13:58:37 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wcag2ict
13:58:37 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/08/03-wcag2ict-irc
13:58:39 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
13:58:39 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #wcag2ict
13:58:41 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2428
13:58:41 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
13:58:42 <trackbot> Meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
13:58:42 <trackbot> Date: 03 August 2012
13:58:49 <Andi> chair: Mike_Pluke
13:58:54 <Andi> scribe: Andi_Snow-Weaver
13:59:10 <Zakim> WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM has now started
13:59:17 <Zakim> +Shadi
13:59:20 <Zakim> +Peter_Korn
13:59:25 <janina> janina has joined #wcag2ict
13:59:27 <Zakim> +??P3
13:59:36 <janina> zakim, ??P3 is Janina
13:59:36 <Zakim> +Janina; got it
13:59:54 <BBailey> BBailey has joined #wcag2ict
14:00:03 <shadi> zakim, mute me
14:00:03 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
14:00:03 <Andi> regrets: Loïc_Martínez_Normand, Kiran_Kaja
14:00:08 <Zakim> +??P4
14:00:17 <David> David has joined #wcag2ict
14:00:25 <Zakim> + +0162859aaaa
14:00:32 <Zakim> +Gregg_Vanderheiden
14:00:44 <Zakim> +Bruce_Bailey
14:01:05 <BBailey> zakim, mute me
14:01:05 <Zakim> sorry, BBailey, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
14:01:05 <Kiran> Kiran has joined #wcag2ict
14:01:25 <BBailey> zakim, mute bbailey
14:01:25 <Zakim> sorry, BBailey, I do not know which phone connection belongs to bbailey
14:01:29 <Zakim> +David_MacDonald
14:01:38 <BBailey> zakim, mute Bruce
14:01:38 <Zakim> Bruce_Bailey should now be muted
14:01:39 <Zakim> +Andi_Snow_Weaver
14:02:02 <BBailey> zakim, bbailey is Bruce_bailey
14:02:03 <Zakim> sorry, BBailey, I do not recognize a party named 'bbailey'
14:02:15 <BBailey> zakim, BBailey is Bruce_Bailey
14:02:15 <Zakim> sorry, BBailey, I do not recognize a party named 'BBailey'
14:02:26 <Zakim> +Judy
14:03:15 <Judy> zakim, who's here?
14:03:15 <Zakim> On the phone I see Shadi (muted), Peter_Korn, Janina, ??P4, +0162859aaaa, Gregg_Vanderheiden, Bruce_Bailey, David_MacDonald, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Judy
14:03:17 <Zakim> On IRC I see Kiran, David, BBailey, janina, Zakim, RRSAgent, Mike, korn_, Andi, Judy, shadi, trackbot
14:03:32 <Judy> zakim, mute Bruce_Bailey
14:03:32 <Zakim> Bruce_Bailey should now be muted
14:03:50 <BBailey> zakim, Bruce_Bailey is BBailey
14:03:50 <Zakim> +BBailey; got it
14:04:29 <greggvanderheiden> greggvanderheiden has joined #wcag2ict
14:04:32 <Mike> 41#
14:04:44 <Andi> s/41#//
14:04:57 <Andi> zakim, ??P4 is Mike_Pluke
14:04:57 <Zakim> +Mike_Pluke; got it
14:05:13 <Zakim> -Gregg_Vanderheiden
14:05:14 <Zakim> +MaryJo
14:05:27 <Andi> zakim, +0162859aaaa is Kiran_Kaja
14:05:27 <Zakim> +Kiran_Kaja; got it
14:05:42 <MaryJo> MaryJo has joined #wcag2ict
14:06:01 <Zakim> +??P16
14:06:13 <greggvanderheiden> that's me == gregg
14:06:27 <Andi> topic: Action Items http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG2ICT-TF/track/actions/open
14:06:37 <Andi> zakim, ??P16 is Gregg_Vanderheiden
14:06:37 <Zakim> +Gregg_Vanderheiden; got it
14:06:59 <greggvanderheiden> zakin ??P16 is Gregg
14:07:05 <Andi> action-22?
14:07:05 <trackbot> ACTION-22 -- Gregg Vanderheiden to work with Pierce, Al, David, Loïc, Alex to draft proposal for 2.4.5 -- due 2012-07-06 -- OPEN
14:07:05 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG2ICT-TF/track/actions/22
14:07:06 <Zakim> + +1.410.965.aabb
14:07:16 <greggvanderheiden> zaki ??P16 is Gregg
14:07:23 <Judy> zakim, ??P16 is Gregg
14:07:23 <Zakim> I already had ??P16 as Gregg_Vanderheiden, Judy
14:07:25 <Pierce> Pierce has joined #wcag2ict
14:07:33 <shadi> zakim, who is muted?
14:07:33 <Zakim> I see Shadi, BBailey muted
14:07:41 <Andi> zakim, +1.410.965.aabb is Pierce_Crowell
14:07:41 <Zakim> +Pierce_Crowell; got it
14:09:11 <Pierce> +q
14:09:40 <korn_>   Q+
14:09:48 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
14:10:00 <Andi> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:10:00 <Zakim> On the phone I see Shadi (muted), Peter_Korn, Janina, Mike_Pluke, Kiran_Kaja, BBailey (muted), David_MacDonald, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Judy, MaryJo, Gregg_Vanderheiden, Pierce_Crowell,
14:10:03 <Zakim> ... [Microsoft]
14:10:25 <Andi> ack ??P4
14:11:22 <Andi> M376 found that in trying to map the conformance requirements to software and documents, they need a term substitution
14:12:00 <korn_> Q?
14:12:04 <Andi> zakim, [Microsoft] has Alex_Li
14:12:04 <Zakim> +Alex_Li; got it
14:12:43 <alex> alex has joined #wcag2ict
14:12:50 <David> q+
14:15:17 <BBailey> q+
14:15:28 <greggvanderheiden> q+
14:15:40 <Andi> ack pierce
14:16:04 <BBailey> q+ to say that our guidance should take advantage of "the result of, or a step in, a process"
14:16:57 <Andi> ack korn_
14:17:19 <BBailey> zakim, unmute me
14:17:19 <Zakim> BBailey should no longer be muted
14:18:31 <Kiran> Just for info, we say in Mandate 376 that 2.4.5 multiple ways doesn't apply
14:19:23 <Andi> Issues raised about applicability even to documents due to ambiguity of determining what a "set of documents" is
14:20:06 <Andi> ack David
14:20:27 <Andi> ack BBailey
14:20:27 <Zakim> BBailey, you wanted to say that our guidance should take advantage of "the result of, or a step in, a process"
14:20:55 <Zakim> +Gregg_Vanderheiden.a
14:21:18 <BBailey> zakim, mute me
14:21:18 <Zakim> BBailey should now be muted
14:21:21 <Andi> exception seems to cover most of software
14:21:33 <alex> q+
14:21:35 <Andi> ack gregg
14:21:43 <Mike> q+
14:22:09 <korn_> Q+
14:22:25 <BBailey> Also, this is one of few SC very directly oriented towards cognitive disabilities.
14:23:00 <Pierce> +q
14:24:09 <Andi> in WCAG, we found that techniques were necessary but they are out of scope for this task force
14:24:56 <Judy> q+
14:25:49 <Andi> techniques for non-web documents and software seem clearly out of scope for W3C work
14:26:17 <Andi> ack alex
14:26:52 <BBailey> q+
14:27:17 <BBailey> ack bbaile
14:28:06 <greggvanderheiden> q+
14:28:15 <Andi> q+ to give an example of software that might not qualify for the exception
14:28:18 <BBailey> zakim, mute me
14:28:18 <Zakim> BBailey should now be muted
14:28:22 <Andi> ack mike
14:28:47 <Zakim> -MaryJo
14:29:12 <Andi> ack korn
14:29:51 <Zakim> +MaryJo
14:30:29 <Andi> ack pierce
14:33:19 <Andi> ack judy
14:34:11 <Andi> discussion about documents - not always multiple files - presentation can have embedded audio and video files for example 
14:34:43 <Andi> 2.4.5 is very web centric and should just not apply to documents and software
14:35:25 <Andi> TF scope is very narrow and we can't develop techniques but can we capture some of these examples to be used by others?
