IRC log of wcag2ict on 2012-08-31

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:58:04 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #wcag2ict
13:58:04 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/08/31-wcag2ict-irc
13:58:06 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs world
13:58:06 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #wcag2ict
13:58:08 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be 2428
13:58:08 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
13:58:09 [trackbot]: Meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
13:58:09 [trackbot]: Date: 31 August 2012
13:58:19 [Andi]: chair: Andi_Snow-Weaver
13:58:31 [Zakim]: WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM has now started
13:58:34 [Andi]: scribe:Mary_Jo_Mueller
13:58:38 [Zakim]: +Andi_Snow_Weaver
13:58:39 [Andi]: scribenick: MaryJo
13:58:49 [Andi]: regrets: Kiran_Kaja
13:59:52 [Zakim]: +David_MacDonald
14:00:02 [Zakim]: +Shadi
14:00:03 [Loic]: Loic has joined #wcag2ict
14:00:19 [Zakim]: +MaryJo
14:00:29 [shadi]: zakim, mute me
14:00:29 [Zakim]: Shadi should now be muted
14:00:33 [Zakim]: +??P14
14:00:38 [shadi]: ack me
14:00:39 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
14:00:49 [David]: David has joined #wcag2ict
14:01:04 [alex_]: alex_ has joined #wcag2ict
14:01:06 [Andi]: zakim, ??P14 is Loïc_Martínez_Normand
14:01:06 [Zakim]: +Loïc_Martínez_Normand; got it
14:01:16 [Zakim]: +Gregg_Vanderheiden
14:01:17 [shadi]: zakim, mute me
14:01:18 [Zakim]: Shadi should now be muted
14:01:18 [Andi]: zakim, [Microsoft] has Alex_Li
14:01:18 [Zakim]: +Alex_Li; got it
14:01:23 [Mike]: Mike has joined #wcag2ict
14:02:28 [Zakim]: +[Oracle]
14:02:43 [korn]: korn has joined #wcag2ict
14:02:45 [Andi]: zakim, [Oracle] has Peter_Korn
14:02:45 [Zakim]: +Peter_Korn; got it
14:02:49 [Zakim]: +Al_Hoffman
14:03:17 [Zakim]: +??P3
14:03:33 [Andi]: zakim, ??P3 is Mike_Pluke
14:03:33 [Zakim]: +Mike_Pluke; got it
14:03:49 [Zakim]: +Judy
14:04:43 [greggvanderheiden]: greggvanderheiden has joined #wcag2ict
14:04:50 [MaryJo]: topic: 2.4.5 Multiple Ways
14:04:51 [Andi]: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/AUG242012/results
14:05:24 [Zakim]: +Pierce_Crowell
14:05:26 [janina]: janina has joined #wcag2ict
14:05:26 [Andi]: minutes from Tuesday: www.w3.org/2012/08/28-wcag2ict-minutes.html
14:05:46 [Pierce]: Pierce has joined #wcag2ict
14:05:59 [Zakim]: +??P27
14:06:15 [Andi]: zakim, ??P27 is Janina_Sajka
14:06:15 [Zakim]: +Janina_Sajka; got it
14:06:41 [Andi]: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/AUG242012/results
14:06:48 [Andi]: minutes from Tuesday: www.w3.org/2012/08/28-wcag2ict-minutes.html
14:07:50 [Pierce]: +q
14:08:01 [greggvanderheiden]: q+
14:08:17 [Andi]: ack pierce
14:08:22 [shadi]: zakim, mute me
14:08:22 [Zakim]: Shadi was already muted, shadi
14:08:26 [Mike]: q+
14:08:39 [MaryJo]: Discussion on the definition of a set of documents. Note says one document should link to the other documents in the set.
14:09:48 [MaryJo]: Recommendation that we encourage having links between the documents in the set, but don't make it required.
14:10:43 [Andi]: ack gregg
14:10:43 [alex_]: q+
14:11:12 [korn]: q+
14:11:12 [Pierce]: +q
14:12:24 [Andi]: ack Mike
14:12:32 [MaryJo]: We could remove '3) that contain links in at least one member document to the other documents in the set.'
14:12:55 [MaryJo]: Especially since not all document technologies support links.
14:13:10 [David]: q+
14:13:27 [greggvanderheiden]: q+
14:13:34 [Andi]: ack alex
14:13:38 [David]: q-
14:14:02 [David]: q+
14:14:42 [Andi]: q+ Al_Hoffman
14:14:50 [Andi]: ack korn
14:15:19 [Andi]: ack Pierce
14:16:56 [Mike]: q+
14:17:44 [MaryJo]: A 'set' is difficult to define. What does it mean 'published at the same time' really mean? This could be interpreted differently by different people.
14:17:52 [Andi]: ack gregg
14:18:51 [Andi]: q+
14:20:03 [alex_]: q+
14:20:40 [MaryJo]: We could modify the definition to say that this would be a self-declared set. So if you choose to declare the documents to be a set, then this SC would be applied.
14:20:54 [Pierce]: +q
14:21:16 [MaryJo]: What we mean by 'at the same time' means when the documents are published together.
14:21:20 [Andi]: ack david
14:22:00 [Andi]: ack al
14:22:42 [greggvanderheiden]: q+
14:22:51 [Andi]: ack al
14:23:09 [Pierce]: can I go out of turn?
14:23:37 [MaryJo]: The definition means that if you have links between the documents then it is considered a set.
14:24:07 [Andi]: ack Pierce
14:24:10 [Andi]: s/can I go out of turn?//
14:24:10 [alex_]: q+
14:24:18 [korn]: "Declared as a set"?
14:25:10 [greggvanderheiden]: published together and labeled as a set within the documents
14:25:20 [korn]: +1 to Gregg.
14:25:27 [korn]: q+
14:26:45 [Andi]: ack mike
14:26:51 [Andi]: ack andi
14:27:29 [Pierce]: +1
14:27:36 [Andi]: proposal: "published together and labeled as a sest within the documents"
14:27:46 [Andi]: s/sest/set/
14:29:45 [Andi]: ack gregg
14:30:13 [Andi]: ack alex
14:30:21 [MaryJo]: We don't want to pick up documents that are published over a span of years as a set of documents.
14:33:06 [Pierce]: +q
14:33:28 [Andi]: proposal: "published together and labeled as a sest within one of the documents"
14:33:31 [korn]: q-
14:34:14 [Andi]: s/sest/set/
14:34:24 [korn]: q+
14:34:36 [korn]: Alex - is there ANY example of documents that you see would be in the same set?
14:36:01 [Andi]: Proposal from Pierce coming:
14:36:16 [Andi]: This applies to documents directly as written, and as described in INTENT from Understanding WCAG 2.0 (above) replacing for "web pages" with "documents" and replacing "set of web pages" with "set of documents". A set of documents is a group of documents that are 1) published together; 2) published at the same time; 3) labeled as a set within at least one member document. Republishing
14:36:16 [Andi]: previously published documents as a collection does not constitute a set of documents.
14:36:32 [Andi]: NOTE: Authors should assume that the set is not broken apart, and that an infrastructure exists to allow a user to locate documents in the set by selecting links within a member document, browsing through the files that make up the set, and by searching the documents' contents or the names of the member documents.
14:37:03 [Judy]: q+
14:37:09 [greggvanderheiden]: q+
14:37:14 [Andi]: ack pierce
14:37:16 [Andi]: ack korn
14:37:58 [Loic]: What Peter is talking about is called "master document" in Microsoft Office.
14:38:01 [greggvanderheiden]: zakim, greggcvanderheiden is gregg
14:38:01 [Zakim]: sorry, greggvanderheiden, I do not recognize a party named 'greggcvanderheiden'
14:38:22 [Andi]: ack judy
14:39:01 [Andi]: q+
14:39:56 [greggvanderheiden]: zakim, greggvanderheiden is gregg
14:39:56 [Zakim]: +gregg; got it
14:40:58 [Andi]: +1 to Pierce's proposal
14:41:03 [Loic]: q+
14:41:05 [Andi]: ack gregg
14:41:17 [Pierce]: +q
14:42:08 [janina]: q+
14:42:11 [Andi]: q+ Al
14:43:12 [korn]: +1 Andi
14:43:17 [Pierce]: +1
14:43:20 [Andi]: ack andi
14:43:20 [Judy]: +1 Andi
14:43:35 [greggvanderheiden]: and for almost any platform -- there are always two ways without requiring any links
14:43:52 [Zakim]: +andrew
14:44:43 [Andi]: ack loic
14:45:04 [MaryJo]: With Pierce's proposal, the publisher would be the one to declare that this is a set and would then place this a requirement that when the set is tested, the requirements of this SC would have to be met.
14:46:14 [janina]: q-
14:46:16 [Andi]: NOTE: Authors should assume that the set is not broken apart, and that an infrastructure exists to allow a user to locate documents in the set by selecting links within a member document, browsing through the files that make up the set, and by searching the documents' contents or the names of the member documents.
14:46:33 [Andi]: ack andi
14:46:47 [korn]: q+
14:47:47 [greggvanderheiden]: maybe "published together at the same time"
14:48:25 [Andi]: NOTE: Authors should assume that the set is not broken apart, and that an infrastructure exists to allow a user to locate documents in the set; for example, by selecting links within a member document, browsing through the files that make up the set, or by searching the documents' contents or the names of the member documents.
14:48:29 [greggvanderheiden]: q+
14:48:34 [Andi]: ack pierce
14:48:36 [greggvanderheiden]: and for almost any platform -- there are always two ways without requiring any links
14:50:02 [Pierce]: +1 on published together as a set
14:50:29 [Andi]: This applies to documents directly as written, and as described in INTENT from Understanding WCAG 2.0 (above) replacing for "web pages" with "documents" and replacing "set of web pages" with "set of documents". A set of documents is a group of documents that are 1) published together 2) labeled as a set within at least one member document. Republishing previously published documents as
14:50:29 [Andi]: a collection does not constitute a set of documents.
14:50:37 [Andi]: ack Al
14:51:19 [Loic]: I have a proposal for an example:
14:51:20 [Andi]: NOTE: Authors should assume that the set is not broken apart, and that an infrastructure exists to allow a user to locate documents in the set; for example, by selecting links within a member document, browsing through the files that make up the set, or by searching the documents' contents or the names of the member documents.
14:51:40 [Pierce]: +1
14:51:43 [Loic]: EXAMPLE: An example of a set of documents is the collection defined by a "master document", as a container for a set of separate files (or subdocuments). Master documents can be used to set up and manage a multipart document, such as a book with several chapters.
14:51:49 [korn]: q-
14:52:12 [Andi]: ack gregg
14:52:12 [korn]: ...with several chapters, each chapter in its own file.
14:52:29 [alex_]: q+
14:52:57 [Loic]: q+
14:54:29 [MaryJo]: Propose changing 'container' to 'reference'.
14:54:45 [Loic]: EXAMPLE: An example of a set of documents is the collection defined by a "master document", as a reference for a set of separate files (or subdocuments). Master documents can be used to set up and manage a multipart document, such as a book with several chapters.
14:54:48 [Andi]: ack alex
14:54:52 [Loic]: q-
14:54:58 [MaryJo]: The term 'master document' is used in Open Office.
14:55:34 [MaryJo]: We can add the example as a proposal next week after the group reviews.
14:55:37 [Andi]: This applies to documents directly as written, and as described in INTENT from Understanding WCAG 2.0 (above) replacing "web pages" with "documents" and replacing "set of web pages" with "set of documents". A set of documents is a group of documents that are 1) published together, and 2) labeled as a set within at least one member document. Republishing previously published documents as
14:55:37 [Andi]: a collection does not constitute a set of documents.
14:55:47 [Andi]: NOTE: Authors should assume that the set is not broken apart, and that an infrastructure exists to allow a user to locate documents in the set; for example, by selecting links within a member document, browsing through the files that make up the set, or by searching the documents' contents or the names of the member documents.
14:56:06 [Pierce]: +1
14:56:09 [korn]: +1
14:56:18 [janina]: +1
14:56:57 [MaryJo]: RESOLUTION: Accept proposal #9 for Multiple Ways 2.4.5 as developed in the meeting.
14:57:38 [MaryJo]: topic: Survey Glossary of Terms - Part 3
14:57:40 [korn]: https://sites.google.com/site/wcag2ict/home/2-operable/24-provide-ways-to-help-users-navigate-find-content-and-determine-where-they-are/245-multiple-ways
14:58:05 [Andi]: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/GLOSSARY3/results
14:58:37 [Zakim]: -Al_Hoffman
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14:59:07 [Andi]: relationships, relied upon (technologies that are), same relative order, sign language, sign language interpretation, specific sensory experience, synchronized media, text, used in an unusual or restricted way, video, video-only
14:59:10 [Loic]: q+
15:00:05 [greggvanderheiden]: q+
15:00:28 [Andi]: ack loic
15:01:00 [MaryJo]: Concern is that specific sensory experience is not explanatory enough. Can we ask WCAG to improve the example?
15:01:42 [MaryJo]: This definition is normative, so can't be changed. We can ask for further explanation in the intent of the specific SC where this term is used.
