13:48:54 RRSAgent has joined #wcag2ict 13:48:54 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/07/13-wcag2ict-irc 13:48:56 RRSAgent, make logs world 13:48:56 Zakim has joined #wcag2ict 13:48:58 Zakim, this will be 2428 13:48:58 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes 13:48:59 Meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference 13:48:59 Date: 13 July 2012 13:49:28 agenda+ Action items https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG2ICT-TF/track/actions/open 13:49:58 agenda+ Summary of WCAG 2.0 decision on SC we sent for their review, starting with 1.2.2 and 1.2.4 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wcag2ict-tf/2012Jul/0031.html 13:50:15 agenda+ Work items to be completed for publication of first public working draft 13:50:58 agenda+ Discuss strategies for blocking issues - "user interaction context", 2.4.1 and 3.2.3 survey comments, remaining SC https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/JUL062012/results 13:56:00 David has joined #wcag2ict 13:56:39 WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM has now started 13:56:46 +David_MacDonald 13:57:40 +Judy 13:59:01 +Andi_Snow_Weaver 13:59:53 chair: Andi_Snow-Weaver 14:00:28 Loic has joined #wcag2ict 14:00:56 Mike has joined #wcag2ict 14:01:08 +[Microsoft] 14:01:10 korn has joined #wcag2ict 14:01:15 +??P6 14:01:31 zakim, Microsoft has Alex_Li 14:01:31 +Alex_Li; got it 14:01:34 +Kiran_Keja 14:01:51 +Bruce_Bailey 14:02:09 zakim, ??P6 is Loic_Martinez_Normand 14:02:09 +Loic_Martinez_Normand; got it 14:02:13 BBailey has joined #wcag2ict 14:02:36 +??P9 14:02:40 alex has joined #wcag2ict 14:02:50 zakim, ??P9 is Mike_Pluke 14:02:50 +Mike_Pluke; got it 14:02:59 -Judy 14:03:21 +Al_Hoffman 14:03:34 +Judy 14:04:19 +[Oracle] 14:04:20 Zakim, Oracle has Peter_Korn 14:04:20 +Peter_Korn; got it 14:04:24 janina has joined #wcag2ict 14:04:27 scribe: Andi 14:04:38 zakim, next item 14:04:38 agendum 1. "Action items https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG2ICT-TF/track/actions/open" taken up [from Andi] 14:04:38 Kiran has joined #wcag2ict 14:04:52 +??P12 14:05:02 zakim, ??P12 is Janina_Sajka 14:05:02 +Janina_Sajka; got it 14:05:23 https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG2ICT-TF/track/actions/18 14:06:36 greggvanderheiden has joined #wcag2ict 14:06:52 leave action 18 open but will probably be resolved as part of the UI Context work 14:06:54 +??P13 14:07:09 zakim, ??P13 is Gregg_Vanderheiden 14:07:09 +Gregg_Vanderheiden; got it 14:09:08 +Pierce_Crowell 14:09:37 action: Judy to draft Introduction section 14:09:37 Created ACTION-31 - Draft Introduction section [on Judy Brewer - due 2012-07-20]. 14:09:43 Pierce has joined #wcag2ict 14:10:32 action: Judy to finish drafting Frontmatter 14:10:32 Created ACTION-32 - Finish drafting Frontmatter [on Judy Brewer - due 2012-07-20]. 14:10:33 Pierce has joined #wcag2ict 14:10:45 -Judy 14:11:12 leave actions 22 and 25 open to be resolved with action 24 14:11:22 +Judy 14:11:22 zakim, next item 14:11:24 agendum 2. "Summary of WCAG 2.0 decision on SC we sent for their review, starting with 1.2.2 and 1.2.4 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wcag2ict-tf/2012Jul/0031.html" 14:11:24 ... taken up [from Andi] 14:11:35 q+ 14:12:25 -[Microsoft] 14:12:25 scribe: David 14:12:27 q- 14:12:47 https://sites.google.com/site/wcag2ict/home/1-perceivable/12-provide-alternatives-for-time-based-media/122-captions-prerecorded 14:13:00 Topic: 1.2.2 and 1.2.2 14:13:23 s/1.2.2/1.2.4 14:13:40 Judy has joined #wcag2ict 14:13:45 scribe: Judy 14:14:26 q+ 14:14:46 +[Microsoft] 14:15:14 Zakim, Microsoft has Alex_Li 14:15:14 +Alex_Li; got it 14:16:59 RESOLUTION: Accept WCAG 2.0 proposal on 1.2.2 and 1.2.4 to remove the note about players [& fix closing quote] 14:17:41 https://sites.google.com/site/wcag2ict/home/1-perceivable/14-make-it-easier-for-users-to-see-and-hear-content---including-separating-foreground-from-background/144-resize-text 14:18:04 This success criterion applies directly as written and as described in intent from Understanding WCAG 2.0. 14:18:04 Electronic content and electronic documents that have software players, viewers or editors with a 200 percent zoom feature would automatically meet this SC unless the content or document will not work with zoom. 14:18:04 The INTENT refers to the ability to allow users to enlarge the text on screen at least up to 200 % without needing to use assistive technologies. This means that either the application itself, or one of the platforms under it, provides some means for enlarging the text 200% (zoom or otherwise) without loss of content or functionality. If a platform capability is relied upon, the application supports the platform capability. 14:18:32 WCAG asked us to remove this sentence: If a platform capability is relied upon, the application supports the platform capability. 14:18:41 q+ 14:19:12 q+ 14:19:26 Discussion about what was the WG concern regarding platform capability 14:19:43 q+ 14:19:43 Pierce has joined #wcag2ict 14:19:51 ack korn 14:20:20 q+ Gregg_Vanderheiden 14:20:20 +q 14:20:26 ack bbbailey 14:20:29 q+ 14:20:41 ack bbailey 14:20:59 Was is circuitous, or non-essential? Possibly reword as a note? Seems that it just needed clarification of the wording. 14:21:15 ack alex 14:21:55 http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-wai-wcag-minutes.html#item03 14:22:11 ack gregg 14:22:34 q+ 14:22:37 q+ to say that "the application supports the platform capability" is a statement, not a *requirement" 14:22:53 If a platform capability is provided, the application supports the platform capability. 14:22:56 ack pierce 14:23:03 ack mike 14:23:06 q+ 14:23:18 q+ 14:23:22 ack korn 14:23:47 Checking WG survey responses. Seems that it's an essential concept that is not addressed in the paragraph clearly or sufficiently. 14:23:54 ack bbail 14:23:54 BBailey, you wanted to say that "the application supports the platform capability" is a statement, not a *requirement" 14:24:11 ack kiran 14:24:44 q+ 14:25:03 q+ 14:25:12 q- 14:25:50 This means that the application provides some means for enlarging the text 200% (zoom or otherwise) without loss of content or functionality or that the application supports the platform features that meets this requirement. 14:25:55 ack loic 14:26:08 If one solely relies on the platform, it foregoes the possibility that a developer would go beyond the platform support. 14:26:09 ack gregg 14:26:11 q+ 14:27:39 q+ 14:27:56 Discussion of other interpretations. WG captured the following, though: this seems insufficiently clear, and the TF is invited to re-word and re-submit. That was the conclusion from WG discussion. 14:28:51 We talked about relying on zoom -- when you rely on that, you need not to defeat that. You need to _work with_ the zoom feature. 14:28:58 This means that the application provides some means for enlarging the text 200% (zoom or otherwise) without loss of content or functionality or that the application works with the platform features that meets this requirement. 14:29:26 But it needs not to be worded with "support" since that might confuse people wrt to accessibility support. 14:30:34 Perhaps re-word the sentence before? General comments of, 'that works'... 14:32:35 RESOLUTION: Accept 1.4.4 as amended (New Proposal from TF meeting 13July12) 14:33:12 https://sites.google.com/site/wcag2ict/home/3-understandable/33-help-users-avoid-and-correct-mistakes/331-error-identification 14:33:49 q+ 14:33:56 q+ 14:34:02 ack andi 14:34:27 Pierce_ has joined #wcag2ict 14:34:32 q- 14:34:32 ack korn 14:35:00 Discussion on error identification. 14:35:47 ack loic 14:35:49 Perhaps just position as an explanatory note. Some people may not think about how input errors are processed, but not really part of the intent. 14:36:51 +1 14:37:04 Shall we send the WG a note to modify the intent? They approved this, with the exception of those paragraphs. 14:37:36 Andi takes action to draft the modification proposal. 14:37:42 action: Andi to draft proposal to modify WCAG intent for 3.3.1 to replace note about definition of input error 14:37:42 Created ACTION-33 - Draft proposal to modify WCAG intent for 3.3.1 to replace note about definition of input error [on Andi Snow-Weaver - due 2012-07-20]. 14:38:34 RESOLUTION: Accept WCAG proposal to remove last two paragraphs of 3.3.1 14:39:10 Discussion of Parsing; the WG didn't accept our wording, and asked us to try again. 14:39:12 Andi - I volunteer for both... Can I have those AIs in this tracker? 14:39:28 Reminder of pending actions assigned at the WG meeting. Re-record those here. 14:39:46 action: Peter to draft new proposal for 2.4.6 taking into consideration the WCAG survey comments 14:39:46 Created ACTION-34 - Draft new proposal for 2.4.6 taking into consideration the WCAG survey comments [on Peter Korn - due 2012-07-20]. 14:40:16 action: Peter to work with Loretta, James, Michael, and Bruce to draft new proposal on 4.1.1 14:40:17 Created ACTION-35 - Work with Loretta, James, Michael, and Bruce to draft new proposal on 4.1.1 [on Peter Korn - due 2012-07-20]. 14:41:50 Checking on which items to add to the WCAG WG survey... yes, we're sending them item 1.3.1. 14:42:01 zakim, next item 14:42:01 agendum 3. "Work items to be completed for publication of first public working draft" taken up [from Andi] 14:42:10 Maybe also our 3.1.1 note. 14:43:02 q+ 14:43:44 ack gregg 14:44:09 1.3.2 Meaningful sequence https://sites.google.com/site/wcag2ict/home/3-understandable/33-help-users-avoid-and-correct-mistakes/331-error-identification 14:44:09 l 14:44:27 +1 14:44:30 +1 14:44:47 https://sites.google.com/site/wcag2ict/project-plan 14:44:50 Discussion of what we need to get done before publishing our first public WD. Probably won't yet have consensus on user interface @@. Other pieces, perhaps to be sent up with simpler language. 14:44:50 +1 14:46:11 q+ 14:46:32 Considering 1.3.2, 1.4.2, 1.4.3... these were consensed without that term defined, but since consensus on the term was pending, proposing sending these anyway. 14:47:23 ack korn 14:47:23 q- 14:48:13 also 2.4.2, 2.4.3, 3.3.2, 3.3.3 14:50:31 q+ 14:50:38 q+ 14:50:54 One sentence was a concern, regarding non-web context that doesn't have activity behind it. Specific concern regarding relation to a particular success criteria... re-examine before sending up? Wording around "interactive context" may need attention. 14:52:06 2.4.2 & 2.4.3 may be OK on this; 2.3.2 has the issue, 1.3.2 doesn't have it... nor 1.4.2, nor 1.4.3 14:52:29 -David_MacDonald 14:52:50 E.g. for 3.3.3, remove the 2nd paragraph from: 14:52:50 Additional guidance when applying to Electronic Documents and Software Aspects of ProductsThis applies directly as written, and as described in INTENT from Understanding WCAG 2.0  (above).For non-web electronic documents without interactivity beyond hyperlinks - (no scripting or programming) - this SC would be automatically met. Note: The WCAG 2.0 definition of "input error" says that it is "information provided by the user that is not accepted" by 14:52:59 only 3.3.2 and 3.3.3 have the issue -- 14:53:02 +David_MacDonald 14:53:02 [sorry, paragraphs don't come through in IRC] 14:53:15 s/2.3.2 has the issue,// 14:53:23 To make it easier: https://sites.google.com/site/wcag2ict/home/2-operable/24-provide-ways-to-help-users-navigate-find-content-and-determine-where-they-are/242-page-titled && https://sites.google.com/site/wcag2ict/home/2-operable/24-provide-ways-to-help-users-navigate-find-content-and-determine-where-they-are/242-page-titled 14:54:22 RESOLUTION: Remove paragraph about non-web documents automatically complying from 3.3.2 and 3.3.3 14:54:49 RESOLUTION: send 1.3.2, 1.4.2, 1.4.3, 2.4.2, 2.4.3, 3.3.2, and 3.3.3 to WCAG for approval 14:57:12 Draft page now updated as well. Discussion of capturing resolution. Historical proposals still available. 14:57:22 q+ 14:57:29 q- 14:57:29 ack korn 14:57:32 q- 14:57:45 ack l 14:58:08 q+ 14:58:30 Mike_ has joined #wcag2ict 14:59:47 Discussion of clean-up of 3.3.1 and 3.3.3 15:00:21 +??P1 15:00:42 zakim, ??P1 is Mike_Pluke 15:00:42 +Mike_Pluke; got it 15:01:44 RESOLUTION: Remove note about the definition of input error from 3.3.3 and add 3.3.3 to the action item about proposing an edit to 3.3.1 intent 15:03:47 Discussion of other things we need to do before publishing 15:05:28 -Mike_Pluke 15:05:45 General intent or introductory section will be to reflect the context from the TF work statement, and to provide a succinct overview of the doc, and to reinforce the context of this document as differentiated from context of WCAG 2.0 and other supporting WCAG 2.0 docs. 15:06:02 zakim, who is on the queue? 15:06:02 I see korn on the speaker queue 15:06:08 q- 15:06:24 Discussion of needing a "content" paragraph to refer back to in intro from items where we'd said we'd be referring back up to that paragraph. 15:07:49 Michael and Shadi will be pulling together the other parts of the draft to prepare for publication. 15:08:16 https://sites.google.com/site/wcag2ict/quick-view 15:10:01 Discussion of existing language for the items that are pointing to the intended statement of content in the intro. 15:10:03 q+ 15:10:22 ack judy 15:11:44 q+ 15:11:59 No objections to leaving those statements in the items that point to an intended definition of content that will be in the intro once consensed, even if that isn't stable yet. 15:12:02 ack korn 15:12:16 Discussion of order change wrt discussion of software. 15:12:35 q+ 15:13:09 I can hear you 15:13:17 ack loic 15:13:18 Ok. 15:13:39 First. I think that there is no general agreement on "software user interface". 15:13:58 +1 for Andi 15:14:01 At least Gregg thinks that "software aspects of products" is better (I don't). 15:14:38 So we should first agree on what terms to use before agreeing on replacing 15:14:54 Ok, What's the deadline? 15:15:25 monday 15:16:13 q+ 15:17:11 To Gregg: We could also use "software that provides a user interface". This is what we did in M 376. 15:18:27 (I'm trying to reconnect to see I you can hear me) 15:18:33 -Loic_Martinez_Normand 15:18:51 +??P2 15:18:53 Software user interface language should be consistent... But guidelines apply to web content; most people think of SW user interface controls, they don't think of the content. Software aspects of products may give a clearer scope. But some SW doesn't have a UI at all, or instance middleware. So, SW UI. Further discussion.... 15:19:04 zakimm, ??P2 is Loic_Martinez_Normand 15:19:21 zakim, ??P2 is Loic_Martinez_Normand 15:19:21 +Loic_Martinez_Normand; got it 15:19:43 q+ 15:19:58 ack korn 15:21:34 Would be helpful to pull together a page showing current inconsistencies in how we're using the terms, even where we may not be sure of final wording for all contexts. 15:21:50 ack Loic 15:22:01 Can you hear me? 15:22:07 Ok. I take the action. 15:22:55 action: Loic to create a page that collects all of the guidance that uses some variation of the "software" term 15:22:55 Sorry, couldn't find user - Loic 15:24:21 Discussing examples of software-related terminology that we're using differently in different places. 15:24:28 -Mike_Pluke.a 15:24:44 +1 15:25:04 General happiness at Andi picking consistent terminology. Then we'll review it. 15:25:25 +1 15:25:48 And "document" should be "electronic document"? Multiple "yes" from around the room. 15:27:30 the editor's draft doesn't have the date as part of the URL: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/ 15:28:16 q+ 15:28:43 And our TF proposed draft, needs to link to the current WCAG WG Editor's Draft. Discussion of evergreen linking. Needs confirmation w/ Michael C. Gregg will ask linkage and production questions, cc'd. 15:29:02 -Al_Hoffman 15:29:24 ack bb 15:29:27 zakim, next item 15:29:28 agendum 4. "Discuss strategies for blocking issues - "user interaction context", 2.4.1 and 3.2.3 survey comments, remaining SC 15:29:30 ... https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/JUL062012/results" taken up [from Andi] 15:29:56 BYe 15:29:58 Lots to get through on Tuesday to prepare for publishing. 15:30:00 -David_MacDonald 15:30:01 -Bruce_Bailey 15:30:02 -Andi_Snow_Weaver 15:30:03 -Janina_Sajka 15:30:04 -Pierce_Crowell 15:30:06 -[Oracle] 15:30:07 -Kiran_Keja 15:30:08 rrsagent, make minutes 15:30:08 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/13-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi 15:30:09 -Loic_Martinez_Normand 15:30:09 janina has left #wcag2ict 15:30:09 korn has left #wcag2ict 15:30:10 -[Microsoft] 15:31:00 -Judy 15:36:00 disconnecting the lone participant, Gregg_Vanderheiden, in WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM 15:36:03 WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM has ended 15:36:03 Attendees were David_MacDonald, Judy, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Alex_Li, Kiran_Keja, Bruce_Bailey, Loic_Martinez_Normand, Mike_Pluke, Al_Hoffman, Peter_Korn, Janina_Sajka, 15:36:03 ... Gregg_Vanderheiden, Pierce_Crowell 17:54:05 greggvanderheiden has joined #wcag2ict 18:12:20 Judy has joined #wcag2ict 20:22:41 Andi has joined #wcag2ict 20:26:37 rrsagent, make minutes 20:26:37 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/13-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi 20:26:52 zakim, bye 20:26:52 Zakim has left #wcag2ict 20:29:24 s/Loïc_Martinez_Normand/Loic_Martinez_Normand/ 20:30:03 rrsagent, make minutes 20:30:03 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/13-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi 20:32:44 s/Andi - I volunteer for both... Can I have those AIs in this tracker?// 20:33:31 rrsagent, make minutes 20:33:31 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/13-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi