57 [korn]: Zakim, Oracle has Peter_Korn
14:06:57 [Zakim]: +Peter_Korn; got it
14:07:00 [Mike]: agenda+ Action Items, beginning with ACTION-44 [4]
14:07:12 [Mike]: agenda+ Confirm next meeting time; action items;
14:07:21 [Mike]: adjourn
14:07:56 [shadi]: ack me
14:08:44 [MichaelC]: MichaelC has joined #wcag2ict
14:08:47 [MaryJo]: regrets: Andi_Snow-Weaver, Loic_Martinez, Allan_Hoffman, Bruce_Baily
14:12:17 [MaryJo]: zakim, next item
14:12:17 [Zakim]: agendum 1. "Survey on Review Process" taken up [from 2]
14:12:22 [shadi]: zakim, mute me
14:12:22 [Zakim]: Shadi should now be muted
14:13:35 [MaryJo]: From 17 September onwards Andi should be the focal point for comments.
14:14:42 [MaryJo]: RESOLUTION: Accept the survey review process with comments from Mike documented in the survey.
14:15:18 [MaryJo]: zakim next item
14:15:26 [MaryJo]: zakim, next item
14:15:26 [Zakim]: agendum 2. "Status report on the reviewing" taken up [from Mike]
14:16:00 [Mike]: https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/35422/WD-wcag2ict-20120727/?status=open&
14:16:20 [MaryJo]: Mary Jo and Mike have entered all of the comments from the WCAG2ICT list.
14:16:40 [MaryJo]: There are now 32 comments logged.
14:16:45 [MaryJo]: q+
14:17:58 [MaryJo]: We can now start proposing responses to the comments. Volunteers are needed to help out.
14:18:41 [Mike]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-comments-wcag20/
14:19:24 [MaryJo]: There are more comments from the WCAG20 list that still need to be entered.
14:19:59 [MaryJo]: However, we can get started on the responses for issues already entered.
14:20:15 [Zakim]: +Judy
14:20:27 [Judy]: Judy has joined #wcag2ict
14:21:32 [MaryJo]: We need to figure out how to sort the comments by section to make it easier to group the comments.
14:23:17 [MaryJo]: q-
14:23:26 [MaryJo]: zakim, next item.
14:23:26 [Zakim]: agendum 3. "Survey for September 14 Meeting “user agent” (survey + proposal) + Page Titled (2.4.2)" taken up [from Mike]
14:23:30 [Mike]: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/20120913/results
14:23:55 [greggvanderheiden]: q+
14:26:51 [MaryJo]: There is a concern about the circularity of user agent definition using 'content' and 'content' using 'user agent'.
14:28:05 [greggvanderheiden]: NOTE: Content is not just information but also functionality. So the functionality of software is also content.
14:28:33 [MaryJo]: This isn't a major issue, but there is a need for a note to clarify 'user agent' and possibly also 'content' to make it clear how these relate to software.
14:29:07 [MaryJo]: s/This isn't a major issue/The circularity isn't a major issue/
14:29:11 [greggvanderheiden]: So information that is not active (has no code) can be information only and not software. But all software is both software and content.
14:29:18 [greggvanderheiden]: q+
14:30:19 [korn]: q+
14:32:25 [greggvanderheiden]: Provisions that apply to content would apply to passive documents and software. Provisions that refer to software would not apply to passive documents without interaction (code).
14:32:37 [korn]: q-
14:32:57 [greggvanderheiden]: For example: a Text only document would be content but not software.
14:33:27 [MaryJo]: The note needs some concrete examples to help procurers understand the concept.
14:33:27 [greggvanderheiden]: An interactive book and a word processing program would be both software and content.
14:34:24 [greggvanderheiden]: because both contain information and active elements.
14:34:30 [korn]: q+
14:34:38 [greggvanderheiden]: ack g
14:35:21 [greggvanderheiden]: aside from any information put in by users.
14:36:17 [greggvanderheiden]: (e.g. dialogs, instructions, form labels etc.)
14:38:54 [greggvanderheiden]: NOTE: Content is not just information but also functionality. So the functionality of software is also content. So information that is not active (has no code) can be information only and not software. But all software is both software and content. Provisions that apply to content would apply to passive documents and software. Provisions that refer to software would not apply to passive documents without interaction (code). An
14:38:55 [greggvanderheiden]: interactive book and a word processing program would be both software and content. For example: a Text only document would be content but not software. An interactive book and a word processing program would be both software and content aside from any information put in by users. (e.g. dialogs, instructions, form labels etc.)
14:39:52 [MaryJo]: ACTION: korn to Propose note for 'user agent' to clarify software usage - 21 September 2012
14:39:52 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-61 - Propose note for 'user agent' to clarify software usage - 21 September 2012 [on Peter Korn - due 2012-09-21].
14:40:56 [MaryJo]: topic: Page titled
14:41:02 [MaryJo]: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/20120913/results#xq1
14:41:04 [greggvanderheiden]: s/user agent' / user agent' and 'content' /
14:42:11 [korn]: Chagned to it be: "Propose notes for both 'user agent' and 'content' to clarify software usage; work with Gregg, Loic, and Mike"
14:43:36 [korn]: q+
14:44:37 [MaryJo]: The 4.1.2 approach to meeting 2.4.2 breaks down because this SC isn't just for blind people, but is also for sighted people.
14:46:00 [Mike]: q+
14:46:12 [korn]: q-
14:46:47 [korn]: q+
14:48:28 [MaryJo]: For the 4 remaining SC, we can get through them if we examine what they mean.
14:49:28 [korn]: Gregg - once you do this overview, I think we need to revisit each of them (likely starting with Page Titled)
14:50:01 [MaryJo]: 2.4.2 Page titles - Web pages are often an entire application, so a software application is parallel to that.
14:53:50 [MaryJo]: If we don't replace single words but replace a phrase, the other SC become more straightforward to translate - 3.2.3, 2.4.5, and 2.4.1.
14:55:44 [greggvanderheiden]: q+
14:55:52 [greggvanderheiden]: ack m
14:56:16 [korn]: q-
14:56:17 [korn]: q+
14:56:57 [MaryJo]: The title field is not visible. A document's file name could count. It is the user agent that decides what to show to the user.
14:57:21 [MaryJo]: WCAG can't control that which is shown to the user.
14:57:35 [MaryJo]: s/that which/which/
14:59:00 [MaryJo]: There could be a mode in which the title is shown or not shown. Where does it have to be shown. GUI would have the title in the window title. Mobile doesn't even show the file name.
14:59:23 [MaryJo]: s/file name/file name or title/
14:59:58 [MaryJo]: Outside the windowing software world, titles aren't typically shown.
15:00:18 [greggvanderheiden]: q?
15:00:23 [greggvanderheiden]: ack g
15:00:26 [greggvanderheiden]: ack k
15:00:31 [greggvanderheiden]: q?
15:01:28 [greggvanderheiden]: q+
15:01:40 [MaryJo]: Some commenters on our WCAG2ICT document want to see our thinking on the SC rather than just the word substitutions.
15:02:10 [MaryJo]: We think about the various use cases, which would be inciteful to others.
15:03:59 [greggvanderheiden]: ack s
15:04:46 [korn]: q+
15:06:30 [MaryJo]: We could add rationale or working group notes to our document.
15:06:44 [greggvanderheiden]: ack g
15:07:08 [shadi]: zakim, mute me
15:07:08 [Zakim]: Shadi was already muted, shadi
15:08:00 [greggvanderheiden]: Note: An electronic document's filename, as well as its title field (as supported by the document format and its viewers, if any), are both considered types of titles. While the filename is more universally presented by assistive technologies, the [title field] is more formally correct. Using both provides the best chance of being accessible to different users.
