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14:01:14 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/08/14-wcag2ict-irc
14:01:16 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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14:01:18 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2428
14:01:18 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM scheduled to start now
14:01:19 <trackbot> Meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
14:01:19 <trackbot> Date: 14 August 2012
14:01:51 <BBailey> BBailey has joined #wcag2ict
14:01:54 <Andi> chair: Mike_Pluke
14:02:00 <Andi> scribe: Andi_Snow-Weaver
14:02:04 <Andi> scribenick: Andi
14:02:27 <Andi> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:02:27 <Zakim> WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM has not yet started, Andi
14:02:29 <Zakim> On IRC I see BBailey, MaryJo, Zakim, RRSAgent, David, Mike, kiran, Andi, MichaelC, trackbot
14:02:38 <alex> alex has joined #wcag2ict
14:03:05 <Andi> rrsagent, off
14:04:44 <Pierce> Pierce has joined #wcag2ict
14:04:48 <janina> janina has joined #wcag2ict
14:04:50 <Zakim> +??P24
14:04:55 <Andi> topic: Survey on 3.2.3, examples of "process" as defined by WCAG and "interaction context" https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/AUG142012/results
14:05:01 <janina> zakim, ??P24 is Janina
14:05:01 <Zakim> +Janina; got it
14:05:01 <Pierce> The call number will not let me log in
14:05:23 <Andi> topic: 3.2.3 Consistent Navigation
14:05:50 <Zakim> +Pierce_Crowell
14:05:57 <Pierce> got in
14:05:59 <korn> q+
14:07:02 <Andi> q+
14:07:05 <Andi> ack korn
14:08:15 <Andi> navigation in the web context is fairly clear
14:09:08 <Andi> can't change the SC but could say what "navigation mechanisms" means in a document or software context
14:09:17 <korn> q+
14:09:24 <Andi> ack andi
14:09:49 <Andi> ack korn
14:10:22 <greggvanderheiden> q+
14:11:23 <Andi> ack gregg
14:12:04 <alex> q+
14:14:11 <greggvanderheiden> q+
14:14:16 <Andi> ack alex
14:14:28 <David> q+
14:14:42 <Andi> in a document, TOC provides navigation within that document. typically not to other documents within a set
14:15:14 <Andi> intent of the SC, however, is to allow navigation to other pages within the set of web pages
14:15:23 <korn> One document:
14:15:23 <korn>  - Section 1
14:15:23 <korn>   [quick links to sections 1, 2, 3]
14:15:23 <korn>  ... content ...
14:15:23 <korn>  - Section 2
14:15:23 <korn>  [quick links to sections 1, 2, 3]
14:15:25 <korn>  ... content ...
14:15:27 <korn>  - Section 3
14:15:29 <korn>  [quick links to sections 1, 2, 3]
14:15:31 <korn>  --- content ...
14:15:47 <Andi> ack gregg
14:16:19 <Andi> q+
14:16:41 <David> q-
14:17:17 <Andi> doesn't happen very often that a set of documents are published together and labeled as a set
14:17:38 <Andi> encyclopedia, 3 volume report are examples
14:18:01 <janina> q+ to object to "published together." Media a11y in html5 contemplates 3rd party additions of alternative media for a primary video resource.
14:18:10 <Andi> TOC with no links is not a navigation mechanism
14:18:13 <Andi> q-
14:18:41 <Andi> if you have a navigation mechanism that allows navigation between the documents, they should occur in the same relative order
14:18:59 <Pierce> +q
14:19:03 <Andi> if you don't have a navigation mechanism that allows navigation between the documents, then the SC is automatically met
14:19:56 <korn> q+
14:20:27 <Andi> in software, if there are multiple navigation mechanisms for jumping around in software, they should be in the same order
14:21:01 <Pierce> -q
14:21:06 <Andi> ack janina
14:21:06 <Zakim> janina, you wanted to object to "published together." Media a11y in html5 contemplates 3rd party additions of alternative media for a primary video resource.
14:22:53 <korn> q-
14:22:57 <Andi> example of video resource that is captioned after the fact. The non-accessible version and accessible version then become a set
14:23:07 <Pierce> +q
14:23:30 <greggvanderheiden> q+
14:24:01 <Andi> ack Pierce
14:25:06 <Andi> US federal government has to find a way to communicate this to large numbers of people - can't train people on subtleties
14:25:19 <Andi> q+
14:25:45 <Andi> multiple ways and consistent navigation are for everyone, not just people with disabilities
14:26:08 <Andi> sometimes authors don't have a choice - have to follow style guides for generation and publication of public documents
14:30:04 <Andi> for web pages, assumed that if you changed one of them, you could easily change the others
14:30:06 <korn> q+
14:30:32 <Andi> with documents, you might not change others in the set at the same time, maybe not ever
14:30:35 <Andi> ack gregg
14:31:10 <Andi> if not scoped to documents published at the same time, we open up feasibility arguments.
14:32:51 <Pierce> +q
14:33:15 <Andi> ack Andi
14:33:23 <janina> Noting it's not unusual to publish a report as a series, in successive issues of a newspaper/journal
14:33:59 <Andi> example of set of documents, each includes section on "Related Documents" with a list of all the others and links to them
14:34:08 <greggvanderheiden> q+
14:34:12 <Andi> another example is a multi-part report with links to the other parts
14:34:16 <Andi> ack korn
14:34:44 <janina> I like Andi's examples. They don't require same-time publication
14:34:58 <alex> don't we have an action item?
14:35:04 <Andi> ack Pierce
14:35:42 <Andi> ack gregg
14:36:20 <Andi> the SC does not require documents to have inter-document links
14:36:50 <Andi> but IF you have a navigation mechanism for linking between the documents, they must occur in the same order in each
14:38:25 <korn> q+
14:38:58 <Andi> q+
14:39:38 <Andi> ack korn
14:40:12 <Andi> remaining issues - what are navigation mechanisms in software, what documents are covered and what are not, notes on what are examples of documents that are published at the same time
14:40:31 <BBailey> Pierce, please include me too!
14:40:49 <Pierce> k
14:41:13 <Andi> action: Pierce to work with Gregg, Peter, Bruce, Alex, and Kiran on 3.2.3
14:41:13 <trackbot> Created ACTION-47 - Work with Gregg, Peter, Bruce, Alex, and Kiran on 3.2.3 [on Pierce Crowell - due 2012-08-21].
14:41:35 <korn> q+
14:41:35 <Andi> topic: Software and the process exception in 2.4.5 Multiple Ways 
14:41:37 <greggvanderheiden> q+
14:41:38 <Andi> ack andi
14:41:47 <Andi> ack korn
14:42:46 <Andi> unless we have notes or examples that exclude all of these, the exception for steps in a process won't work
14:43:40 <Andi> discussion about items within a tree view
14:45:07 <Andi> ack gregg
14:45:18 <Mike> q+
14:48:53 <Andi> have to decide what we mean by "web page" in software before we can solve this one
14:49:17 <Andi> the requirement is to have multiple ways to get to a "web page", not to the "components of a web page"
14:49:26 <korn> q+
14:49:30 <Andi> ack mike
14:49:33 <Andi> ack korn
14:51:42 <Andi> topic: Interaction Context
14:51:44 <Zakim> -Judy
14:52:01 <Zakim> +Judy
14:52:06 <korn> q+
14:52:39 <greggvanderheiden> q+
14:54:25 <Andi> comments can be used to improve the definition
14:56:13 <Andi> question needs to be answered within the context of use of the term
14:57:03 <Andi> for the purpose of conformance, the definition of IC may be good enough but may not be good enough for other contexts
14:57:05 <korn> q-
14:57:42 <Andi> ack gregg
14:59:10 <korn> +1 to Gregg's comment about 'task' definition
14:59:14 <Andi> suggestion that "system" is too large a scope. Perhaps changing "system" to "product" would be better
14:59:34 <Andi> also issue with "task" in a regulatory context
15:00:02 <Andi> if what we really mean is the whole product, maybe we should just say that
15:00:18 <korn> q+
15:01:20 <Andi> ack korn
15:02:44 <Andi> in regulatory context, need to know where people need to know what an interaction context is
15:03:56 <greggvanderheiden> q+
15:04:02 <Andi> if tested all SC on all of the software, then you've tested all of the ICs
15:04:04 <Andi> q+
15:04:23 <Andi> q-
15:04:55 <Andi> ack gregg
15:06:30 <Andi> if we make the unit of evaluation "software", there may be a problem with the rules for providing an alternate conforming version 
15:07:13 <Zakim> -Bruce_Bailey
15:07:49 <Zakim> +Bruce_Bailey
15:07:55 <korn> q+
15:08:36 <Andi> the software may provide an alterate way to do the function within the software rather in an alternate version of the software
15:10:33 <David> q+
15:11:24 <Pierce> In general, training developers is easier to conceive.  There are fewer of them, they are already an audience, and they may actually understand some of the concepts and what is and is not within their control.
