16:22:35 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ua
16:22:35 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/09/06-ua-irc
16:22:37 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:22:37 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #ua
16:22:39 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:22:39 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 38 minutes
16:22:40 <trackbot> Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:22:40 <trackbot> Date: 06 September 2012
16:22:46 <JAllan> rrsagent, set logs public
16:27:48 <JAllan> Agenda+ Conformance discussion - continued
16:28:08 <JAllan> Agenda+ Level Discussion: drafting criteria for determining levels
16:32:41 <JAllan> chair: jimallan, kellyford
17:00:02 <Greg> Greg has joined #ua
17:00:31 <Zakim> WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
17:00:37 <Zakim> +Jeanne
17:01:39 <Zakim> +Greg_Lowney
17:01:54 <Jan> Jan has joined #ua
17:02:39 <Zakim> +Jim_Allan
17:02:41 <Jan> zakim, code?
17:02:41 <Zakim> the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Jan
17:03:27 <Zakim> +??P8
17:04:24 <Zakim> +Kim_Patch
17:04:45 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
17:04:47 <Jan> zakim, ??P8 is really Jan
17:04:47 <Zakim> +Jan; got it
17:09:07 <JAllan> scribe: jallan
17:09:27 <JAllan> agenda:
17:09:31 <JAllan> agenda?
17:09:38 <JAllan> open item 1
17:10:52 <jeanne> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012JulSep/0059.html
17:11:21 <JAllan> reviewing conformance strawman http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012JulSep/0059.html
17:11:37 <kford> kford has joined #ua
17:12:48 <JAllan> js: want to add more to platform examples and platform applications
17:13:11 <JAllan> jr: why is mobile different from desktop
17:13:19 <JAllan> kp: keyboard is different
17:13:41 <JAllan> jr: not so much, complicated is browser in a browser on an OS
17:14:21 <JAllan> ... in ATAG partial conformance - why something is impossible because of platform a11y issues.
17:14:46 <JAllan> ... eg. we don't meet keyboard because device X has no keyboard
17:15:36 <JAllan> kf: issue not related to us, but people want mobile to be different, want guideline for mobile
17:16:40 <JAllan> kf: second challenge: defining what is a UA...the American Airlines app. - how much of UAAG does an app have to conform?
17:17:17 <JAllan> ... apps that help with usability of other applications. are these UAs?
17:17:41 <JAllan> jr: a user experience mediated by platform and browser
17:17:52 <kford> kford has joined #ua
17:18:46 <JAllan> ... they have been broken up in the past. and a shared responsibility. but boundaries have blurred a11y is more distributed
17:19:25 <JAllan> kf: don't expect every app to provide mouseless browsing interface. should be getting that from the platform.
17:19:57 <JAllan> ... should be able to say this is what I comply with, all the other parts should come from the platform or something else.
17:21:05 <JAllan> jr: concept of ATAG friendly. this is what I do...and I don't break other plugins, extensions, browser functions, external applications. If I do, then I must replace that function.
17:21:30 <JAllan> kf: new apps in windows 8 that live on the desktop.
17:21:58 <JAllan> kp: +1 to if you don't provide it, don't break it.
17:22:30 <JAllan> ... developers not good with standard keyboard shortcuts., what are standards? what are best practices?
17:23:12 <JAllan> ... want to make things easy. making it easy is hard. making shortcuts discoverable
17:23:21 <JAllan> ... so what do I do.
17:23:54 <JAllan> jr: what we have is a highlevel of user requirements necessary to make the user experience accessible.
17:24:07 <JAllan> ... how do you implement keyboard a11y?
17:24:26 <JAllan> ... how do you not break somebody elses keyboard a11y?
17:24:47 <JAllan> kp: need to make it flexibile and forgiving, 
17:25:38 <JAllan> gl: issues - what is UA, what is scope of responsibility, division of labor with OS and UA wrt a11y
17:25:51 <Jan> re: ATAG 2.0 Conforming vs. Compatible (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-au/2010JulSep/0089.html)
17:26:09 <JAllan> gl: things that are less than a full UA (apps)
17:27:12 <JAllan> gl: where to developers get guidance.
17:28:02 <JAllan> kp: in terms of developer and flexibility that go in the a11y bin and the future bin (anticipating users needs)
17:29:06 <JAllan> gl: need to add cell app as a use case for validating an SC, along with UA on desktop, media player, audio only, keyboard only
17:29:42 <JAllan> ... see minutes from last week (summary) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012JulSep/0058.html
17:30:18 <JAllan> gl: make sure the SC makes sense across these usecases. 
17:30:50 <JAllan> ... if the cell app breaks too many (number to be determined) then perhaps the app is not a UA
17:31:17 <JAllan> gl: do we have a current position on app as UA. 
17:31:35 <jeanne> http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2012/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20120819/#intro-def-ua
17:31:48 <JAllan> js: in the implementing document http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2012/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20120827/
17:32:24 <JAllan> ... see what qualifies as a UA. web application
17:34:18 <JAllan> gl: is the airline app a UA? it interprets w3 technology.
17:35:21 <JAllan> jr: problem with legislation, if law says everything that uses w3 tech, must provide full UA capabilities.
17:37:42 <JAllan> ja: share discussion with Rich S., saying they are single purpose services with a simple interface, and should be written so platform a11y tools can render the info.
17:38:08 <JAllan> gl: where is the dividing line between service and full UA
17:39:18 <JAllan> jr: the app hands off the a11y to platform or other tool.  it doesn't provide a source or outline view. the best way to provide info is the itinerary view.
17:39:31 <JAllan> kp: what about apps interacting. 
17:40:45 <JAllan> jr: right...app doesn't provide mouseless browsing but I don't break others mouseless browsing apps interacting with me
17:40:54 <Jan> JR: Example of copy...some apps support it natively, some break it...but others just play nice with the platform's copy functionality.
17:41:32 <Jan> JR: Boils down to maybe SC's are met: yes, no, NA and another option "is compatible with some other service or platform doing it"
17:42:17 <JAllan> kp: is functionality is native to OS then its covered, if its not, then we need some kind of test.
17:43:00 <JAllan> jr: speech SC. if someone else provides it,, then you are done. if you provide speech then you must meet the speech SC
17:44:04 <JAllan> jr: let developers choose what parts of UAAG they will comply with depending on things you do, and don't break platform a11y, or other extensions.
17:45:09 <JAllan> gl: so they wouldn't have to say anything about mouseless browsing, or do they have to test and say they have tested with some mouseless browsing extension.
17:45:13 <JAllan> jr: which one?
17:45:34 <JAllan> gl: in conformance claim...would have to be specific.
17:46:07 <JAllan> jr: system integrator could use all extensions to make sure it all works.
17:46:59 <JAllan> ... would be nice if extension maker could claim conformance to small part of UAAG, and ensure they don't break anything else
17:47:01 <JAllan> +1
17:48:08 <JAllan> kp: speech example say down 3 does down arrow and #3, but down 3 in another system does 3 down arrows
17:48:59 <JAllan> problems with extensions interacting, how to check non-interference.
17:50:02 <JAllan> js: concerned about partial conformance. want major browsers to conform with all of UAAG. want incentive for conformance
17:50:43 <JAllan> kp: how to draw line between partial or full conformance.
17:51:00 <JAllan> jr: full function browser. 
17:51:29 <JAllan> gl: full compliance with A and x,y,z of AA.
17:52:17 <JAllan> ... want a mechanism for purchasers and policy folks to make decisions. location of conformance claim needs to be available to the public.
17:52:37 <JAllan> ... provide guidance to developers to do the right thing.
17:53:07 <JAllan> kp: any test for partial conformance.
17:53:28 <JAllan> gl: is there any level for minimal conformace
17:54:01 <JAllan> ja: could we have conformance for extensions? separate from full UA
17:54:46 <JAllan> kp: can we say, what do you have...this looks like a full browoser...then must comply with ____
17:55:11 <JAllan> ... this is an app and you must comply with ____
17:57:06 <JAllan> kp: extension compliance would be useful for users to decide which extension to use.
17:57:41 <JAllan> gl: take UAAG ctegories of what is a UA, and delineate which SC apply to which type of UA.
17:58:52 <JAllan> js: new technologies seem to blur the categories.
17:58:52 <KimPatch> platform-based are full. Extensions or web-based have a choice to be full or partial -- does that work
17:59:29 <JAllan> kp: the blurry one is the webbased brwosers
18:00:28 <JAllan> gl: somethings can be both.  e.g. Firebug, is an extension, but a huge UI, should be a full UA
18:01:14 <JAllan> kp: this makes big browsers full compliance.
18:02:13 <JAllan> jr: platform based or full.  the app is platform based. has a webview, but is stand alone on the platform. 
18:03:32 <JAllan> gl: what is handled by platform services to handled 
18:04:10 <JAllan> kp: where does the airline app not comply?
18:05:06 <JAllan> jr: they could fail WCAG as webcontent.
18:05:41 <JAllan> kf: people writing apps don't want to read wcag because they are not writing conent. 
18:06:16 <JAllan> jr: need a WAI document - a11y guidelines for webapps, smartphone apps, etc.
18:06:48 <JAllan> jr: should be partial conformance
18:07:24 <JAllan> ... weight of conformance comes from gonvernments and policy folks
18:08:24 <JAllan> kp: NA vs not doing it...are two different things. airline app has no captions, because no video
18:09:11 <JAllan> ... need distinction between we don't do this and we can't do this
18:11:58 <JAllan> gl: amount of code in major browser is huge. there may be places they can't comply because code is old an won't be for a time.
18:12:18 <JAllan> rewritten for a long time
18:12:49 <JAllan> jr: what if they have done part of an SC...
18:12:58 <JAllan> kp: isn't that partial compliance
18:13:50 <JAllan> jr: partial compliance...we don't do this, we don't break anybody else do it. 
18:14:46 <JAllan> kp: 4 ways of conformance
18:14:58 <JAllan> 1. comply
18:15:02 <JAllan> 2. na
18:15:11 <JAllan> comply with 3rd party help
18:15:23 <JAllan> 4. comply with exceptions, and list them
18:15:44 <JAllan> js: also does not comply
18:16:24 <JAllan> js: how to handle, 700 correct and 1 incorrect. do we take conformance away...others are working on it. we should not jump in
18:17:18 <JAllan> kp: useful to have dialog...this complies except for thise things and here is why
18:17:37 <JAllan> gl: this fits will with last weeks discussion.
18:17:54 <JAllan> ... 2 answers what passes and how
18:17:57 <JAllan> ... modigy
18:18:13 <JAllan> pass/no pass/ pass with exception
18:18:27 <JAllan> list exceptions
18:18:31 <Greg> So for each SC the conformance claim can include:
18:18:33 <Greg> (a) Passes, Does Not Pass, Passes with Exceptions
18:18:34 <Greg> (b) Requirements (e.g. inclusion of an optional extension, platform option enabled, or implemented on user agents that implement a feature)
18:19:19 <JAllan> ... in addition to global requirement - not hinder OS a11y features
18:19:21 <Greg> That is in addition to the global configuration requirements listed for the entire conformance claim.
18:19:45 <Greg> (a) Passes, Does Not Pass, Passes with Exceptions listed
18:21:07 <JAllan> gl: each conformance claim covers exceptions, per platform, by extensions
18:21:37 <JAllan> ... with a webbased UA, would specifiy per browser what you pass and don't pass
18:22:23 <JAllan> js: anyone to write a summary of this information
18:23:11 <JAllan> greg regrets for next week
18:24:03 <JAllan> action Kim to integrate gregs summary of last two weeks minutes into UAAG with jeanne
18:24:03 <trackbot> Created ACTION-757 - Integrate gregs summary of last two weeks minutes into UAAG with jeanne [on Kimberly Patch - due 2012-09-13].
18:24:37 <JAllan> conformance claims
18:25:11 <JAllan> rrsagent, make minutes
18:25:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/06-ua-minutes.html JAllan
18:25:35 <JAllan> leap motion - gesture device
18:26:29 <JAllan> fat iphone - 8 cubic foot space for hand motion, accurate and fast. hooks into touch api
18:28:41 <JAllan> flecksy keyboard for iphone
18:29:38 <JAllan> for blind users
18:31:50 <JAllan> fleksy keyboard - correction
18:33:29 <JAllan> rrsagent, make minutes
18:33:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/06-ua-minutes.html JAllan
18:33:54 <JAllan> zakim, please part
18:33:54 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Jeanne, Greg_Lowney, Jim_Allan, Kim_Patch, [Microsoft], Jan
18:33:54 <Zakim> Zakim has left #ua
18:34:00 <JAllan> rrsagent, make minutes
18:34:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/06-ua-minutes.html JAllan
18:34:42 <JAllan> regrets_Mark
18:34:51 <JAllan> regrets+Mark
18:34:56 <JAllan> rrsagent, make minutes
18:34:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/06-ua-minutes.html JAllan
18:35:13 <JAllan> regrets: mark
18:35:15 <JAllan> rrsagent, make minutes
18:35:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/06-ua-minutes.html JAllan
18:35:40 <JAllan> rrsagent, please part
18:35:40 <RRSAgent> I see no action items