14:35:37 <Andi> ack gregg
14:37:12 <BBailey> q+ to ask Alex or Piece to suggest software scenario where single way to find location is *not* a step in a process
14:38:01 <BBailey> zakim, unmute me
14:38:01 <Zakim> BBailey should no longer be muted
14:39:50 <Pierce> +q
14:39:51 <Andi> collect the examples of problems and anallyze them
14:39:53 <Andi> ack andi
14:39:53 <Zakim> Andi, you wanted to give an example of software that might not qualify for the exception
14:39:57 <Andi> ack bbailey
14:39:57 <Zakim> BBailey, you wanted to ask Alex or Piece to suggest software scenario where single way to find location is *not* a step in a process
14:40:10 <korn_> Q+
14:40:19 <Andi> ack pierce
14:40:41 <greggvanderheiden> q+
14:41:32 <Andi> s/2.4.5 is very web centric and should just not apply to documents and software/suggestion that 2.4.5 seems to be very web centric and should just not apply to documents and software/
14:41:45 <alex> please join the 2.4.5 subgroup, bruce
14:42:01 <Zakim> -Peter_Korn
14:42:03 <BBailey> zakim, mute me
14:42:03 <Zakim> BBailey should now be muted
14:42:24 <BBailey> Alex, I would love to be on 2.4.5 subgroup, not sure how I missed that one!
14:42:35 <Zakim> +Peter_Korn
14:42:48 <Andi> q- korn_
14:42:52 <Andi> ack gregg
14:43:16 <Andi> action-25?
14:43:16 <trackbot> ACTION-25 -- Gregg Vanderheiden to work with Andi, Peter, Kiran to draft new proposal for 3.1.1 and 3.1.2 -- due 2012-07-10 -- OPEN
14:43:16 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG2ICT-TF/track/actions/25
14:43:18 <korn_> Q+
14:47:00 <Andi> committee should take a look at proposal #5 for 3.1.1 and 3.1.2 just to see if there are any major problems before we survey them
14:48:34 <Andi> s/3.1.1 and//
14:52:43 <Judy> q+
14:53:01 <Judy> q-
14:53:15 <Andi> ack korn
14:54:13 <Andi> suggestion to survey 3.1.1 and 3.1.2 to gather TF input
14:56:23 <Andi> RESOLUTION: survey 3.1.1 and 3.1.2 for Tuesday
14:57:18 <Andi> topic: Survey on the term to use instead of "title attribute" in 2.4.2 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/20120803/
15:00:30 <Judy> zakim, who's on the phone?
15:00:30 <Zakim> On the phone I see Shadi (muted), Janina, Mike_Pluke, Kiran_Kaja, BBailey (muted), David_MacDonald, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Judy, Gregg_Vanderheiden, Pierce_Crowell, [Microsoft],
15:00:33 <Zakim> ... Gregg_Vanderheiden.a, MaryJo, Peter_Korn
15:00:33 <Zakim> [Microsoft] has Alex_Li
15:02:15 <Andi> WCAG did not accept the idea of tieing 2.4.2 conformance to 4.1.2
15:02:31 <Zakim> -Peter_Korn
15:02:32 <David> q+
15:02:55 <Zakim> +Peter_Korn
15:03:39 <Andi> ack david
15:04:28 <Mike> q+
15:04:56 <Andi> WCAG issue was that meeting 4.1.2 might not ensure that the title is available to those who are not using AT (i.e. visible)
15:05:46 <greggvanderheiden> q+
15:05:59 <BBailey> That is not how I would have paraphrased WCAG issue.
15:06:04 <Andi> David notes that this is mostly used by blind users and offers to  speak to others in the user community
15:07:10 <Andi> ack mike
15:07:14 <BBailey> q+ to say tat Loretta's issue was more about orientation on mobile phones
15:07:29 <Andi> ack gregg
15:07:36 <BBailey> zakim, unmute me
15:07:36 <Zakim> BBailey should no longer be muted
15:07:39 <korn_> Q+
15:09:00 <Mike> q+
15:09:52 <BBailey> s/tat/that/
15:09:57 <Andi> ack bb
15:09:57 <Zakim> BBailey, you wanted to say tat Loretta's issue was more about orientation on mobile phones
15:10:42 <BBailey> s/tat/that/
15:10:56 <BBailey> zakim, mute me
15:10:56 <Zakim> BBailey should now be muted
15:11:49 <Judy> q+
15:12:15 <Andi> ack korn
15:12:20 <BBailey> I don't read 2.4.2 intent to require or imply that @title be visible. 
15:13:21 <Judy> q-
15:14:01 <Andi> ack mike
15:15:14 <David> q+
15:15:58 <David> q-
15:16:37 <Andi> topic: issue of definition of "user interface context" 
15:16:38 <greggvanderheiden> q+
15:16:43 <korn_> Q+
15:17:21 <Andi> blocking progress on most of the remaining SC
15:17:45 <Andi> q+
15:18:01 <Judy> q?