15:11:35 <korn> q-
15:12:00 <Andi> need to consider where we use the term - for example, conformance in addition to the individual SC
15:12:56 <Andi> using software as the equivalent to web page works almost everywhere but not in the few that use "set of web pages"
15:12:58 <Andi> ack David
15:13:57 <greggvanderheiden> q+
15:15:51 <David> q+
15:16:21 <Andi> WCAG conformance requires each web page to conform even though some SC can only be evaluated within a set of web pages
15:16:28 <Andi> ack gregg
15:17:23 <korn> q+
15:17:44 <Andi> conformance claims however are scoped to some set of web pages
15:18:08 <Andi> ack david
15:20:13 <Andi> ack korn
15:20:38 <Andi> for regulatory context, we report on the entire product, not individual ICs
15:21:30 <greggvanderheiden> q+
15:23:19 <Judy> Judy has joined #wcag2ict
15:23:44 <korn> q+
15:25:13 <Andi> the pragmatist approach suggested by Peter would take some time to get agreement on and probably would not be accepted for the M376 work
15:25:48 <Andi> although it is probably the right direction, just can't be accommodated by the M376 time scales
15:26:06 <korn> Note what our Work Statement (http://www.w3.org/2012/04/WCAG2ICT-WorkStatement.html) says about conformance: "Producing a Working Group Note ... that describes: ... what WCAG 2.0 Conformance means in the context of non-Web ICT".  It doesn't say that we must define what a "conformance claim" is for non-web ICT.
15:26:31 <Andi> 508 ANPRM says "use WCAG". WCAG conformance is binary - you either conform or you don't
15:27:22 <korn> q+
15:27:41 <Andi> for the rest of 508, there are lots of provisions where you can indicate pass or fail. need a way to report on the individual provisions of WCAG
15:28:12 <Andi> how conformance is reported may be outside our scope
15:28:59 <Andi> it would be better if the provisions were required rather than the whole of conformance
15:30:08 <Zakim> -Judy
15:31:09 <Andi> conformance for software should say evaluate at the level of software except for those SC where different guidance is provided
15:31:48 <Andi> ack gregg
15:32:29 <Zakim> -Gregg_Vanderheiden
15:33:13 <greggvanderheiden> I'm dead and of course can't get in but we can leave that question for next time
15:33:54 <Andi> ack korn
15:34:29 <Andi> work statement doesn't say we have to say what a conformance claim is in software, it just says we have to address conformance
15:34:40 <Andi> we have flexibility in what we do in our report
15:36:10 <Zakim> -Andi_Snow_Weaver
15:36:14 <Zakim> -Janina
15:36:15 <Zakim> -David_MacDonald
15:36:15 <Zakim> -MaryJo
15:36:16 <Zakim> -Kiran
15:36:16 <Zakim> -Bruce_Bailey
15:36:17 <Zakim> -Pierce_Crowell
15:36:18 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
15:36:18 <Andi> rrsagent, make minutes
15:36:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/14-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
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15:36:27 <Zakim> - +1.661.748.aaaa
15:36:42 <Andi> zakim, bye
15:36:42 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Judy, Kiran, +1.661.748.aaaa, MaryJo, David_MacDonald, Andi_Snow_Weaver, [Microsoft], Gregg_Vanderheiden, Bruce_Bailey, Peter_Korn,
15:36:42 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wcag2ict
15:36:45 <Zakim> ... Janina, Pierce_Crowell
15:36:52 <Andi> rrsagent, make minutes
15:36:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/14-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
15:41:30 <Andi> s/The call number will not let me log in//
15:41:40 <Andi> s/got in//
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16:16:25 <Andi> s/don't we have an action item?//
16:18:47 <Andi> s/I'm dead and of course can't get in but we can leave that question for next time//
16:19:22 <Andi> rrsagent, make minutes
16:19:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/14-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
16:21:31 <Andi> regrets: Loïc_Martínez_Normand
16:21:35 <Andi> rrsagent, make minutes
16:21:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/14-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
16:22:07 <Andi> s/[Microsoft]/Alex_Li/
16:22:11 <Andi> rrsagent, make minutes
16:22:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/14-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
16:23:40 <Andi> present+ Pierce_Crowell
16:23:45 <Andi> rrsagent, make minutes
16:23:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/14-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi