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13:58:58 <fsasaki> meeting: MLW-LT WG
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13:59:03 <fsasaki> chair: felix
13:59:29 <fsasaki> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Jul/0254.html
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14:00:29 <fsasaki> hi raphael, is gotomeeting working for you
14:00:40 <raphael> we are about to dial
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14:01:17 <fsasaki> scribe: daveL
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14:03:21 <daveL> chair: fsasaki
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14:04:05 <daveL> Meeting: MLW-LT weekly teleconf 26th July 2012 12.00 UTC
14:04:05 <omstefanov> Hi everybody!
14:04:22 <fsasaki> present: dave, felix, des, dom, olaf, sebastian, yves, raphael, guiseppe
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14:04:44 <fsasaki> present+ leroy
14:04:50 <fsasaki> present+ pablo
14:05:19 <fsasaki> topic: named entity syntax discussion 
14:05:22 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Jul/0280.html
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14:06:35 <fsasaki> raphael and guiseppe introducing themselves and NERD 
14:06:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
14:06:53 <daveL> raphael: descibes NERD platform developed with giuseppeerizzo
14:07:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
14:07:18 <raphael> NERD: nerd.eurecom.fr
14:07:33 <raphael> s/nerd.eurecom.fr/http://nerd.eurecom.fr/
14:07:33 <daveL> sebastien: introduces himself as member of LOD2 project and developer of NIF and striving to make this compatible with ITS2.0
14:07:47 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Jul/0280.html
14:08:46 <daveL> tadej: named entitiy dc call for concesus distirbuted 
14:09:17 <raphael> NERD: a broker over numerous web APIs that perform Named Entity extraction, offers an ontology, an API and a Web UI for performing experiments
14:09:19 <daveL> ...related to terminology but not an extension due to its1.0 backward compatibility option
14:09:52 <daveL> ... two use cases: type of named entity and which named entity being mentioned
14:10:45 <daveL> tadej: disambiguation uses similar pattern but is a separate use case, pointing to a specific meaning in a semantic network
14:11:18 <raphael> I would rather say that the disambiguation comes from a semantic network, or a knowledge base or a dataset (e.g. dbpedia) ... not an ontology since we are talking about instances
14:11:30 <daveL> tadej: examples included for XML, HTML, the latter with RDFa lite.
14:11:49 <pablomendes> q+ the term "resource" is used throughout to refer to something related to "namespace" in the XML world, or a "data source" 
14:11:54 <daveL> ...microdata would be very similar
14:12:00 <fsasaki> ack pab
14:12:29 <raphael> q+ entityTypeResourceRef should be a URI ... not a string, right?
14:12:41 <raphael> q+ to ask entityTypeResourceRef should be a URI ... not a string, right?
14:13:07 <daveL> pablomendes: asks if term resource is confusing because of different useages in language resource and web resources community 
14:13:36 <pablomendes> namespace or just "source"
14:14:14 <daveL> tadej: could use 'named graph', but perhaps a bit obscure. 'name space' better but conflicts with xml namespace
14:14:42 <daveL> tadej: suggestion from floor 'source ref' may be better
14:14:44 <fsasaki> ack ra
14:14:44 <Zakim> raphael, you wanted to ask entityTypeResourceRef should be a URI ... not a string, right?
14:15:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
14:15:25 <daveL> raphael: for disamibuate use term 'knowledge base' rather than 'ontology'
14:15:53 <daveL> ... resource ref is mistakenly a string rather than URI
14:16:05 <daveL> tadej: yes its an error
14:16:20 <pablomendes> global = stand off?
14:16:43 <daveL> ... also explains ITS pattern of local and global tag methods
14:17:10 <pablomendes> local = inline?
14:17:32 <daveL> fasaki: comparable to CSS and has equivalent of cascading rules
14:18:01 <fsasaki> some background here about "global" and "local" http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-its20-20120626/#basic-concepts-selection
14:18:13 <daveL> tadej: also there is inherntence, e.g. to specify dbpedia as source for all reference
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14:19:06 <raphael> s/disamibuate/disambiguate
14:19:25 <fsasaki> present+ jirka
14:19:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
14:19:38 <pablomendes> wondering if "knowledge base", "thesaurus", "ontology", "semantic network" couldn't all be subsumed by "vocabulary"
14:19:54 <pablomendes> since the type of knowledge representation is not important here. All those are essentially providers of URIs (vocabularies of globally unique identifers)
14:19:57 <daveL> tadej: also 3rd example mentions usage of rdfa lite so be consistent with simple usage and standoff annotation
14:20:09 <raphael> yes pablo, but for types disambiguation, we should talk about vocabulary (ontology, thesaurus)
14:20:20 <daveL> ... providing mapping between simple rdfa markup and ITS markup
14:20:20 <raphael> ... while  for entities  disambiguation, we should talk about datasets
14:20:50 <raphael> e.g. dbpedia has 2 parts, the OWL ontology (dbpedia-owl) and the dataset part (much larger)
14:21:12 <pablomendes> another name clash, I guess. the Linked Data community already took "vocabulary" as meaning schema
14:21:35 <raphael> pablo, we are talking about the same thing ... I use vocabulary as in the  Linked Data community
14:21:48 <daveL> tadej: answer pablo question, knowledge based is preferable to vocabulary
14:22:38 <daveL> pablomendes: knowledge is probalby fine for this user community, or perhaps entity vocabulary
14:22:57 <Sebastian> identifiers ?
14:23:10 <raphael> identifiers farm :-)
14:23:53 <daveL> tadej: identifiers could work, with example of instnace, 'onotlogies' etc
14:24:41 <fsasaki> link to terminology data category: http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-its20-20120626/#terminology
14:24:52 <raphael> q+ to ask what is the added value of using the nerd type as value of the typeof attribute (in RDFa) over the native type provided by an extractor
14:24:58 <daveL> tadej: responds to sebastian's question that neamed entity and disambiguation are separate from terminology in the affermative
14:25:01 <raphael> s/instnace/instance
14:25:05 <Sebastian> http://wiktionary.dbpedia.org/resource/dog
14:25:08 <raphael> s/onotlogies/ontologies
14:25:27 <Sebastian> http://wiktionary.dbpedia.org/page/dog-English-Verb-2fr
14:26:02 <daveL> Sebastian: is an issue since repositories such as wiktionary as like knowledge bases
14:26:42 <pablomendes> q+ can't the distinction between word and entity come from the type?
14:26:54 <raphael> Sebastian, there is a relationship between http://dbpedia.org/resource/Dog and http://wiktionary.dbpedia.org/resource/dog ?
14:26:59 <daveL> tadej: disambiguation lets you specify that type - entity or word 
14:27:21 <daveL> ... as there are difference between inserting terminology link and entity link
14:27:24 <fsasaki> ack ra
14:27:24 <Zakim> raphael, you wanted to ask what is the added value of using the nerd type as value of the typeof attribute (in RDFa) over the native type provided by an extractor
14:27:30 <fsasaki> q+ pablo
14:28:38 <daveL> raphael: rdfa example query about different vocab are being used
14:28:53 <daveL> ... and which tool generated it
14:29:06 <daveL> tadej: handled by separate data category
14:29:32 <fsasaki> see that data category, textanalysis annotation, listed here http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Implementation_Commitments#Data_categories_2 
14:30:38 <pablomendes> rephrase attempt: what are the relationships between LexicalEntry instances from Wiktionary and entities in DBpedia?
14:31:13 <pablomendes> perhaps lexvo:lexicalization?
14:31:30 <pablomendes> http://www.lexvo.org/page/term/eng/lexicalization
14:31:49 <Sebastian> http://wiktionary.dbpedia.org/page/dog-English-Noun-1en
14:32:50 <daveL> Sebastien: responding to rapheal, that in wiktionary the separation between lexical entry and concept is not alway clearly defined 
14:32:50 <Yves_> q+ In example 1 the rule is <its:entity> but it's <its:namedEntityRule> in example 3. Is this just a typo, or are those two different types of rules? Because in example 3 we have entityTypeRef="@typeof" (an XPath expression) but its:entityTypeRef="http:/nerd.eurecom.fr/ontology#Place" (a URI) in example 1. Is entityTypeRef of example 3 is supposed to be entityTypeRefPointer?
14:32:57 <fsasaki> ack pab
14:33:04 <daveL> ... might be a tool artefact that cause confusion
14:33:07 <fsasaki> ack yv
14:33:11 <raphael> http://dbpedia.org/page/dog does not resolve BUT http://dbpedia.org/page/Dog does !
14:33:14 <fsasaki> q+ pablo
14:33:34 <daveL> Yves: title is not consistent - entity or name entity
14:33:52 <daveL> tadej: an error, will fix this
14:34:07 <raphael> s/rapheal/raphael
14:34:12 <daveL> Yves: example should be an entity pointer
14:34:17 <fsasaki> FYI, "pointer" attribute means: pointing to existing information in the document
14:34:22 <daveL> tadej: will fix this
14:34:50 <daveL> raphael: what is relation between its draft and NIF
14:35:21 <daveL> tadej: there is some overlap and will be addressed in future, perhaps as a separate part or document
14:35:33 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-its20-20120626/
14:36:00 <daveL> Sebastian: we are considering document some roundtrip scenario between ITS and NIF 
14:37:04 <daveL> fsasaki: some initial work undertaken
14:37:16 <fsasaki> ack pab
14:37:18 <pablomendes> wrt. its:disambigType = (word | entity) can't the distinction between word and entity be inferred from entityTypeRef? e.g. wiktionary:doc is a word, dbpedia:Dog is an entity
14:37:58 <daveL> raphael: is disambig type redundant with entity type ref?
14:38:14 <pablomendes> s/raphael/pablo/
14:38:16 <Sebastian> no, it's meta-meta
14:38:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
14:38:36 <daveL> tadej: this is possible, but unlcear how to maintain this mapping and how users can infer this this
14:39:12 <raphael> Q+ to ask what are the implementations of "Internationalization Tag Set (ITS) Version 1.0" and the main diff between 1.0 and 2.0 ?
14:40:14 <Sebastian> I really hav to learn how this speaker queue things work, where can I RTFM ?
14:40:28 <daveL> tadej: disambiguation use cases are often used in cases where text is short and lacks context
14:41:38 <daveL> ... and computational lingusitic community draw a clear distinction ebtween lexical and conceptual meaning
14:41:39 <fsasaki> ack raph
14:41:39 <Zakim> raphael, you wanted to ask what are the implementations of "Internationalization Tag Set (ITS) Version 1.0" and the main diff between 1.0 and 2.0 ?
14:42:19 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/its20/its20.html#relation-to-its10
14:42:50 <daveL> fsasaki: there is a seciton describing difference, mainly html5 coverage and new daa categories
14:43:38 <daveL> ... its1.0 focussed more on classic i18n and l10n, its2.0 bring in more language technology integration
14:43:50 <daveL> raphael; which tools implement its1.0
14:44:29 <fsasaki> okapi http://okapi.sourceforge.net/
14:44:33 <daveL> yves: there is rainbow in okapi framework as well as translation tools such as trados
14:44:35 <fsasaki> trados translation tool
14:44:46 <fsasaki> http://okapi.opentag.com/
14:45:06 <Yves_> http://www.opentag.com/okapi/wiki/index.php?title=ITS
14:45:15 <daveL> fsasaki: thanks everyone
14:45:21 <pablomendes> thank you
14:45:40 <daveL> action: tadej to integrate this feedback
14:45:40 <trackbot> Created ACTION-181 - Integrate this feedback [on Tadej Štajner - due 2012-08-02].
14:45:41 <raphael> http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-its2req-20120524/#Automatic_enrichment_of_the_source_content_with_named_entity_annotations
14:46:21 <daveL> fsasaki: aim to finalise entity related meta-data.
14:46:43 <Yves_> another real-life implementation: http://itstool.org/
14:47:04 <daveL> ... this link has lots of other requirements, but we aim to keep things simple as possible to hit w3c timescale including november feature freeze
14:47:18 <raphael> thanks all
14:47:51 <fsasaki> topic: its 20 draft publication
14:48:03 <daveL> rrsagent, generate minutes
14:48:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-mlw-lt-minutes.html daveL
14:48:05 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/its20/its20.html
14:48:20 <daveL> topic: publication of working draft
14:48:39 <daveL> fsasaki: any objections to publication - there are none
14:49:05 <daveL> action: fsasaki to publish update to working draft next week
14:49:05 <trackbot> Created ACTION-182 - Publish update to working draft next week [on Felix Sasaki - due 2012-08-02].
14:49:34 <daveL> fsasaki: will plan another draft in latter half of august
14:49:38 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Implementation_Commitments
14:49:49 <daveL> topic: implementation committments
14:50:17 <daveL> fsaski: please keep implementation commmittments table uptodate
14:50:47 <daveL> yves: will try very hard to implement disambiguation and named entity data category
14:51:49 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/drafts/its20/its20.odd
14:52:18 <daveL> fsasaki: tells tadej to continue working on word version and then when finished editors will integrate into ITS draft doc
14:53:15 <fsasaki> topic: call for consensus
14:53:34 <daveL> fsasaki: any comment on parameter for rule and target points, are there further comments
14:53:42 <daveL> ... no disagreement
14:53:53 <fsasaki> scribe: fsasaki
14:54:12 <fsasaki> yves: domain, inheritance discussion
14:54:18 <fsasaki> .. the discussion with declan
14:54:22 <fsasaki> .. what is the outcome?
14:54:36 <fsasaki> dave: it was about the fact that in practice with statistical MT
14:54:44 <fsasaki> .. some domains will be more important than others
14:54:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
14:55:22 <fsasaki> dave: I was saying that the rules precedence is different than the domain precendence declan was talking about
14:55:39 <fsasaki> .. in statistical MT, you have sometimes domain precedence
14:56:00 <fsasaki> yves: my question was about the domain precedence attribute
14:56:24 <fsasaki> felix: yves is asking about the impliciation for implementing domain
14:56:42 <fsasaki> dave: do we want to put this as a new optional attribute, e.g. these are the ones that represent the primary domain
14:57:01 <fsasaki> .. it is another optional attribute, need to get declan's feedback what's best
14:57:20 <fsasaki> .. in practice it will not be a definite instruction, not on the side of MT providers
14:57:39 <fsasaki> .. it is a hint, not a mechanical choice
14:58:05 <fsasaki> yves: looking at the example of domain rules
14:58:08 <fsasaki> .. usage a) and b)
14:58:19 <fsasaki> .. you have a domain precedence attribute and criminal law and medical
14:58:31 <fsasaki> .. you have a domain poitner that says where to get the information
14:58:36 <fsasaki> .. the precedence is in the rule
14:58:42 <fsasaki> .. but how do you know which value to use
14:58:47 <fsasaki> .. it is not listed in the domain
14:59:04 <fsasaki> .. so what is the relationship
14:59:09 <fsasaki> .. do we need a domain precedence pointer
14:59:19 <fsasaki> dave: not sure we really need it
14:59:23 <fsasaki> .. need feedback from declan
14:59:48 <fsasaki> .. a separate MT provider may do other decisions
14:59:54 <fsasaki> .. a company like adobe might use it
15:00:03 <fsasaki> .. section doing the content, versus the one for MT training
15:00:19 <fsasaki> .. looked whether it is actually needed - it's a borderline use case
15:00:43 <fsasaki> yves: seems to be a border case
15:00:50 <fsasaki> dave: I agree
15:01:37 <fsasaki> action: dave6 to contact declan and thomas about domain new attribute proposal
15:01:37 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - dave6
15:02:04 <fsasaki> action: felix to integrate parameters for rules and target pointer into the spec
15:02:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-183 - Integrate parameters for rules and target pointer into the spec [on Felix Sasaki - due 2012-08-02].
15:02:43 <fsasaki> topic: aob
15:02:51 <fsasaki> dave: we are adding more content explaining things
15:03:02 <fsasaki> .. we end up putting in descriptions of standoff markup that we are pointing to
15:03:10 <fsasaki> .. are we happy to put that in the document?
15:03:54 <daveL> scribe: daveL
15:04:32 <daveL> fsasaki: responding to query on non normative standoff markup exmaples - we should definitely collect this and then decide how best ot present this
15:04:52 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-i18n-bp/
15:05:00 <daveL> ... next year we have more opportunity for separate best practice best practices as in ITS1.0
15:05:01 <omstefanov> q+ re materials above and in additions to ITS 2.0
15:05:53 <daveL> ... and can take other things into account, such as use of meta data in more complex workflow scneairo
15:07:09 <fsasaki> ack o
15:07:09 <Zakim> omstefanov, you wanted to discuss materials above and in additions to ITS 2.0
15:07:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
15:07:34 <daveL> omstefanov: many other fields include commentaries on normative or legal content, including exmaples and implementation quesitons etc
15:08:07 <fsasaki> action: felix to prepare a place for BP material
15:08:08 <trackbot> Created ACTION-184 - Prepare a place for BP material [on Felix Sasaki - due 2012-08-02].
15:09:19 <Des> q+ re agenda for prague f2f
15:09:29 <fsasaki> ack de
15:09:29 <Zakim> Des, you wanted to discuss agenda for prague f2f
15:10:29 <Jirka> Logistics page is at http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/PragueSep2012
15:10:35 <fsasaki> action: felix to prepare agenda draft for prague
15:10:35 <trackbot> Created ACTION-185 - Prepare agenda draft for prague [on Felix Sasaki - due 2012-08-02].
15:11:02 <omstefanov> Nevertheless, I want to make one more pitch to use the more globally understood term, "Commentaries on ..." rather than "Best Practices" which, even if what you says applies, Felix, usually is understood in a more restricted sense.
15:12:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-mlw-lt-minutes.html fsasaki
15:12:50 <daveL> rrsagent, generate minutes
15:12:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-mlw-lt-minutes.html daveL
15:13:03 <omstefanov> bye, y'all and thanks
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16:23:19 <fsasaki> zakim, bye
16:23:19 <Zakim> Zakim has left #mlw-lt
16:23:21 <fsasaki> rrsagent, bye
16:23:21 <RRSAgent> I see 6 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-mlw-lt-actions.rdf :
16:23:21 <RRSAgent> ACTION: tadej to integrate this feedback [1]
16:23:21 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-mlw-lt-irc#T14-45-40
16:23:21 <RRSAgent> ACTION: fsasaki to publish update to working draft next week [2]
16:23:21 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-mlw-lt-irc#T14-49-05
16:23:21 <RRSAgent> ACTION: dave6 to contact declan and thomas about domain new attribute proposal [3]
16:23:21 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-mlw-lt-irc#T15-01-37
16:23:21 <RRSAgent> ACTION: felix to integrate parameters for rules and target pointer into the spec [4]
16:23:21 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-mlw-lt-irc#T15-02-04
16:23:21 <RRSAgent> ACTION: felix to prepare a place for BP material [5]
16:23:21 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-mlw-lt-irc#T15-08-07
16:23:21 <RRSAgent> ACTION: felix to prepare agenda draft for prague [6]
16:23:21 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-mlw-lt-irc#T15-10-35