13:51:17 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wcag2ict
13:51:17 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/08/10-wcag2ict-irc
13:51:19 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
13:51:19 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #wcag2ict
13:51:21 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2428
13:51:21 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
13:51:22 <trackbot> Meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
13:51:22 <trackbot> Date: 10 August 2012
13:53:34 <Zakim> WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM has now started
13:53:41 <Zakim> +Andi_Snow_Weaver
13:57:15 <korn> korn has joined #wcag2ict
13:57:26 <Andi> chair: Andi_Snow-Weaver
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13:58:47 <Zakim> +Shadi
13:59:08 <Kiran> Kiran has joined #wcag2ict
13:59:20 <shadi> zakim, mute me
13:59:20 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
13:59:50 <Zakim> +[Oracle]
13:59:59 <korn> Zakim, Oracle has Peter_Korn
13:59:59 <Zakim> +Peter_Korn; got it
14:00:00 <janina> janina has joined #wcag2ict
14:00:01 <Zakim> +??P4
14:00:14 <Andi> zakim, ??P4 is Janina_Sajka
14:00:14 <Zakim> +Janina_Sajka; got it
14:00:32 <Zakim> +Gregg_Vanderheiden
14:00:33 <Zakim> +Kiran
14:00:45 <David> David has joined #wcag2ict
14:00:46 <Zakim> +Bruce_Bailey
14:00:57 <BBailey> BBailey has joined #wcag2ict
14:01:00 <Zakim> + +1.202.447.aaaa
14:01:19 <Zakim> +David_MacDonald
14:01:19 <Mike> Mike has joined #wcag2ict
14:01:23 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
14:01:24 <Zakim> +MaryJo
14:01:28 <Andi> zakim, aaaa is Al_Hoffman
14:01:28 <Zakim> +Al_Hoffman; got it
14:01:42 <Andi> zakim, [Microsoft] has Alex_Li
14:01:42 <Zakim> +Alex_Li; got it
14:01:51 <MaryJo> MaryJo has joined #wcag2ict
14:02:29 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:02:41 <Andi> zakim, [IPcaller] is Mike_Pluke
14:02:41 <Zakim> +Mike_Pluke; got it
14:02:58 <Andi> scribe: MaryJo
14:03:12 <alex> alex has joined #wcag2ict
14:04:47 <MaryJo> AS: We are making good progress.  After today we'll likely have only 4 SC left to work on.
14:05:21 <Andi> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/AUG102012/results
14:05:36 <MaryJo> Topic: Survey for August 10
14:06:11 <MaryJo> AS: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/AUG102012/results#xq1
14:06:34 <MaryJo> AS: Suggestion of an edit for language to match where similar wording is used elsewhere.
14:06:48 <MaryJo> AS: Need to define navigational mechanisms for software.
14:08:05 <Zakim> -Al_Hoffman
14:08:10 <alex> q+
14:08:37 <greggvanderheiden> greggvanderheiden has joined #wcag2ict
14:09:14 <korn> q+
14:10:26 <Andi> ack alex
14:10:29 <MaryJo> GV: This SC is intended to require navigation mechanisms within a document.
14:11:13 <Andi> s/This SC is intended to require navigation mechanisms within a document./navigation mechanisms are something to help you navigate and move about within a document/
14:11:18 <Zakim> +Pierce_Crowell
14:11:30 <MaryJo> Alex: Does this SC mean that if you cover the same topics in a different document, you can't have the topics in a different order.
14:12:45 <Pierce> Pierce has joined #wcag2ict
14:13:40 <Pierce> +q
14:13:43 <Andi> ack korn
14:14:02 <MaryJo> A set of documents is considered a set if the publisher names them as a set (e.g. a set of 3 documents in a report).
14:15:11 <greggvanderheiden> q+
14:16:52 <alex> q+
14:17:12 <Kiran> q+
14:17:16 <MaryJo> There could be sets of sets of documents (e.g. a set of documents about an application and a set about the operating system). 
14:17:19 <Zakim> -Pierce_Crowell
14:17:22 <Andi> ack Pierce
14:17:46 <MaryJo> These sets may be from different publishers and so a violation may be introduced if these are packaged together.
14:18:16 <BBailey> q+ to ask if we want this to be scoped to pages or documents
14:18:22 <Mike> q+
14:18:44 <shadi> q+ to disagree that play/stop are not navigation mechanisms
14:19:10 <janina> q+ to suggest that pause/stop is navigation inasmuch as it stops forward/reverse movement.
14:21:14 <shadi> q- later
14:21:18 <Andi> ack gregg
14:22:53 <Andi> ack alex
14:24:08 <greggvanderheiden> q+
14:25:17 <Zakim> +Pierce_Crowell
14:25:28 <Pierce> meeting cancled
14:25:40 <Andi> s/meeting cancled//
14:25:48 <MaryJo> An HTML page is equivalent to a document.  If documents are always bundled and authored as a set are meant to be covered by this SC. If they are not authored as a set, but are bundled later this SC doesn't apply.
14:27:01 <MaryJo> ISO standards are sold as a set, but often each document in a set are published at a different time and even though the navigational mechanisms are similar, they are often not exactly the same.
14:27:34 <Pierce> +q
14:27:55 <shadi> q-
14:28:08 <MaryJo> Fundamental issue is that the definition of 'set' and what is or is not considered a set could be subject to interpretation.
14:28:51 <David> q+
14:28:55 <Pierce> -q
14:29:57 <Andi> ack Kiran
14:30:09 <Andi> ack BBailey
14:30:09 <Zakim> BBailey, you wanted to ask if we want this to be scoped to pages or documents
14:30:10 <Mike> q-
14:30:13 <BBailey> Navigational mechanisms that are repeated on multiple pages within a set of pages occur in the same relative order each time they are repeated, unless a change is initiated by the user.
14:30:16 <BBailey> Navigational mechanisms that are repeated on multiple documents within a set of documents occur in the same relative order each time they are repeated, unless a change is initiated by the user.
14:30:34 <korn> +1 for "documents"
14:30:35 <Andi> ack janina
14:30:35 <Zakim> janina, you wanted to suggest that pause/stop is navigation inasmuch as it stops forward/reverse movement.
14:32:19 <Pierce> +q
14:33:14 <Andi> ack gregg
14:34:23 <korn> q+
14:36:53 <Mike> q+
14:37:31 <MaryJo> A set of documents doesn't necessarily have to be published together, but over a period of time.  As long as they are declared as a part of the set.
14:37:59 <shadi> q+ to say that "play" function is to start the navigation/process
14:39:28 <korn> ack David
14:39:35 <korn> ack Pierce
14:41:33 <korn> http://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/consistent-behavior-consistent-locations.html
14:41:35 <Andi> ack korn
14:43:00 <korn> http://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/navigation-mechanisms-mult-loc.html
14:43:43 <greggvanderheiden> s/A set of documents doesn't necessarily have to be published together, but over a period of time.  As long as they are declared as a part of the set./A set of documents are documents published together.  Multipart standards are often published years apart and sold separately by different authors.  So they are not published together. Together is a key word/ 
14:44:59 <Andi> ack Mike
14:46:11 <greggvanderheiden> +1
14:46:14 <shadi> ack me
14:46:15 <Zakim> shadi, you wanted to say that "play" function is to start the navigation/process
14:46:30 <greggvanderheiden> q+
14:48:17 <shadi> zakim, mute me
14:48:17 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
14:48:32 <Andi> ack gregg
14:48:59 <korn> q+
14:49:26 <korn> q-
14:49:58 <Mike> +1
14:50:02 <korn> +1
14:50:40 <MaryJo> Need to have a discussion in WCAG on 'set' and 'navigational mechanisms' to describe the concepts.
14:51:03 <Pierce> +q
14:51:58 <Pierce> -q
14:52:09 <Mike> I think that the same argument to augment understanding applies for both
14:52:42 <MaryJo> Topic: Bypass blocks 2.4.1
14:53:06 <MaryJo> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/AUG102012/results#xq2
14:54:42 <greggvanderheiden> q+
14:56:51 <Mike> q+
14:56:51 <Pierce> +q
14:57:15 <Andi> ack gregg
14:57:29 <BBailey> q+
14:58:07 <MaryJo> Question posed: Does your perspective change if instead of this being the same application with two windows open, but instead two different instances of the same application running?  
14:58:49 <shadi> q+ to say that content might change in a predictable way (like contents of navigation bar)
15:00:09 <alex> q+
15:00:59 <korn> http://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/navigation-mechanisms-skip.html
15:01:32 <Andi> ack Mike
15:02:05 <greggvanderheiden> q+
15:02:16 <Andi> ack Pierce
15:03:28 <MaryJo> Most say this applies in the first instance, but not in the others. It is pretty trivial in the windowed environment to provide the ability to bypass things like menus,etc without tabbing through all of the controls.
15:03:45 <MaryJo> Mobile platform is more linear, so we do need to consider that.
15:03:51 <shadi> q-
15:04:17 <korn> q+
15:05:46 <MaryJo> These 3 SC we are discussing today are all interrelated so if we can describe software interactions, we can come up a combined solution.
15:06:05 <korn> ack Bruce
15:06:08 <korn> ack BBailey
15:06:27 <Andi> ack alex
15:06:36 <MaryJo> The examples that were provided for us to look at for the survey were the more questionable as to whether these situations apply.
15:07:20 <shadi> q+
15:08:34 <shadi> q-
15:10:30 <Pierce> +q
15:11:02 <Andi> ack gregg
15:12:06 <MaryJo> M376 language essentially says it is easy to do this but it is vitally important to do.  
15:12:08 <Andi> ack korn
15:12:58 <greggvanderheiden> q+
15:13:49 <korn> http://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/navigation-mechanisms-skip.html
15:15:29 <shadi> q+
15:15:52 <Andi> ack Pierce
15:16:56 <korn> q+
15:17:31 <Andi> ack gregg
15:18:03 <Zakim> -Mike_Pluke
15:19:53 <Zakim> +??P16
15:20:55 <MaryJo> In applications, any time you open a document there are many things that would need to be stepped over (e.g. menus and things) and this is the intent of the SC. In the Web, every time you open a page, a lot of things are tacked on to the page and there must be a way to jump over them.
15:21:06 <shadi> ack me
15:21:35 <Andi> zakim, ??P16 is Mike_Pluke
15:21:35 <Zakim> +Mike_Pluke; got it
15:22:24 <shadi> zakim, mute me
15:22:24 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
15:22:48 <MaryJo> When there are controls that are provided on every page or repeated (e.g. a group of checkboxes, etc.) should be skippable.
15:23:42 <MaryJo> Topic: Multiple ways in software - https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/AUG102012/results#xq4
15:24:30 <MaryJo> This is about locating, not necessarily navigating to an object.
15:25:00 <David> q+
15:25:02 <greggvanderheiden> q+
15:25:03 <alex> so can windows, btw
15:25:05 <Andi> +1 to Peter
15:25:08 <MaryJo> Sometimes voice control could be used to navigate.
15:25:17 <Andi> ack korn
15:25:21 <Andi> ack David
15:25:55 <Andi> ack gregg
15:26:41 <korn> q+
15:27:57 <MaryJo> The intent of the SC is for the user to be able to find things. To access functions: Menus are one way, keyboard shortcuts, and voice commands are all ways to get to those functions. 
15:28:34 <greggvanderheiden> q+
15:28:55 <MaryJo> Topic: First multiple ways 2.4.5 question in survey
15:28:56 <MaryJo> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/AUG102012/results#xq3
15:29:03 <shadi> q+
15:29:12 <Andi> ack korn
15:30:15 <BBailey> q+ To say "multiple ways" is the spirit of 2.4.5, but most software will fall under the explicit exception.
15:30:16 <MaryJo> The intent - this SC has to do with people using screen magnifiers and people with cognitive impairments.
15:31:23 <MaryJo> This is not about having multiple ways to getting to every part of a Web page, but getting to the Web page.
15:31:27 <shadi> q-
15:32:19 <MaryJo> There are no success criteria for having multiple ways to get to the parts or functions within an interaction context.
15:33:17 <MaryJo> If we take a literal approach, software may fall under the exception of this SC.
15:35:39 <Zakim> -[Oracle]
15:35:40 <Zakim> -Pierce_Crowell
15:35:41 <Zakim> -Bruce_Bailey
15:35:42 <Zakim> -Andi_Snow_Weaver
15:35:42 <Zakim> -Mike_Pluke
15:35:43 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
15:35:43 <Zakim> -Shadi
15:35:44 <Zakim> -David_MacDonald
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15:35:46 <Zakim> -Gregg_Vanderheiden
15:35:48 <Zakim> -Janina_Sajka
15:35:50 <Zakim> -Kiran
15:35:53 <Zakim> -MaryJo
15:35:56 <Zakim> WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM has ended
15:35:56 <Zakim> Attendees were Andi_Snow_Weaver, Shadi, Peter_Korn, Janina_Sajka, Gregg_Vanderheiden, Kiran, Bruce_Bailey, +1.202.447.aaaa, David_MacDonald, MaryJo, Al_Hoffman, Alex_Li,
15:36:01 <Zakim> ... Mike_Pluke, Pierce_Crowell
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16:27:51 <Andi> rrsagent, make minutes
16:27:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/10-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
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18:13:34 <Andi> s/GV://
18:13:40 <Andi> s/Alex://
18:13:44 <Andi> rrsagent, make minutes
18:13:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/10-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
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