13:50:40 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wcag2ict
13:50:40 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/07/17-wcag2ict-irc
13:50:42 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
13:50:42 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #wcag2ict
13:50:44 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2428
13:50:44 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM scheduled to start in 10 minutes
13:50:45 <trackbot> Meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
13:50:45 <trackbot> Date: 17 July 2012
13:50:54 <Andi> chair: Andi_Snow-Weaver
13:51:35 <Andi> agenda+ Action items https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG2ICT-TF/track/actions/open
13:51:45 <Andi> agenda+ Survey for July 17th
13:51:59 <Andi> agenda+ Work items to be completed for publication of first public working draft
13:52:10 <Andi> agenda+ Confirm next meeting time; action items;
13:54:43 <greggvanderheiden> greggvanderheiden has joined #wcag2ict
13:55:02 <Judy> Judy has joined #wcag2ict
13:55:29 <Zakim> WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM has now started
13:55:36 <Zakim> +Gregg_Vanderheiden
13:56:05 <Zakim> +Andi_Snow_Weaver
13:56:52 <korn> korn has joined #wcag2ict
13:57:43 <Mike> Mike has joined #wcag2ict
13:57:57 <Zakim> +Al_Hoffman
13:58:09 <Zakim> +Judy
13:59:03 <Loic> Loic has joined #wcag2ict
13:59:39 <Zakim> +??P6
13:59:51 <Zakim> +[Oracle]
13:59:56 <Andi> zakim, ??P6 is Loïc_Martínez_Normand
13:59:56 <Zakim> +Loïc_Martínez_Normand; got it
13:59:59 <Loic> Zakim, ??P6 is Loic_Martinez
13:59:59 <Zakim> I already had ??P6 as Loïc_Martínez_Normand, Loic
14:00:00 <korn> Zakim, Oracle has Peter_Korn
14:00:01 <Zakim> +Peter_Korn; got it
14:00:40 <Zakim> +David_MacDonald
14:01:02 <David> David has joined #wcag2ict
14:01:04 <Zakim> +Kiran_Keja
14:01:09 <janina> janina has joined #wcag2ict
14:01:14 <Zakim> +Cooper
14:01:17 <Zakim> +??P14
14:01:31 <Zakim> +??P15
14:01:32 <Andi> zakim, ??P14 is Mike_Pluke
14:01:32 <Zakim> +Mike_Pluke; got it
14:01:45 <Andi> zakim, ??P15 is Janina_Sajka
14:01:45 <Zakim> +Janina_Sajka; got it
14:02:06 <BBailey> BBailey has joined #wcag2ict
14:02:21 <Kiran> Kiran has joined #wcag2ict
14:02:24 <Andi> scribe: Loïc_Martínez_Normand
14:02:30 <Andi> ScribeNick: Loic
14:02:32 <Judy> Judy has joined #wcag2ict
14:02:37 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
14:02:51 <Andi> zakim, Microsoft has Alex_Li
14:02:51 <Zakim> +Alex_Li; got it
14:03:12 <Andi> zakim, next item
14:03:12 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Action items https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG2ICT-TF/track/actions/open" taken up [from Andi]
14:03:21 <Zakim> +Bruce_Bailey
14:03:54 <Loic> Andi: We are going through the action items.
14:05:01 <Loic> Andi: done most editing tasks except for links to editor's draft of Understanding
14:05:18 <greggvanderheiden> q+
14:05:41 <Loic> Andi: JB is working on introduction and frontmatter
14:06:19 <Andi> ack gregg
14:06:50 <Loic> Andi: extend actions 29 and 30 as they are supposed to be after first public draft
14:07:12 <Loic> GV: asking about how to close actions 22-24
14:07:27 <Loic> Andi: prefers to leave action 24 until surveyed
14:07:44 <korn> q+
14:07:47 <alex_> alex_ has joined #wcag2ict
14:07:58 <Loic> GV: wants to know the procedure to say that something is finished ans ready for survey
14:08:40 <Loic> Andi: explains how to edit the action and change the status
14:09:02 <Loic> Andi: but notifications don't seem to be working
14:09:26 <Judy> zakim, who's making noise?
14:09:36 <Zakim> Judy, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
14:10:43 <Loic> Andi asked MC for help on actions and mail notifications. MC will look at it.
14:11:08 <Andi> action: Michael to look at why e-mails are not getting attached to the actions
14:11:08 <trackbot> Created ACTION-38 - Look at why e-mails are not getting attached to the actions [on Michael Cooper - due 2012-07-24].
14:12:27 <Loic> Andi, MC: a possibility is to change the "Person" assignment back to Andi and she'll get notified.
14:14:22 <Loic> Andi: to extend due dates on 29 and 30. To be done after draft publication.
14:15:58 <korn> q+
14:16:46 <Loic> LM: not finished action-36 and he doesn't know when he will be able to finish (travel to a conference and a M376 meeting)
14:16:59 <Loic> Andi: maybe LM can do a walkthrough today
14:17:20 <Loic> Partial result: https://sites.google.com/site/wcag2ict/cross-cutting-issues-and-notes/software-ui-vs-software-aspects-of-products
14:17:37 <Andi> ack korn
14:18:17 <Loic> PK: suggests having some reviewers notes in the draft so that people will know things that are still being worked on
14:18:36 <Loic> q?
14:19:32 <Loic> JB: possibility of using "editor's notes"
14:20:35 <Loic> GV: we could make a list of editor's notes to look at them on Friday to make sure that they are adequate
14:22:00 <Andi> action: Peter to draft proposal for editor's notes
14:22:00 <trackbot> Created ACTION-39 - Draft proposal for editor's notes [on Peter Korn - due 2012-07-24].
14:22:05 <Loic> Andi: proposes adding this list in the introduction.
14:22:10 <Judy> s/possibility of/cautions about/
14:22:14 <Andi> zakim, next item
14:22:14 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Survey for July 17th" taken up [from Andi]
14:22:26 <Andi> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/JUL172012/results 
14:24:05 <Andi> topic: 2.4.6 Headings and Labels
14:24:25 <Loic> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/JUL172012/results#xq1
14:25:39 <Loic> Note that in software user interfaces, heading and labels are used to describe blocks of text and controls respectively. In some cases it may be unclear whether a piece of fixed text is a heading or a label. But whether treated as a label or a heading, the requirement is the same: that if they are present they describe the topic or purpose of the thing(s) they are associated with. 
14:26:07 <Loic> q?
14:26:17 <Mike> +1 to items
14:26:25 <Loic> +1 to items
14:26:28 <Andi> Note that in software user interfaces, heading and labels are used to describe blocks of text and controls respectively. In some cases it may be unclear whether a piece of fixed text is a heading or a label. But whether treated as a label or a heading, the requirement is the same: that if they are present they describe the topic or purpose of the item(s) they are associated with. 
14:26:55 <korn> +1
14:27:09 <Andi> Note that in software user interfaces, headings and labels are used to describe blocks of text and controls respectively. In some cases it may be unclear whether a piece of static text is a heading or a label. But whether treated as a label or a heading, the requirement is the same: that if they are present they describe the topic or purpose of the item(s) they are associated with. 
14:27:53 <Loic> RESOLUTION: 2.4.6 Accepted as amended in the meeting
14:28:54 <Andi> topic: 3.3.1 Error Identification
14:29:04 <Loic> Andi: Next topic 4.1.1. Not ready yet.
14:29:17 <Loic> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/JUL172012/results#xq3
14:30:07 <korn> q+
14:30:19 <Loic> Andi: has written proposal #4 based on Gregg's proposal and the survey comments
14:32:28 <Loic> PK: has a question of some situations that may belong or not to 3.3.1
14:32:53 <David> q+
14:32:58 <Andi> ack korn
14:33:45 <Andi> action: Gregg to work with Peter to draft example of input that falls outside the allowed range for 3.3.1
14:33:45 <trackbot> Created ACTION-40 - Work with Peter to draft example of input that falls outside the allowed range for 3.3.1 [on Gregg Vanderheiden - due 2012-07-24].
14:33:52 <Andi> ack David
14:34:50 <Loic> RESOLUTION: Accept proposal #4 on 3.3.1 as written 
14:35:11 <Loic> topic: 3.3.3 error suggestion
14:35:23 <Loic> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/JUL172012/results#xq4
14:36:00 <Loic> Andi: has made proposal #4 with edits coming from the survey
14:36:22 <korn> +1
14:36:23 <Loic> q?
14:36:27 <Loic> +1
14:36:39 <Loic> RESOLUTION: accept proposal #4 for 3.3.3 as written
14:36:59 <Loic> topic: use of "interactive document" on 2.2.1
14:37:06 <Loic> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/JUL172012/results#xq5
14:38:04 <Loic> Andi: most are in favour of "electronic documents"
14:38:24 <Loic> Andi: prefers "interactive documents" but accepts "electronic documents" for this draft
14:38:46 <Loic> GV: difficult to differentiate between "interactive" and "non-interactive" documents
14:39:08 <korn> q+
14:39:37 <Loic> GV: suggests adding a note "after consensus" so we don't forget about "interactive documents"
14:39:45 <Loic> q?
14:39:45 <korn> q-
14:40:29 <Andi> action: Andi to start discussion to revisit use of "electronic document" in 2.2.1 - used to be "interactive document"
14:40:29 <trackbot> Created ACTION-41 - Start discussion to revisit use of "electronic document" in 2.2.1 - used to be "interactive document" [on Andi Snow-Weaver - due 2012-07-24].
14:41:02 <Loic> RESOLUTION: change "interactive document" to "electronic document" in 2.2.1
14:41:17 <Loic> topic: draft of introduction
14:41:26 <Loic> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/JUL172012/results#xq6
14:41:42 <Loic> JB: goes in order through the comments in the survey
14:42:17 <MichaelC> close action-38
14:42:17 <trackbot> ACTION-38 Look at why e-mails are not getting attached to the actions closed
14:43:10 <Loic> JB: Alex's proposal of "reinterpret" vs "apply"
14:43:10 <alex_> q+
14:43:11 <korn> q+
14:43:24 <Andi> ack alex
14:44:17 <greggvanderheiden> q+q+
14:44:24 <Loic> AL: clarifies that "reinterpret" is for those cases where some SC may not really apply to non-web ICT
14:44:26 <greggvanderheiden> q+
14:44:31 <Andi> ack q+
14:44:35 <korn> q-q+
14:44:37 <Andi> ack korn
14:45:32 <Judy> q?
14:45:37 <alex_> q+
14:45:37 <Judy> q+
14:45:41 <Loic> PK: reminds us that we have talked about changing the working statement. Suggests that we could ask WCAG WG for permission to use "reinterpret" after this draft
14:46:19 <Andi> ack gregg
14:46:50 <Loic> GV: trying to figure out what is the different. We are in fact writing about "how to apply" WCAG
14:46:52 <Andi> ack alex
14:47:40 <Loic> AL: "Apply" implies something that is straightforward. But our work hasn't been so straightforward. So he suggests "reinterpret" in those cases.
14:47:52 <korn> q+
14:47:57 <Andi> ack judy
14:48:00 <greggvanderheiden> q+
14:48:57 <Loic> JB: sees no place where "reinterpret" could work in current text to replace "apply".
14:49:23 <alex_> q+
14:50:54 <Andi> q+ Al_Hoffman
14:50:58 <Andi> ack korn
14:51:05 <Loic> JB: Thinks that we look to another way to deal with this issue
14:51:45 <Loic> PK: suggests writing that the work has not been straightforward instead of replacing "apply"
14:51:48 <Judy> s/reinterpret/interpret or reinterpret/
14:51:54 <Andi> ack gregg
14:53:05 <Loic> GV: agrees that AL has raised a valid point but we need to write that we had to "reinterpret" to explain how to "apply".
14:53:27 <Andi> ack alex
14:54:28 <Judy> q+
14:54:46 <Andi> ack al
14:54:47 <greggvanderheiden> q+
14:54:49 <Loic> AL: wants us to calibrate our language to show that there are things that are problematic and based on what we can deliver now.
14:55:13 <Andi> ack judy
14:55:14 <Loic> AH: Agrees with Alex. Would accept a paragraph explaining this.
14:55:20 <Zakim> -Al_Hoffman
14:55:35 <korn> Judy: what about this: "In many cases it was not straightforward to apply the WCAG SC language to software and electronic documents, and the task force had to interpret their intent &/or meaning in those contexts."
14:55:58 <Loic> q?
14:56:42 <Andi> ack gregg
14:57:07 <Judy> s/Judy: what about this/Judy, what about this/
14:57:41 <Andi> s/what about this:/what about this?/
14:58:43 <alex_> we only talked about the 1st paragraph
14:59:09 <Judy> q+
14:59:20 <Loic> GV: wants us to stay neutral
14:59:31 <Loic> q?
14:59:39 <Andi> How about "In many cases there are not direct <something> to web pages in software and electronic documents, and the task force had to interpret their intent &/or meaning in those contexts."
14:59:44 <Loic> ack Judy
15:00:12 <greggvanderheiden> I think it would be better worded at  "In some cases the task force had to interpret their intent &/or meaning in those contexts.
15:00:44 <korn> q+
15:01:50 <Andi> ack konr
15:01:53 <Andi> ack korn
15:04:29 <Loic> RESOLUTION: (Intro, ¶ 1) replace "the application" with "the interpretation and application"
15:04:39 <Andi> action: Alex to work with Judy, Gregg, and Peter on proposing language in the introduction related to issue of "interpretation" 
15:04:39 <trackbot> Created ACTION-42 - Work with Judy, Gregg, and Peter on proposing language in the introduction related to issue of "interpretation"  [on Alex Li - due 2012-07-24].
15:04:41 <Loic> JB: next comment
15:06:14 <alex_> q+
15:06:31 <Loic> What about just: "It is intended to help organizations that wish to use WCAG 2.0 across all ICT that they develop, procure, and/or assess for accessibility."
15:06:35 <Loic> q+
15:06:35 <korn> +1 to offline
15:06:38 <greggvanderheiden> Suggest this is part of the same topic and action 
15:07:03 <Loic> q-
15:07:37 <Andi> ack alex
15:07:41 <Judy> q+
15:07:49 <Andi> ack judy
15:07:51 <Zakim> -Mike_Pluke
15:08:23 <Loic> JB: next comment on "all ICT"
15:08:44 <Loic> JB: most agree to remove "all"
15:09:11 <Judy> s/most/several/
15:10:22 <Loic> q?
15:10:59 <Loic> PK: after discussion agrees on removing "all" to lower expectations
15:11:10 <Judy> RESOLUTION: (Intro, ¶ 1) remove "all" in "across all ICT"
15:12:13 <korn> q+
15:12:22 <Loic> JB: next on "user interface context" use in the introduction
15:12:44 <Loic> GV: we should put new terms that we have but not word that we are not using
15:12:48 <Loic> q?
15:13:19 <Andi> ack korn
15:14:13 <Loic> PK: on "software user interfaces" vs "software aspects of products". That is part of "editor's notes".
15:14:35 <Judy> RESOLVED: (last ¶  ) remove "user interface context" 
15:15:41 <Loic> q+
15:16:34 <Loic> RESOLUTION: (last ¶ ) remove "user interface context"
15:16:41 <Andi> ack loic
15:17:38 <Loic> JB: next comments from PK in the survey
15:19:23 <Loic> PK: it is a problem of double interpretation of the sentence.
15:19:58 <Loic> +1
15:20:14 <Judy> RESOLUTION: (Intro, ¶ 2) Remove "As with WCAG 2.0"
15:20:56 <Judy> RESOLVED:  (Intro, ¶ 2) Drop first "specifically"
15:21:12 <Loic> RESOLUTION: (Intro, ¶ 2) Drop first "specifically"
15:22:10 <Loic> JB: next comment on whether or not WCAG should be applied to non-web ICT
15:23:10 <Loic> q?
15:24:29 <Loic> JB: explains that this is based on our work statement
15:24:33 <Loic> PK: agrees
15:24:42 <Loic> JB: next comment by BB
15:25:01 <Loic> JB: asks for clarification on BB comment
15:25:15 <Andi> q+
15:25:22 <Zakim> -Gregg_Vanderheiden
15:25:24 <Zakim> +??P30
15:25:30 <Loic> GV: explains that links will be to the future "editor's draft" of understanding
15:25:46 <Loic> q?
15:26:04 <Andi> ack andi
15:26:12 <Zakim> +??P0
15:27:03 <Andi> RESOLUTION: modify link to Understanding WCAG 2.0 to point to the editors draft and change the wording to include "linking to"
15:28:02 <Loic> JB: next comment from DM on having a bulleted list. Suggest not to.
15:28:06 <Loic> David: OK
15:28:43 <Loic> JB: next comment from Andi about clarifying that WCAG may not be enough.
15:32:14 <korn> q+
15:33:14 <Loic> JB: discussing about how to deal with these comments in preparation for draft publication
15:34:36 <Loic> Andi: proposes a plan for having several surveys to process content in the draft to speed the process
15:34:55 <Loic> GV: asks for clarification
15:35:23 <Loic> Andi: suggest a first survey on SC that can be sent, then a second survey with the introduction
15:36:36 <korn> q-
15:37:03 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
15:37:05 <Zakim> -Judy
15:37:07 <Zakim> -Bruce_Bailey
15:37:07 <janina> janina has left #wcag2ict
15:37:10 <Zakim> -Kiran_Keja
15:37:12 <Zakim> -Janina_Sajka
15:37:13 <Zakim> -David_MacDonald
15:37:17 <Zakim> -Cooper
15:37:18 <Zakim> -Andi_Snow_Weaver
15:37:20 <Zakim> -??P30
15:37:25 <Andi> zakim, bye
15:37:25 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wcag2ict
15:37:26 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Gregg_Vanderheiden, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Al_Hoffman, Judy, Loïc_Martínez_Normand, Peter_Korn, David_MacDonald, Kiran_Keja, Cooper,
15:37:26 <Zakim> ... Mike_Pluke, Janina_Sajka, Alex_Li, Bruce_Bailey
15:37:31 <Andi> rrsagent, make minutes
15:37:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/17-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
16:02:18 <korn> korn has left #wcag2ict
16:57:34 <Andi> s/ack q+//
16:57:55 <Andi> s/trying to figure out what is the different/trying to figure out what is the difference/
16:57:56 <Judy> Judy has joined #wcag2ict
16:58:42 <Andi> s/wants to know the procedure to say that something is finished ans ready for survey/wants to know the procedure to say that something is finished and ready for survey/
17:00:12 <Andi> s/but notifications don't seem to be working/but e-mails to the list that have ACTION-XX in the subject are not being collected in the related action/
17:00:44 <Andi> s/Andi asked MC for help on actions and mail notifications./Andi asked MC for help on actions and related e-mails./
17:01:20 <Andi> s/Andi, MC:/MC:/
17:23:17 <Andi> rrsagent, make minutes
17:23:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/17-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
17:26:10 <Andi> s/reminds us that we have talked about changing the working statement./reminds us that we have talked about changing the TF work statement./
17:28:13 <Andi> s/next comment from DM on having a bulleted list. Suggest not to./next comment from DM on having a bulleted list. Suggest not to to preserve consistency with the TF work statement./
17:29:08 <Andi> rrsagent, make minutes
17:29:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/17-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
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21:26:03 <Andi> tracbot, end meeting
21:26:16 <Andi> trackbot, end meeting
21:26:16 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
21:26:24 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
21:26:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/17-wcag2ict-minutes.html trackbot
21:26:25 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
21:26:25 <RRSAgent> I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/17-wcag2ict-actions.rdf :
21:26:25 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael to look at why e-mails are not getting attached to the actions [1]
21:26:25 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/17-wcag2ict-irc#T14-11-08
21:26:25 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Peter to draft proposal for editor's notes [2]
21:26:25 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/17-wcag2ict-irc#T14-22-00
21:26:25 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Gregg to work with Peter to draft example of input that falls outside the allowed range for 3.3.1 [3]
21:26:25 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/17-wcag2ict-irc#T14-33-45
21:26:25 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Andi to start discussion to revisit use of "electronic document" in 2.2.1 - used to be "interactive document" [4]
21:26:25 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/17-wcag2ict-irc#T14-40-29
21:26:25 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Alex to work with Judy, Gregg, and Peter on proposing language in the introduction related to issue of "interpretation"  [5]
21:26:25 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/17-wcag2ict-irc#T15-04-39