15:08:56 [korn]: Perhaps we might start adding a new field to all of our SCs -> "Rationale"
15:08:57 [greggvanderheiden]: Note: An electronic document's filename, as well as its title field (as supported by the document format, if any, and its viewers), are both considered types of titles. While the filename is more universally presented by assistive technologies, the title field is more formally correct. Using both provides the best chance of being accessible to different users.
15:09:21 [alex_]: q+
15:09:54 [greggvanderheiden]: Note: An electronic document's filename, as well as its title field (as supported by the document format, if any, and its viewers), are both considered types of titles. While the filename is more universally presented by assistive technologies, the title field is more formally correct. Using both provides the best chance of being accessible to different users, but only one is required
15:12:34 [MaryJo]: Proposal made to add a rationale to the SC as we work on them and reach resolution, at least for our internal document. We should start by adding a Rationale section in the WIKI.
15:13:22 [MaryJo]: In this case, in the non-Web world, the title isn't always shown in the window title.
15:13:26 [greggvanderheiden]: TASK FORCE NOTES: In doing this one we were made aware of the importance of the title being visible as well as accessible to assistive technologies so that people with mild low vision or cognitive disabilities can also use it for orientation.
15:14:36 [greggvanderheiden]: TASK FORCE NOTES: It is important to make the title visible as well as accessible to assistive technologies so that people with mild low vision or cognitive disabilities can also use it for orientation.
15:15:10 [korn]: q-
15:16:09 [korn]: q+
15:16:09 [greggvanderheiden]: Note: An electronic document's filename, as well as its title field (as supported by the document format, if any, and its viewers), are both considered types of titles. While the filename is more universally presented by assistive technologies, the title field is more formally correct. Using both provides the best chance of being accessible to different users, but only one is required. TASK FORCE NOTES: It is important to make the
15:16:10 [greggvanderheiden]: title visible as well as accessible to assistive technologies so that people with mild low vision or cognitive disabilities can also use it for orientation.
15:16:19 [MaryJo]: Within a document there could also be a title indicated by using the title styling or attribute at the top of the contents of the document.
15:17:19 [David]: q+
15:17:38 [greggvanderheiden]: Note: An electronic document's filename, as well as its title field and other methods for titling a document that are supported by the document format and its viewers, are all considered types of titles. While the filename is more universally presented by assistive technologies, the title field is more formally correct. Using both provides the best chance of being accessible to different users, but only one is required. TASK FORCE
15:17:39 [greggvanderheiden]: NOTES: It is important to make the title visible as well as accessible to assistive technologies so that people with mild low vision or cognitive disabilities can also use it for orientation.
15:18:46 [greggvanderheiden]: For electronic documents this applies directly as written, and as described in INTENT from Understanding WCAG 2.0 (above) replacing "Web pages" with “electronic documents”. Note: An electronic document's filename, as well as its title field and other methods for titling a document that are supported by the document format and its viewers, are all considered types of titles. While the filename is more universally presented by
15:18:46 [greggvanderheiden]: assistive technologies, the title field is more formally correct. Using both provides the best chance of being accessible to different users, but only one is required. TASK FORCE NOTES: It is important to make the title visible as well as accessible to assistive technologies so that people with mild low vision or cognitive disabilities can also use it for orientation.
15:20:42 [greggvanderheiden]: For electronic documents this applies directly as written, and as described in INTENT from Understanding WCAG 2.0 (above) replacing "Web pages" with “electronic documents”. Note: An electronic document's filename, as well as its title field and other methods for titling a document that are supported by the document format and its viewers, are all considered types of titles. TASK FORCE NOTES: It is important to make the title
15:20:42 [greggvanderheiden]: visible as well as accessible to assistive technologies so that people with mild low vision or cognitive disabilities can also use it for orientation.
15:21:07 [korn]: q+
15:21:22 [greggvanderheiden]: ack a
15:21:30 [greggvanderheiden]: ack k
15:22:24 [David]: q-
15:22:38 [greggvanderheiden]: : For electronic documents this applies directly as written, and as described in INTENT from Understanding WCAG 2.0 (above) replacing "Web pages" with “electronic documents”. Note: An electronic document's filename, as well as its title field and other methods for titling a document that are supported by the document format and its viewers, are all considered types of titles. TASK FORCE NOTES: It is important to make the title
15:22:39 [greggvanderheiden]: visible as well as accessible to assistive technologies so that people with mild low vision or cognitive disabilities can also use it for orientation during use.
15:23:55 [MaryJo]: RESOLUTION: Accept 2.4.2 as proposal number 9 for electronic documents.
15:24:11 [MaryJo]: s/as proposal/proposal/
15:25:14 [korn]: q+
15:25:54 [MaryJo]: topic: Gregg's note about the remaining 4 unconcensed SC.
15:27:37 [MaryJo]: A fundamental difference in many UI's with out titles. They have a distinct look that is different from a normal document interface.
15:29:58 [MaryJo]: When a dialog pops up that has no titles, but has controls in it - users with low vision that might not see the whole window at once can have difficulty with them.
15:30:24 [Judy]: [Judy replying back on an earlier question, with info from Michael, regarding sortability of comments: use the "search" function to get comment status. (Will not give you section location.) https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/35422/WD-wcag2ict-20120727/search/
15:31:12 [Judy]: q+
15:31:44 [MaryJo]: We need to think about what WCAG is trying to do to help the user. If the purpose of this SC is for orientation, then how do we do this in the software world?
15:33:20 [Zakim]: -Judy
15:33:59 [Zakim]: -[Microsoft]
15:34:00 [Zakim]: -[Oracle]
15:34:02 [Zakim]: -Shadi
15:34:03 [Zakim]: -Kiran_Kaja
15:34:03 [Zakim]: -David_MacDonald
15:34:04 [Zakim]: -Mary_Jo_Mueller
15:34:05 [Zakim]: -Janina_Sajka
15:34:08 [MaryJo]: zakim, next item
15:34:08 [Zakim]: I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, MaryJo
15:34:09 [janina]: janina has left #wcag2ict
15:34:10 [Zakim]: -Mike
15:34:11 [korn]: korn has left #wcag2ict
15:34:12 [Zakim]: -greggvanderheiden
15:34:13 [Zakim]: WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM has ended
15:34:13 [Zakim]: Attendees were Mary_Jo_Mueller, Kiran_Kaja, Shadi, alex_, Mike, Janina_Sajka, greggvanderheiden, David_MacDonald, Peter_Korn, Judy
15:34:18 [MaryJo]: q
15:34:26 [MaryJo]: ack j
15:34:40 [MaryJo]: zakim, next item
15:34:40 [Zakim]: agendum 4. "Action Items, beginning with ACTION-44" taken up [from 4]
15:34:46 [MaryJo]: Not discussed
15:34:59 [MaryJo]: zakim, close item 4
15:34:59 [Zakim]: agendum 4, Action Items, beginning with ACTION-44, closed
15:35:00 [Zakim]: I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
15:35:00 [Zakim]: 5. Confirm next meeting time; action items; [from Mike]
15:35:10 [MaryJo]: zakim, next item
15:35:10 [Zakim]: agendum 5. "Confirm next meeting time; action items;" taken up [from Mike]
15:35:33 [MaryJo]: Next meeting is Tuesday 18 September, 2012
15:36:34 [MaryJo]: zakim, close item 5
15:36:34 [Zakim]: agendum 5, Confirm next meeting time; action items;, closed
15:36:35 [Zakim]: I see nothing remaining on the agenda
15:36:45 [MaryJo]: rrsagent, make minutes
15:36:45 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/14-wcag2ict-minutes.html MaryJo
15:40:07 [MaryJo]: zakim, bye
15:40:07 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #wcag2ict