15:03:11 [MaryJo]: This appears in 1.1.1 as example of specific examples of non-text content that doesn't need a text equivalent.
15:03:37 [MaryJo]: s/example of specific examples/specific example/
15:03:52 [Andi]: action: Loïc to develop proposal for SC 1.1.1 WCAG 2.0 INTENT that addresses the concern with the example in the definition of "specific sensory experience"
15:03:52 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-55 - Develop proposal for SC 1.1.1 WCAG 2.0 INTENT that addresses the concern with the example in the definition of "specific sensory experience" [on Loïc Martínez Normand - due 2012-09-07].
15:04:10 [Andi]: relationships, relied upon (technologies that are), same relative order, sign language, sign language interpretation, specific sensory experience, synchronized media, text, used in an unusual or restricted way, video, video-only
15:04:41 [MaryJo]: RESOLUTION: Accept definitions for relationships, relied upon (technologies that are), same relative order, sign language, sign language interpretation, specific sensory experience, synchronized media, text, used in an unusual or restricted way, video, video-only
15:05:01 [MaryJo]: topic: user controllable
15:06:19 [Mike]: q+
15:06:19 [MaryJo]: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/GLOSSARY3/results#xq12
15:06:48 [MaryJo]: Concern expressed about the term 'access' used in the definition.
15:07:08 [korn]: q+
15:08:31 [MaryJo]: For example, if a user is reading a newspaper, the content is not changeable by the user.
15:08:32 [Andi]: ack gregg
15:08:51 [Andi]: ack mike
15:08:56 [Andi]: ack korn
15:10:07 [Andi]: action: Gregg to propose text to add to SC 3.3.4 WCAG INTENT to cover the concern about the verb "access" in the definition of "user-controllable"
15:10:07 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-56 - Propose text to add to SC 3.3.4 WCAG INTENT to cover the concern about the verb "access" in the definition of "user-controllable" [on Gregg Vanderheiden - due 2012-09-07].
15:10:29 [MaryJo]: RESOLUTION: user controllable applies to non-web ICT as-is
15:10:40 [MaryJo]: topic: user interface component
15:10:48 [MaryJo]: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/GLOSSARY3/results#xq13
15:10:56 [korn]: Q+
15:11:31 [Loic]: q+
15:12:10 [korn]: "a part of the USER INTERFACE that is perceived..."; except if we make the one change, maybe we should also chagne "is perceived" at the same time.
15:12:50 [greggvanderheiden]: q+
15:12:54 [korn]: q-
15:12:57 [Andi]: ack loic
15:13:01 [MaryJo]: Could say 'is defined by' instead of 'is perceived by'
15:13:05 [Andi]: q+
15:14:07 [korn]: q+
15:14:11 [MaryJo]: Could say 'user interface coponent' means 'user interface element' which is a term non-Web software developers are more familiar with.
15:14:18 [Mike]: q+
15:14:21 [Andi]: ack gregg
15:14:29 [Loic]: UI element in ISO 921-171: "entity of the user interface that is presented to the user by the software"
15:16:20 [korn]: q?
15:18:05 [Andi]: ack andi
15:18:27 [MaryJo]: 'content' is intended to cover both software and documents, as agreed upon before. However 'content' will be reopened to modify what we agreed to. Propose we defer this until we address 'content'.
15:18:41 [korn]: q-
15:18:41 [Andi]: ack korn
15:18:54 [greggvanderheiden]: q+
15:18:58 [Andi]: ack mike
15:19:08 [MaryJo]: M376 has 'content' as one thing and 'software' is a separate entity.
15:19:32 [Andi]: ack gregg
15:21:31 [Loic]: q+
15:21:54 [MaryJo]: In 4.1.2 we can make it clear. Should add a note that the user interface component is what the content author perceives as a UI component rather than what the user perceives. e.g. parts of a scrollbar vs. scrollbar as Peter commented in the survey.
15:22:37 [korn]: q+
15:23:06 [Andi]: re-posting this provided by Loic - UI element in ISO 921-171: "entity of the user interface that is presented to the user by the software"
15:23:10 [Andi]: ack loic
15:24:12 [Mike]: +1 to Loïc's proposal
15:24:33 [Loic]: My suggestion: to say that "user interface component" is to be interpreted as "user interface element" and then putting ISO 9241-171 definition.
15:25:49 [Loic]: q+
15:26:21 [Loic]: +1 to Andi's interpretation on that suggestion
15:26:29 [Andi]: ack korn
15:27:13 [Zakim]: -andrew
15:27:45 [greggvanderheiden]: q+
15:27:49 [Andi]: ack loic
15:28:15 [AWK]: was kicked off the call and now "conference is restricted at this time"
15:28:28 [MaryJo]: In M376, 'UI element' was the replacement for 'UI component'.
15:28:57 [AWK]: ok, np
15:29:38 [Andi]: ack loic
15:29:45 [David]: q+
15:30:11 [korn]: q+
15:30:40 [Andi]: ack gregg
15:30:42 [Judy]: q+
15:32:31 [David]: q-
15:33:06 [Judy]: q-
15:33:16 [MaryJo]: We need to have someone create an analysis page that shows the replacement of the terms where they are used.
15:33:20 [Andi]: action: Gregg to work with Loic to put together analysis of all SC where "UI Component" is used to see if the ISO definiiton will work
15:33:20 [Zakim]: -Judy
15:33:20 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-57 - Work with Loic to put together analysis of all SC where "UI Component" is used to see if the ISO definiiton will work [on Gregg Vanderheiden - due 2012-09-07].
15:33:37 [Zakim]: -[Microsoft]
15:33:40 [Zakim]: -[Oracle]
15:33:41 [Zakim]: -Pierce_Crowell
15:33:43 [Zakim]: -David_MacDonald
15:33:44 [Zakim]: -Janina_Sajka
15:33:44 [Zakim]: -MaryJo
15:33:46 [Zakim]: -Andi_Snow_Weaver
15:33:46 [Zakim]: -Shadi
15:33:46 [Zakim]: -gregg
15:33:47 [Zakim]: -Loïc_Martínez_Normand
15:33:51 [Zakim]: -Mike_Pluke
15:33:53 [Zakim]: WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM has ended
15:33:53 [Zakim]: Attendees were Andi_Snow_Weaver, David_MacDonald, Shadi, MaryJo, Loïc_Martínez_Normand, Gregg_Vanderheiden, Alex_Li, Peter_Korn, Al_Hoffman, Mike_Pluke, Judy, Pierce_Crowell,
15:33:56 [Zakim]: ... Janina_Sajka, gregg, andrew
15:34:08 [greggvanderheiden]: greggvanderheiden has left #wcag2ict
15:35:11 [Andi]: zakim, bye
15:35:11 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #wcag2ict
15:35:17 [Andi]: rrsagent, make minutes
15:35:17 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/31-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
16:07:30 [Judy]: Judy has left #wcag2ict
16:09:13 [korn]: korn has left #wcag2ict
16:15:51 [Andi]: regrets+ Bruce_Bailey
16:15:57 [Andi]: rrsagent, make minuts
16:15:57 [RRSAgent]: I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minuts', Andi. Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:16:01 [Andi]: rrsagent, make minutes
16:16:01 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/31-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
18:58:57 [Andi]: s/gregg/Gregg_Vanderheiden/
18:59:11 [Andi]: s/andrew/Andrew_Kirkpatrick/
18:59:20 [Andi]: rrsagent, make minutes
18:59:20 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/31-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
19:43:18 [Andi]: s/was kicked off the call and now "conference is restricted at this time"//
19:43:32 [Andi]: s/ok, np//
19:43:50 [Andi]: rrsagent, make minutes
19:43:50 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/31-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
20:35:03 [janina]: janina has left #wcag2ict
21:33:15 [Andi]: trackbot, end meeting
21:33:15 [trackbot]: Zakim, list attendees
21:33:23 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, please draft minutes
21:33:23 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/31-wcag2ict-minutes.html trackbot
21:33:24 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, bye
21:33:24 [RRSAgent]: I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/31-wcag2ict-actions.rdf :
21:33:24 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Loïc to develop proposal for SC 1.1.1 WCAG 2.0 INTENT that addresses the concern with the example in the definition of "specific sensory experience" [1]
21:33:24 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/31-wcag2ict-irc#T15-03-52
21:33:24 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Gregg to propose text to add to SC 3.3.4 WCAG INTENT to cover the concern about the verb "access" in the definition of "user-controllable" [2]
21:33:24 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/31-wcag2ict-irc#T15-10-07
21:33:24 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Gregg to work with Loic to put together analysis of all SC where "UI Component" is used to see if the ISO definiiton will work [3]
21:33:24 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/31-wcag2ict-irc#T15-33-20