15:18:28 <Andi> ack gregg
15:18:56 <Andi> web page is the basis for WCAG conformance so we need to have a non-web equivalent for it
15:21:43 <Andi> zakim, who is making noise?
15:21:44 <korn_> Q?
15:21:50 <Andi> ack korn
15:21:53 <Zakim> Andi, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Peter_Korn (45%), Mike_Pluke (29%), David_MacDonald (19%), Gregg_Vanderheiden (9%)
15:23:19 <greggvanderheiden> greggvanderheiden has joined #wcag2ict
15:23:30 <greggvanderheiden> q+
15:23:31 <Andi> suggestion that for software, "software application" should be the scope of conformance
15:24:03 <korn_> Q-
15:24:23 <Andi> ack andi
15:24:36 <greggvanderheiden> if software is the unit of conformance then software is the equiv of Web Page  -- not sure that that works
15:24:39 <Andi> ack gregg
15:25:44 <korn_> Q+
15:26:22 <Andi> ack korn
15:26:40 <korn_> Q-
15:27:02 <Mike> Current M376 approach, including conformance is at www.mandate376.eu
15:28:07 <shadi> [[Deliverable D1]]
15:28:29 <shadi> http://www.mandate376.eu/doc/EN301549V005.zip
15:30:12 <Zakim> -MaryJo
15:30:57 <korn_> Q+
15:31:25 <BBailey> q+ to ask if diff marked version between m376 004 and 005?
15:31:51 <BBailey> ack bbb
15:31:56 <BBailey> ack bb
15:31:57 <Andi> ack korn
15:31:57 <Zakim> BBailey, you wanted to ask if diff marked version between m376 004 and 005?
15:32:13 <korn_> Q-
15:32:19 <BBailey> s/m376/EU m376/
15:32:44 <Zakim> -Shadi
15:33:41 <Zakim> -Peter_Korn
15:34:00 <Zakim> -Kiran_Kaja
15:34:01 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
15:34:01 <Zakim> -Gregg_Vanderheiden
15:34:02 <Zakim> -BBailey
15:34:02 <Zakim> -Pierce_Crowell
15:34:03 <Zakim> -Judy
15:34:03 <Zakim> -Andi_Snow_Weaver
15:34:05 <Zakim> -David_MacDonald
15:34:07 <Zakim> -Janina
15:34:11 <janina> janina has left #wcag2ict
15:34:24 <Andi> rrsagent, make minutes
15:34:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/03-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
15:35:25 <Zakim> -Mike_Pluke
15:40:25 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, Gregg_Vanderheiden.a, in WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM
15:40:28 <Zakim> WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM has ended
15:40:28 <Zakim> Attendees were Shadi, Peter_Korn, Janina, Gregg_Vanderheiden, David_MacDonald, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Judy, BBailey, Mike_Pluke, MaryJo, Kiran_Kaja, Pierce_Crowell, Alex_Li
15:44:10 <Andi> zakim, bye
15:44:10 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wcag2ict
15:44:14 <Andi> rrsagent, make minutes
15:44:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/03-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
16:00:09 <greggvanderheiden> greggvanderheiden has joined #wcag2ict
16:07:11 <greggvanderheiden> greggvanderheiden has joined #wcag2ict
16:33:05 <Andi> Andi has joined #wcag2ict
17:58:25 <Andi> Andi has joined #wcag2ict
18:02:55 <greggvanderheid-1> greggvanderheid-1 has joined #wcag2ict
18:03:49 <greggvanderheid-2> greggvanderheid-2 has joined #wcag2ict
20:18:07 <greggvanderheiden> greggvanderheiden has joined #wcag2ict
20:18:21 <greggvanderheiden> greggvanderheiden has joined #wcag2ict
20:29:10 <greggvanderheid-1> greggvanderheid-1 has joined #wcag2ict
20:35:37 <greggvanderheiden> greggvanderheiden has joined #wcag2ict
22:20:18 <greggvanderheiden> greggvanderheiden has joined #wcag2ict
22:22:53 <greggvanderheiden> greggvanderheiden has joined #wcag2ict
22:23:24 <greggvanderheiden> greggvanderheiden has joined #wcag2ict