IRC log of wcag2ict on 2012-08-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/08/14-wcag2ict-irc

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RRSAgent, make logs world

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Zakim, this will be 2428

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ok, trackbot; I see WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM scheduled to start now

14:01:19 [trackbot]

Meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference

14:01:19 [trackbot]

Date: 14 August 2012

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chair: Mike_Pluke

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scribe: Andi_Snow-Weaver

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scribenick: Andi

14:02:27 [Andi]

zakim, who is on the phone?

14:02:27 [Zakim]

WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM has not yet started, Andi

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On IRC I see BBailey, MaryJo, Zakim, RRSAgent, David, Mike, kiran, Andi, MichaelC, trackbot

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rrsagent, off

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+??P24

14:04:55 [Andi]

topic: Survey on 3.2.3, examples of "process" as defined by WCAG and "interaction context" https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/AUG142012/results

14:05:01 [janina]

zakim, ??P24 is Janina

14:05:01 [Zakim]

+Janina; got it

14:05:01 [Pierce]

The call number will not let me log in

14:05:23 [Andi]

topic: 3.2.3 Consistent Navigation

14:05:50 [Zakim]

+Pierce_Crowell

14:05:57 [Pierce]

got in

14:05:59 [korn]

q+

14:07:02 [Andi]

q+

14:07:05 [Andi]

ack korn

14:08:15 [Andi]

navigation in the web context is fairly clear

14:09:08 [Andi]

can't change the SC but could say what "navigation mechanisms" means in a document or software context

14:09:17 [korn]

q+

14:09:24 [Andi]

ack andi

14:09:49 [Andi]

ack korn

14:10:22 [greggvanderheiden]

q+

14:11:23 [Andi]

ack gregg

14:12:04 [alex]

q+

14:14:11 [greggvanderheiden]

q+

14:14:16 [Andi]

ack alex

14:14:28 [David]

q+

14:14:42 [Andi]

in a document, TOC provides navigation within that document. typically not to other documents within a set

14:15:14 [Andi]

intent of the SC, however, is to allow navigation to other pages within the set of web pages

14:15:23 [korn]

One document:

14:15:23 [korn]

- Section 1

14:15:23 [korn]

[quick links to sections 1, 2, 3]

14:15:23 [korn]

... content ...

14:15:23 [korn]

- Section 2

14:15:23 [korn]

[quick links to sections 1, 2, 3]

14:15:25 [korn]

... content ...

14:15:27 [korn]

- Section 3

14:15:29 [korn]

[quick links to sections 1, 2, 3]

14:15:31 [korn]

--- content ...

14:15:47 [Andi]

ack gregg

14:16:19 [Andi]

q+

14:16:41 [David]

q-

14:17:17 [Andi]

doesn't happen very often that a set of documents are published together and labeled as a set

14:17:38 [Andi]

encyclopedia, 3 volume report are examples

14:18:01 [janina]

q+ to object to "published together." Media a11y in html5 contemplates 3rd party additions of alternative media for a primary video resource.

14:18:10 [Andi]

TOC with no links is not a navigation mechanism

14:18:13 [Andi]

q-

14:18:41 [Andi]

if you have a navigation mechanism that allows navigation between the documents, they should occur in the same relative order

14:18:59 [Pierce]

+q

14:19:03 [Andi]

if you don't have a navigation mechanism that allows navigation between the documents, then the SC is automatically met

14:19:56 [korn]

q+

14:20:27 [Andi]

in software, if there are multiple navigation mechanisms for jumping around in software, they should be in the same order

14:21:01 [Pierce]

-q

14:21:06 [Andi]

ack janina

14:21:06 [Zakim]

janina, you wanted to object to "published together." Media a11y in html5 contemplates 3rd party additions of alternative media for a primary video resource.

14:22:53 [korn]

q-

14:22:57 [Andi]

example of video resource that is captioned after the fact. The non-accessible version and accessible version then become a set

14:23:07 [Pierce]

+q

14:23:30 [greggvanderheiden]

q+

14:24:01 [Andi]

ack Pierce

14:25:06 [Andi]

US federal government has to find a way to communicate this to large numbers of people - can't train people on subtleties

14:25:19 [Andi]

q+

14:25:45 [Andi]

multiple ways and consistent navigation are for everyone, not just people with disabilities

14:26:08 [Andi]

sometimes authors don't have a choice - have to follow style guides for generation and publication of public documents

14:30:04 [Andi]

for web pages, assumed that if you changed one of them, you could easily change the others

14:30:06 [korn]

q+

14:30:32 [Andi]

with documents, you might not change others in the set at the same time, maybe not ever

14:30:35 [Andi]

ack gregg

14:31:10 [Andi]

if not scoped to documents published at the same time, we open up feasibility arguments.

14:32:51 [Pierce]

+q

14:33:15 [Andi]

ack Andi

14:33:23 [janina]

Noting it's not unusual to publish a report as a series, in successive issues of a newspaper/journal

14:33:59 [Andi]

example of set of documents, each includes section on "Related Documents" with a list of all the others and links to them

14:34:08 [greggvanderheiden]

q+

14:34:12 [Andi]

another example is a multi-part report with links to the other parts

14:34:16 [Andi]

ack korn

14:34:44 [janina]

I like Andi's examples. They don't require same-time publication

14:34:58 [alex]

don't we have an action item?

14:35:04 [Andi]

ack Pierce

14:35:42 [Andi]

ack gregg

14:36:20 [Andi]

the SC does not require documents to have inter-document links

14:36:50 [Andi]

but IF you have a navigation mechanism for linking between the documents, they must occur in the same order in each

14:38:25 [korn]

q+

14:38:58 [Andi]

q+

14:39:38 [Andi]

ack korn

14:40:12 [Andi]

remaining issues - what are navigation mechanisms in software, what documents are covered and what are not, notes on what are examples of documents that are published at the same time

14:40:31 [BBailey]

Pierce, please include me too!

14:40:49 [Pierce]

k

14:41:13 [Andi]

action: Pierce to work with Gregg, Peter, Bruce, Alex, and Kiran on 3.2.3

14:41:13 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-47 - Work with Gregg, Peter, Bruce, Alex, and Kiran on 3.2.3 [on Pierce Crowell - due 2012-08-21].

14:41:35 [korn]

q+

14:41:35 [Andi]

topic: Software and the process exception in 2.4.5 Multiple Ways

14:41:37 [greggvanderheiden]

q+

14:41:38 [Andi]

ack andi

14:41:47 [Andi]

ack korn

14:42:46 [Andi]

unless we have notes or examples that exclude all of these, the exception for steps in a process won't work

14:43:40 [Andi]

discussion about items within a tree view

14:45:07 [Andi]

ack gregg

14:45:18 [Mike]

q+

14:48:53 [Andi]

have to decide what we mean by "web page" in software before we can solve this one

14:49:17 [Andi]

the requirement is to have multiple ways to get to a "web page", not to the "components of a web page"

14:49:26 [korn]

q+

14:49:30 [Andi]

ack mike

14:49:33 [Andi]

ack korn

14:51:42 [Andi]

topic: Interaction Context

14:51:44 [Zakim]

-Judy

14:52:01 [Zakim]

+Judy

14:52:06 [korn]

q+

14:52:39 [greggvanderheiden]

q+

14:54:25 [Andi]

comments can be used to improve the definition

14:56:13 [Andi]

question needs to be answered within the context of use of the term

14:57:03 [Andi]

for the purpose of conformance, the definition of IC may be good enough but may not be good enough for other contexts

14:57:05 [korn]

q-

14:57:42 [Andi]

ack gregg

14:59:10 [korn]

+1 to Gregg's comment about 'task' definition

14:59:14 [Andi]

suggestion that "system" is too large a scope. Perhaps changing "system" to "product" would be better

14:59:34 [Andi]

also issue with "task" in a regulatory context

15:00:02 [Andi]

if what we really mean is the whole product, maybe we should just say that

15:00:18 [korn]

q+

15:01:20 [Andi]

ack korn

15:02:44 [Andi]

in regulatory context, need to know where people need to know what an interaction context is

15:03:56 [greggvanderheiden]

q+

15:04:02 [Andi]

if tested all SC on all of the software, then you've tested all of the ICs

15:04:04 [Andi]

q+

15:04:23 [Andi]

q-

15:04:55 [Andi]

ack gregg

15:06:30 [Andi]

if we make the unit of evaluation "software", there may be a problem with the rules for providing an alternate conforming version

15:07:13 [Zakim]

-Bruce_Bailey

15:07:49 [Zakim]

+Bruce_Bailey

15:07:55 [korn]

q+

15:08:36 [Andi]

the software may provide an alterate way to do the function within the software rather in an alternate version of the software

15:10:33 [David]

q+

15:11:24 [Pierce]

In general, training developers is easier to conceive. There are fewer of them, they are already an audience, and they may actually understand some of the concepts and what is and is not within their control.

15:11:35 [korn]

q-

15:12:00 [Andi]

need to consider where we use the term - for example, conformance in addition to the individual SC

15:12:56 [Andi]

using software as the equivalent to web page works almost everywhere but not in the few that use "set of web pages"

15:12:58 [Andi]

ack David

15:13:57 [greggvanderheiden]

q+

15:15:51 [David]

q+

15:16:21 [Andi]

WCAG conformance requires each web page to conform even though some SC can only be evaluated within a set of web pages

15:16:28 [Andi]

ack gregg

15:17:23 [korn]

q+

15:17:44 [Andi]

conformance claims however are scoped to some set of web pages

15:18:08 [Andi]

ack david

15:20:13 [Andi]

ack korn

15:20:38 [Andi]

for regulatory context, we report on the entire product, not individual ICs

15:21:30 [greggvanderheiden]

q+

15:23:19 [Judy]

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15:23:44 [korn]

q+

15:25:13 [Andi]

the pragmatist approach suggested by Peter would take some time to get agreement on and probably would not be accepted for the M376 work

15:25:48 [Andi]

although it is probably the right direction, just can't be accommodated by the M376 time scales

15:26:06 [korn]

Note what our Work Statement (http://www.w3.org/2012/04/WCAG2ICT-WorkStatement.html) says about conformance: "Producing a Working Group Note ... that describes: ... what WCAG 2.0 Conformance means in the context of non-Web ICT". It doesn't say that we must define what a "conformance claim" is for non-web ICT.

15:26:31 [Andi]

508 ANPRM says "use WCAG". WCAG conformance is binary - you either conform or you don't

15:27:22 [korn]

q+

15:27:41 [Andi]

for the rest of 508, there are lots of provisions where you can indicate pass or fail. need a way to report on the individual provisions of WCAG

15:28:12 [Andi]

how conformance is reported may be outside our scope

15:28:59 [Andi]

it would be better if the provisions were required rather than the whole of conformance

15:30:08 [Zakim]

-Judy

15:31:09 [Andi]

conformance for software should say evaluate at the level of software except for those SC where different guidance is provided

15:31:48 [Andi]

ack gregg

15:32:29 [Zakim]

-Gregg_Vanderheiden

15:33:13 [greggvanderheiden]

I'm dead and of course can't get in but we can leave that question for next time

15:33:54 [Andi]

ack korn

15:34:29 [Andi]

work statement doesn't say we have to say what a conformance claim is in software, it just says we have to address conformance

15:34:40 [Andi]

we have flexibility in what we do in our report

15:36:10 [Zakim]

-Andi_Snow_Weaver

15:36:14 [Zakim]

-Janina

15:36:15 [Zakim]

-David_MacDonald

15:36:15 [Zakim]

-MaryJo

15:36:16 [Zakim]

-Kiran

15:36:16 [Zakim]

-Bruce_Bailey

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-Pierce_Crowell

15:36:18 [Zakim]

-[Microsoft]

15:36:18 [Andi]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:36:18 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/14-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi

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15:36:27 [Zakim]

- +1.661.748.aaaa

15:36:42 [Andi]

zakim, bye

15:36:42 [Zakim]

leaving. As of this point the attendees were Judy, Kiran, +1.661.748.aaaa, MaryJo, David_MacDonald, Andi_Snow_Weaver, [Microsoft], Gregg_Vanderheiden, Bruce_Bailey, Peter_Korn,

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... Janina, Pierce_Crowell

15:36:52 [Andi]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:36:52 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/14-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi

15:41:30 [Andi]

s/The call number will not let me log in//

15:41:40 [Andi]

s/got in//

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s/don't we have an action item?//

16:18:47 [Andi]

s/I'm dead and of course can't get in but we can leave that question for next time//

16:19:22 [Andi]

rrsagent, make minutes

16:19:22 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/14-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi

16:21:31 [Andi]

regrets: Loïc_Martínez_Normand

16:21:35 [Andi]

rrsagent, make minutes

16:21:35 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/14-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi

16:22:07 [Andi]

s/[Microsoft]/Alex_Li/

16:22:11 [Andi]

rrsagent, make minutes

16:22:11 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/14-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi

16:23:40 [Andi]

present+ Pierce_Crowell

16:23:45 [Andi]

rrsagent, make minutes

16:23:45 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/14-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi