14:58:24 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #i18n
14:58:24 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/09/12-i18n-irc
14:58:35 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #i18n
14:58:43 <aphillip> trackbot prepare teleconference
14:59:05 <aphillip> trackbot, prepare teleconference
14:59:07 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:59:09 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 4186
14:59:09 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
14:59:10 <trackbot> Meeting: Internationalization Core Working Group Teleconference
14:59:10 <trackbot> Date: 12 September 2012
14:59:19 <aphillip> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2012JulSep/0126.html
14:59:27 <aphillip> Chair: Addison Phillips
14:59:28 <aphillip> Scribe: Addison Phillips
14:59:29 <matial> matial has joined #i18n
14:59:40 <aphillip> ScribeNick: aphillip
14:59:40 <aharon> aharon has joined #i18n
14:59:46 <aphillip> rrsagent, set logs world-visible
14:59:58 <aphillip> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:59:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/12-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
15:00:22 <aphillip> rrsagent, set logs world
15:00:58 <Zakim> I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM has now started
15:01:05 <Zakim> +Addison_Phillips
15:01:18 <fsasaki> fsasaki has joined #i18n
15:01:22 <aphillip> zakim, I am Addison_Phillips
15:01:24 <Zakim> ok, aphillip, I now associate you with Addison_Phillips
15:01:45 <Zakim> +??P10
15:02:44 <r12a> r12a has joined #i18n
15:03:36 <r12a> zakim, dial richard
15:03:36 <Zakim> ok, r12a; the call is being made
15:03:37 <Zakim> +Richard
15:03:45 <koji> koji has joined #i18n
15:04:02 <r12a> zakim, who's here ?
15:04:02 <Zakim> On the phone I see Addison_Phillips, fsasaki (muted), Richard
15:04:03 <Zakim> On IRC I see koji, r12a, fsasaki, aharon, matial, Zakim, RRSAgent, aphillip, trackbot
15:04:53 <Norbert> Norbert has joined #i18n
15:05:23 <aphillip>  Topic: Agenda and Minutes
15:05:37 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:05:56 <koji> zakim, [ipcaller] is me
15:05:56 <Zakim> +koji; got it
15:05:56 <aphillip> zakim, [IPcaller] is koji
15:05:57 <Zakim> sorry, aphillip, I do not recognize a party named '[IPcaller]'
15:06:05 <aharon> I can't get on the conf call. The machine won't accept 4186.
15:06:36 <r12a> aharon, did you type the # after 4186?
15:06:37 <Norbert> it doesn't accept my call at all
15:06:41 <aharon> yes
15:06:49 <Zakim> +??P20
15:06:58 <r12a> hm, zakim does seem to have been a little problematic recently
15:07:03 <r12a> keep trying
15:07:04 <matial> zakim, ??p20 is me
15:07:04 <Zakim> +matial; got it
15:07:28 <aharon> I've been holding for an operator for a few minutes, but nobody is coming on.
15:09:03 <Norbert> nope; failed 6 or 7 times
15:10:14 <Zakim> +??P25
15:11:14 <r12a> norbert, sounds like the secret is to keep trying
15:11:34 <Zakim> +fantasai
15:11:40 <aphillip> Topic: Action Items
15:12:05 <fantasai> fantasai has joined #i18n
15:12:21 <aphillip>  	Check about Korean layout task force
15:12:26 <Zakim> + +1.415.885.aaaa
15:12:29 <aphillip> koji: pinged, didn't get a response
15:12:43 <aphillip> ... preparing to translate the korean version
15:12:51 <Norbert> Zakim, +1.415 is me
15:12:51 <Zakim> +Norbert; got it
15:13:18 <r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open
15:13:20 <aphillip> ... will ask murata-san about what to do with the document
15:14:10 <aphillip> Work on tidying up Additional Requirements for Bidi in HTML & CSS over coming couple of months
15:15:01 <aphillip>  	Update qa-byte-order-mark document targetting end-of-August for review
15:15:23 <aphillip>  	Prepare some examples of ITS2NIF showing NFC issue for consideration next week
15:15:39 <aphillip>  	Move TURTLE comments to tracker and send the comments to the WG using the usual process
15:15:49 <aphillip> close ACTION-146
15:15:49 <trackbot> ACTION-146 Move TURTLE comments to tracker and send the comments to the WG using the usual process closed
15:16:15 <aphillip> Topic: Info Share
15:16:28 <fsasaki> http://www.dagstuhl.de/en/program/calendar/semhp/?semnr=12362
15:16:40 <aphillip> felix: last week at a seminar
15:16:47 <aphillip> ... multilingual semantic web
15:17:13 <aphillip> ... a kind of specific version of like Dublin ML-Web workshop
15:17:26 <aphillip> ... may be some interesting things to watch in the future
15:17:34 <aphillip> ... such as best pracices
15:18:20 <aphillip> felix: ML-Web LT project sponsoring workshops
15:18:28 <aphillip> ... next one in Rome
15:18:36 <aphillip> ... contact me for info on participation
15:18:46 <r12a> richard would certainly like to be involved
15:18:58 <fsasaki> great, r12a, I'll give you info
15:19:07 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:19:09 <Zakim> -fantasai
15:19:27 <r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/tests/
15:19:33 <fantasai> Zakim, [IPcaller] is fantasai
15:19:33 <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
15:19:36 <aphillip> richard: working on tests before my holiday
15:19:49 <aphillip> ... converted all tests in html5 and css sections (the first two)
15:20:06 <aphillip> ... results pages are all updated live from database 
15:20:09 <aphillip> ... using latest data
15:20:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/12-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
15:20:27 <aphillip> ... stuff we've been changing all done
15:20:36 <fsasaki> update to workshop: it's another MLW workshop in this series http://www.multilingualweb.eu/ , and we just started the program committee work. Let me know if you want more info on that, we very much welcome new PC members
15:20:43 <aphillip> richard: updated whitespace tests, rewriting line-breaking tests
15:20:56 <aphillip> ... made a hash of the JP/CN ones??
15:21:14 <aphillip> ... and just now got ability to remove test results so can correct
15:21:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/12-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
15:21:35 <aphillip> richard: i18n charter review finishes on 14th
15:22:40 <r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-resizing-backgrounds.en.php
15:22:54 <aphillip> richard: someone wanted to translate above article
15:23:05 <aphillip> ... so I updated the above, 'cause it needed it
15:24:03 <aphillip> ... added a couple of newer CSS methods that can be used, added examples
15:24:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/12-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
15:24:23 <Norbert> http://wiki.ecmascript.org/doku.php?id=globalization:specification_drafts
15:24:28 <aphillip> norbert: ecmascript I18N
15:24:33 <aphillip> ... tc39 meeting next week
15:24:45 <aphillip> ... this will be the standard unless you complain now
15:25:19 <aphillip> Topic: Bidi (Isolation etc.)
15:26:14 <aphillip> richard: would be useful to recap what's going on
15:26:25 <aphillip> ... and how that affects advice to html authors
15:26:43 <aphillip> Aharon's update: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-bidi/2012JulSep/0067.html
15:27:45 <aphillip> The editor of the relevant CSS specs (Writing Modes Level 3 and Text Level 3) have already met and worked out the disparity between CSS and Unicode isolates.
15:28:30 <aphillip> aharon: fantasai and I met and she changed both of the above in editor's latest
15:29:13 <aphillip> ... already had isolates, but didn't/couldn't make use of Unicode isolates
15:30:25 <aphillip> aharon: para breaks in isolates now act as para breaks to surrounding para
15:30:42 <aphillip> aharon: and isolates now are a special form of embedding
15:31:18 <aphillip> ... and documents will change again once uax#9/Unicode are updated
15:31:36 <aphillip> ... to explicitly reference how UBA does this
15:32:57 <aphillip> aharon: another bidi issue is that bidi parenthesis algorithm from MSFT
15:33:10 <aphillip> ... they decided to try to add it into uax#9
15:33:28 <koji> fantasai: probably too busy for 6.2 for now but I hope after that
15:33:29 <aphillip> ... some folks at MSFT and Google tasked to provide new version
15:33:57 <aphillip> aharon: very interested in seeing both in at same time
15:34:10 <aphillip> .... to ensure compatibility between the two
15:34:23 <aphillip> ... have talked to msft folks
15:34:31 <aphillip> ... they are implementing isolates
15:34:39 <aphillip> ... so far no problems?
15:35:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/12-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
15:35:23 <aphillip> aharon: parenthesis
15:35:38 <aphillip> ... if typing parens in a bidi para without using controls
15:35:45 <aphillip> ... all sorts of things go wrong
15:36:00 <aphillip> "hello!" -> "!hello"
15:36:20 <aphillip> aharon: and parens in particular were a problem
15:36:45 <aphillip> ... if you have 'BOOK(S)'
15:37:06 <matial> Sorry, I have to quit the call.
15:37:11 <r12a> )book(s WERBEH
15:37:11 <aphillip> ... you sometimes get )BOOK(S
15:37:11 <aphillip> ... and there are some other cases
15:37:17 <Zakim> -matial
15:37:31 <Zakim> -fantasai
15:38:03 <aphillip> aharon: looks for parens pairs and balances their bidi levels (and some other details)
15:38:15 <aphillip> ... so that they match
15:38:43 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:38:46 <aphillip> ... all of the mirroring enclosing punctuation
15:39:16 <r12a> zakim, who's making noise?
15:39:28 <Zakim> r12a, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [IPcaller] (26%)
15:40:13 <aphillip> aharon: a negative side effect is that UBA gets harder
15:40:25 <aphillip> ... since it needs more than just bidi properties
15:40:43 <aphillip> ... but will probably happen in unicode 6.2.1
15:41:10 <aphillip>    Various HTML5 bugs:    http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-bidi/2012JulSep/0071.html     http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-bidi/2012JulSep/0068.html
15:41:44 <aphillip> it makes no sense to limit the placeholder attribute to values of the same direction as the <input>
15:42:05 <aphillip> People don't know about these characters because they haven't needed to use them. But if they want this to work, then they need to use them. So I don't see why this would remain a truism forever.  There's nothing more magical or difficult about &#x202B; than <span dir=rtl>, IMHO. If anything, I would say that the mistake we made was ever using high-level markup for this character-level issue, as it means that every time we have a non-markup-level problem, we 
15:44:25 <aphillip> norbert: why is that an attribute
15:45:00 <aphillip> richard: xhtml2 rid us of title and alt, but... couldn't get rid of it in html
15:45:08 <aphillip> ... but this is a new invention
15:45:37 <aphillip> aharon: hixie basically said "oh, just use formating characters"
15:46:07 <aphillip> .. different bug 17829
15:46:13 <r12a> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17829
15:46:34 <aphillip> Bug 17829 - dir=auto does not work for user-visible attribute values
15:46:45 <aphillip> aharon: even more ludicrous
15:47:09 <aphillip> ... if you have <div dir=auto>
15:47:28 <aphillip> ... then attributes inside that (like span or something with @title)
15:47:52 <aphillip> ... then contents get direction from *surrounding* text, with *no* consideration for contents of the attribute in question
15:48:19 <aphillip> aharon: proposed new attribute @attribsdir
15:48:43 <aphillip> ... to allow direction setting on all attributes of an element
15:48:53 <aphillip> ... could say auto (or ltr/rtl)
15:49:54 <aphillip> aharon: reopened this bug although hixie rejected
15:50:20 <aphillip> ... and this would also solve placeholder
15:51:31 <aphillip> ... original proposal included a list but that was too complicated
15:52:07 <aphillip> richard: stop using attributes for natural language text
15:52:16 <aphillip> norbert: or add a new attribute for every attribute they add
15:53:01 <aphillip> norbert: title attribute gets its own window/context, while placeholder is embedded into document
15:54:14 <aphillip> addison: do we want to reopen this one?
15:56:58 <aphillip> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15488
15:57:01 <aphillip> still shows new
15:57:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/12-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
15:59:53 <aphillip> richard: copy 17814 to 15488 and then go on to comment there (in 15488)
16:00:53 <aphillip> aharon: 15488 doesn't offer solution
16:00:56 <aphillip> ... before we opened the @attribsdir
16:01:59 <aphillip> addison: 1. quit making attributes with NL text
16:02:18 <aphillip> ... and 2. but then use @attribsdir (or something) to fix it
16:02:34 <aphillip> aharon: would there be a placeholder *element* instead?a
16:03:24 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
16:04:34 <Zakim> -fsasaki
16:05:33 <aphillip> addison: generated text or placed text can't always provide bidi controls
16:06:00 <aphillip> richard: attributes with mixed direction needs can only have controls
16:06:05 <aphillip> ... only talking attributes here
16:08:59 <aphillip> aharon: there is room to say that inside attribute values you will need to use bidi controls anyway
16:09:24 <aphillip> ... that's true, but that doesn't translate to *always* requiring their direciton to be indicated that way
16:09:40 <aphillip> ... less common to mix text anyway
16:09:52 <aphillip> ... but not end of world to have to use them in attribute values
16:10:18 <aphillip> ... not enthusiastic to continue arguing it?
16:10:35 <Zakim> -koji
16:10:36 <aphillip> s/NL text/natural language text/
16:11:52 <aphillip> aharon: often input is a different direction from that of page (and of placeholder)
16:12:09 <aphillip> ... e.g. phone number or email address is ltr, but placeholder needs to be rtl
16:12:32 <aphillip> richard: make placeholder dir=auto by default??
16:12:52 <aphillip> aharon: would prefer a way to control is, because auto means "first strong"
16:15:23 <aphillip> chair: time check
16:15:39 <aphillip> richard: can continue on email?
16:15:58 <aphillip> ... been writing a bidi document for a year :-)
16:16:07 <aphillip> ... maybe need to rewrite further
16:16:22 <aphillip> ... but need to do that soon
16:16:36 <aphillip> ... so add as agendum in an upcoming telecon
16:16:53 <aphillip> ... aharon made some radical change requests
16:17:02 <aphillip> next time
16:17:40 <aphillip> Topic: AOB?
16:18:48 <aphillip> tpac: we need a phone
16:19:15 <Zakim> -Addison_Phillips
16:19:17 <Zakim> -Norbert
16:19:25 <aphillip> rrsagent, make minutes
16:19:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/12-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
16:22:48 <aphillip> Present: Addison, Richard, Aharon, Norbert, Mati, Fantasai
16:23:04 <aphillip> Present+ Koji
16:23:14 <aphillip> rrsagent, make minutes
16:23:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/12-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
16:23:30 <aharon> aharon has left #i18n
16:23:54 <aphillip> Present: Addison, Richard, Felix, Aharon, Norbert, Mati, Fantasai, Koji
16:24:00 <aphillip> rrsagent, make minutes
16:24:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/12-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
16:24:49 <aphillip> rrsagent, bye
16:24:49 <RRSAgent> I see no action items