IRC log of wcag2ict on 2012-07-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:48:54 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #wcag2ict
13:48:54 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/07/13-wcag2ict-irc
13:48:56 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
13:48:56 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #wcag2ict
13:48:58 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 2428
13:48:58 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes
13:48:59 [trackbot]
Meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
13:48:59 [trackbot]
Date: 13 July 2012
13:49:28 [Andi]
agenda+ Action items https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG2ICT-TF/track/actions/open
13:49:58 [Andi]
agenda+ Summary of WCAG 2.0 decision on SC we sent for their review, starting with 1.2.2 and 1.2.4 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wcag2ict-tf/2012Jul/0031.html
13:50:15 [Andi]
agenda+ Work items to be completed for publication of first public working draft
13:50:58 [Andi]
agenda+ Discuss strategies for blocking issues - "user interaction context", 2.4.1 and 3.2.3 survey comments, remaining SC https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/JUL062012/results
13:56:00 [David]
David has joined #wcag2ict
13:56:39 [Zakim]
WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM has now started
13:56:46 [Zakim]
+David_MacDonald
13:57:40 [Zakim]
+Judy
13:59:01 [Zakim]
+Andi_Snow_Weaver
13:59:53 [Andi]
chair: Andi_Snow-Weaver
14:00:28 [Loic]
Loic has joined #wcag2ict
14:00:56 [Mike]
Mike has joined #wcag2ict
14:01:08 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
14:01:10 [korn]
korn has joined #wcag2ict
14:01:15 [Zakim]
+??P6
14:01:31 [Andi]
zakim, Microsoft has Alex_Li
14:01:31 [Zakim]
+Alex_Li; got it
14:01:34 [Zakim]
+Kiran_Keja
14:01:51 [Zakim]
+Bruce_Bailey
14:02:09 [Andi]
zakim, ??P6 is Loic_Martinez_Normand
14:02:09 [Zakim]
+Loic_Martinez_Normand; got it
14:02:13 [BBailey]
BBailey has joined #wcag2ict
14:02:36 [Zakim]
+??P9
14:02:40 [alex]
alex has joined #wcag2ict
14:02:50 [Andi]
zakim, ??P9 is Mike_Pluke
14:02:50 [Zakim]
+Mike_Pluke; got it
14:02:59 [Zakim]
-Judy
14:03:21 [Zakim]
+Al_Hoffman
14:03:34 [Zakim]
+Judy
14:04:19 [Zakim]
+[Oracle]
14:04:20 [korn]
Zakim, Oracle has Peter_Korn
14:04:20 [Zakim]
+Peter_Korn; got it
14:04:24 [janina]
janina has joined #wcag2ict
14:04:27 [Andi]
scribe: Andi
14:04:38 [Andi]
zakim, next item
14:04:38 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Action items https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG2ICT-TF/track/actions/open" taken up [from Andi]
14:04:38 [Kiran]
Kiran has joined #wcag2ict
14:04:52 [Zakim]
+??P12
14:05:02 [janina]
zakim, ??P12 is Janina_Sajka
14:05:02 [Zakim]
+Janina_Sajka; got it
14:05:23 [Andi]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG2ICT-TF/track/actions/18
14:06:36 [greggvanderheiden]
greggvanderheiden has joined #wcag2ict
14:06:52 [Andi]
leave action 18 open but will probably be resolved as part of the UI Context work
14:06:54 [Zakim]
+??P13
14:07:09 [Andi]
zakim, ??P13 is Gregg_Vanderheiden
14:07:09 [Zakim]
+Gregg_Vanderheiden; got it
14:09:08 [Zakim]
+Pierce_Crowell
14:09:37 [Andi]
action: Judy to draft Introduction section
14:09:37 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-31 - Draft Introduction section [on Judy Brewer - due 2012-07-20].
14:09:43 [Pierce]
Pierce has joined #wcag2ict
14:10:32 [Andi]
action: Judy to finish drafting Frontmatter
14:10:32 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-32 - Finish drafting Frontmatter [on Judy Brewer - due 2012-07-20].
14:10:33 [Pierce]
Pierce has joined #wcag2ict
14:10:45 [Zakim]
-Judy
14:11:12 [Andi]
leave actions 22 and 25 open to be resolved with action 24
14:11:22 [Zakim]
+Judy
14:11:22 [Andi]
zakim, next item
14:11:24 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Summary of WCAG 2.0 decision on SC we sent for their review, starting with 1.2.2 and 1.2.4 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wcag2ict-tf/2012Jul/0031.html"
14:11:24 [Zakim]
... taken up [from Andi]
14:11:35 [Kiran]
q+
14:12:25 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft]
14:12:25 [David]
scribe: David
14:12:27 [Kiran]
q-
14:12:47 [Andi]
https://sites.google.com/site/wcag2ict/home/1-perceivable/12-provide-alternatives-for-time-based-media/122-captions-prerecorded
14:13:00 [David]
Topic: 1.2.2 and 1.2.2
14:13:23 [David]
s/1.2.2/1.2.4
14:13:40 [Judy]
Judy has joined #wcag2ict
14:13:45 [Judy]
scribe: Judy
14:14:26 [korn]
q+
14:14:46 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
14:15:14 [korn]
Zakim, Microsoft has Alex_Li
14:15:14 [Zakim]
+Alex_Li; got it
14:16:59 [Judy]
RESOLUTION: Accept WCAG 2.0 proposal on 1.2.2 and 1.2.4 to remove the note about players [& fix closing quote]
14:17:41 [Andi]
https://sites.google.com/site/wcag2ict/home/1-perceivable/14-make-it-easier-for-users-to-see-and-hear-content---including-separating-foreground-from-background/144-resize-text
14:18:04 [korn]
This success criterion applies directly as written and as described in intent from Understanding WCAG 2.0.
14:18:04 [korn]
Electronic content and electronic documents that have software players, viewers or editors with a 200 percent zoom feature would automatically meet this SC unless the content or document will not work with zoom.
14:18:04 [korn]
The INTENT refers to the ability to allow users to enlarge the text on screen at least up to 200 % without needing to use assistive technologies. This means that either the application itself, or one of the platforms under it, provides some means for enlarging the text 200% (zoom or otherwise) without loss of content or functionality. If a platform capability is relied upon, the application supports the platform capability.
14:18:32 [Andi]
WCAG asked us to remove this sentence: If a platform capability is relied upon, the application supports the platform capability.
14:18:41 [korn]
q+
14:19:12 [BBailey]
q+
14:19:26 [Judy]
Discussion about what was the WG concern regarding platform capability
14:19:43 [alex]
q+
14:19:43 [Pierce]
Pierce has joined #wcag2ict
14:19:51 [Andi]
ack korn
14:20:20 [Andi]
q+ Gregg_Vanderheiden
14:20:20 [Pierce]
+q
14:20:26 [Andi]
ack bbbailey
14:20:29 [Mike]
q+
14:20:41 [Andi]
ack bbailey
14:20:59 [Judy]
Was is circuitous, or non-essential? Possibly reword as a note? Seems that it just needed clarification of the wording.
14:21:15 [Andi]
ack alex
14:21:55 [Andi]
http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-wai-wcag-minutes.html#item03
14:22:11 [Andi]
ack gregg
14:22:34 [korn]
q+
14:22:37 [BBailey]
q+ to say that "the application supports the platform capability" is a statement, not a *requirement"
14:22:53 [Andi]
If a platform capability is provided, the application supports the platform capability.
14:22:56 [Andi]
ack pierce
14:23:03 [Andi]
ack mike
14:23:06 [Kiran]
q+
14:23:18 [Loic]
q+
14:23:22 [Andi]
ack korn
14:23:47 [Judy]
Checking WG survey responses. Seems that it's an essential concept that is not addressed in the paragraph clearly or sufficiently.
14:23:54 [Andi]
ack bbail
14:23:54 [Zakim]
BBailey, you wanted to say that "the application supports the platform capability" is a statement, not a *requirement"
14:24:11 [Andi]
ack kiran
14:24:44 [korn]
q+
14:25:03 [greggvanderheiden]
q+
14:25:12 [korn]
q-
14:25:50 [Andi]
This means that the application provides some means for enlarging the text 200% (zoom or otherwise) without loss of content or functionality or that the application supports the platform features that meets this requirement.
14:25:55 [Andi]
ack loic
14:26:08 [Judy]
If one solely relies on the platform, it foregoes the possibility that a developer would go beyond the platform support.
14:26:09 [Andi]
ack gregg
14:26:11 [Andi]
q+
14:27:39 [korn]
q+
14:27:56 [Judy]
Discussion of other interpretations. WG captured the following, though: this seems insufficiently clear, and the TF is invited to re-word and re-submit. That was the conclusion from WG discussion.
14:28:51 [Judy]
We talked about relying on zoom -- when you rely on that, you need not to defeat that. You need to _work with_ the zoom feature.
14:28:58 [Andi]
This means that the application provides some means for enlarging the text 200% (zoom or otherwise) without loss of content or functionality or that the application works with the platform features that meets this requirement.
14:29:26 [Judy]
But it needs not to be worded with "support" since that might confuse people wrt to accessibility support.
14:30:34 [Judy]
Perhaps re-word the sentence before? General comments of, 'that works'...
14:32:35 [Judy]
RESOLUTION: Accept 1.4.4 as amended (New Proposal from TF meeting 13July12)
14:33:12 [Andi]
https://sites.google.com/site/wcag2ict/home/3-understandable/33-help-users-avoid-and-correct-mistakes/331-error-identification
14:33:49 [korn]
q+
14:33:56 [Loic]
q+
14:34:02 [Andi]
ack andi
14:34:27 [Pierce_]
Pierce_ has joined #wcag2ict
14:34:32 [korn]
q-
14:34:32 [Andi]
ack korn
14:35:00 [Judy]
Discussion on error identification.
14:35:47 [Andi]
ack loic
14:35:49 [Judy]
Perhaps just position as an explanatory note. Some people may not think about how input errors are processed, but not really part of the intent.
14:36:51 [korn]
+1
14:37:04 [Judy]
Shall we send the WG a note to modify the intent? They approved this, with the exception of those paragraphs.
14:37:36 [Judy]
Andi takes action to draft the modification proposal.
14:37:42 [Andi]
action: Andi to draft proposal to modify WCAG intent for 3.3.1 to replace note about definition of input error
14:37:42 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-33 - Draft proposal to modify WCAG intent for 3.3.1 to replace note about definition of input error [on Andi Snow-Weaver - due 2012-07-20].
14:38:34 [Judy]
RESOLUTION: Accept WCAG proposal to remove last two paragraphs of 3.3.1
14:39:10 [Judy]
Discussion of Parsing; the WG didn't accept our wording, and asked us to try again.
14:39:12 [korn]
Andi - I volunteer for both... Can I have those AIs in this tracker?
14:39:28 [Judy]
Reminder of pending actions assigned at the WG meeting. Re-record those here.
14:39:46 [Andi]
action: Peter to draft new proposal for 2.4.6 taking into consideration the WCAG survey comments
14:39:46 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-34 - Draft new proposal for 2.4.6 taking into consideration the WCAG survey comments [on Peter Korn - due 2012-07-20].
14:40:16 [Andi]
action: Peter to work with Loretta, James, Michael, and Bruce to draft new proposal on 4.1.1
14:40:17 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-35 - Work with Loretta, James, Michael, and Bruce to draft new proposal on 4.1.1 [on Peter Korn - due 2012-07-20].
14:41:50 [Judy]
Checking on which items to add to the WCAG WG survey... yes, we're sending them item 1.3.1.
14:42:01 [Andi]
zakim, next item
14:42:01 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Work items to be completed for publication of first public working draft" taken up [from Andi]
14:42:10 [Judy]
Maybe also our 3.1.1 note.
14:43:02 [greggvanderheiden]
q+
14:43:44 [Andi]
ack gregg
14:44:09 [Andi]
1.3.2 Meaningful sequence https://sites.google.com/site/wcag2ict/home/3-understandable/33-help-users-avoid-and-correct-mistakes/331-error-identification
14:44:09 [Pierce_]
l
14:44:27 [korn]
+1
14:44:30 [Loic]
+1
14:44:47 [Andi]
https://sites.google.com/site/wcag2ict/project-plan
14:44:50 [Judy]
Discussion of what we need to get done before publishing our first public WD. Probably won't yet have consensus on user interface @@. Other pieces, perhaps to be sent up with simpler language.
14:44:50 [Pierce_]
+1
14:46:11 [korn]
q+
14:46:32 [Judy]
Considering 1.3.2, 1.4.2, 1.4.3... these were consensed without that term defined, but since consensus on the term was pending, proposing sending these anyway.
14:47:23 [Andi]
ack korn
14:47:23 [korn]
q-
14:48:13 [Andi]
also 2.4.2, 2.4.3, 3.3.2, 3.3.3
14:50:31 [korn]
q+
14:50:38 [alex]
q+
14:50:54 [Judy]
One sentence was a concern, regarding non-web context that doesn't have activity behind it. Specific concern regarding relation to a particular success criteria... re-examine before sending up? Wording around "interactive context" may need attention.
14:52:06 [Judy]
2.4.2 & 2.4.3 may be OK on this; 2.3.2 has the issue, 1.3.2 doesn't have it... nor 1.4.2, nor 1.4.3
14:52:29 [Zakim]
-David_MacDonald
14:52:50 [korn]
E.g. for 3.3.3, remove the 2nd paragraph from:
14:52:50 [korn]
Additional guidance when applying to Electronic Documents and Software Aspects of ProductsThis applies directly as written, and as described in INTENT from Understanding WCAG 2.0  (above).For non-web electronic documents without interactivity beyond hyperlinks - (no scripting or programming) - this SC would be automatically met. Note: The WCAG 2.0 definition of "input error" says that it is "information provided by the user that is not accepted" by
14:52:59 [Judy]
only 3.3.2 and 3.3.3 have the issue --
14:53:02 [Zakim]
+David_MacDonald
14:53:02 [korn]
[sorry, paragraphs don't come through in IRC]
14:53:15 [Judy]
s/2.3.2 has the issue,//
14:53:23 [korn]
To make it easier: https://sites.google.com/site/wcag2ict/home/2-operable/24-provide-ways-to-help-users-navigate-find-content-and-determine-where-they-are/242-page-titled">https://sites.google.com/site/wcag2ict/home/2-operable/24-provide-ways-to-help-users-navigate-find-content-and-determine-where-they-are/242-page-titled && https://sites.google.com/site/wcag2ict/home/2-operable/24-provide-ways-to-help-users-navigate-find-content-and-determine-where-they-are/242-page-titled
14:54:22 [Judy]
RESOLUTION: Remove paragraph about non-web documents automatically complying from 3.3.2 and 3.3.3
14:54:49 [Judy]
RESOLUTION: send 1.3.2, 1.4.2, 1.4.3, 2.4.2, 2.4.3, 3.3.2, and 3.3.3 to WCAG for approval
14:57:12 [Judy]
Draft page now updated as well. Discussion of capturing resolution. Historical proposals still available.
14:57:22 [Loic]
q+
14:57:29 [korn]
q-
14:57:29 [Andi]
ack korn
14:57:32 [alex]
q-
14:57:45 [greggvanderheiden]
ack l
14:58:08 [korn]
q+
14:58:30 [Mike_]
Mike_ has joined #wcag2ict
14:59:47 [Judy]
Discussion of clean-up of 3.3.1 and 3.3.3
15:00:21 [Zakim]
+??P1
15:00:42 [Andi]
zakim, ??P1 is Mike_Pluke
15:00:42 [Zakim]
+Mike_Pluke; got it
15:01:44 [Judy]
RESOLUTION: Remove note about the definition of input error from 3.3.3 and add 3.3.3 to the action item about proposing an edit to 3.3.1 intent
15:03:47 [Judy]
Discussion of other things we need to do before publishing
15:05:28 [Zakim]
-Mike_Pluke
15:05:45 [Judy]
General intent or introductory section will be to reflect the context from the TF work statement, and to provide a succinct overview of the doc, and to reinforce the context of this document as differentiated from context of WCAG 2.0 and other supporting WCAG 2.0 docs.
15:06:02 [Andi]
zakim, who is on the queue?
15:06:02 [Zakim]
I see korn on the speaker queue
15:06:08 [korn]
q-
15:06:24 [Judy]
Discussion of needing a "content" paragraph to refer back to in intro from items where we'd said we'd be referring back up to that paragraph.
15:07:49 [Judy]
Michael and Shadi will be pulling together the other parts of the draft to prepare for publication.
15:08:16 [Andi]
https://sites.google.com/site/wcag2ict/quick-view
15:10:01 [Judy]
Discussion of existing language for the items that are pointing to the intended statement of content in the intro.
15:10:03 [Judy]
q+
15:10:22 [Andi]
ack judy
15:11:44 [korn]
q+
15:11:59 [Judy]
No objections to leaving those statements in the items that point to an intended definition of content that will be in the intro once consensed, even if that isn't stable yet.
15:12:02 [Andi]
ack korn
15:12:16 [Judy]
Discussion of order change wrt discussion of software.
15:12:35 [Loic]
q+
15:13:09 [Loic]
I can hear you
15:13:17 [Andi]
ack loic
15:13:18 [Loic]
Ok.
15:13:39 [Loic]
First. I think that there is no general agreement on "software user interface".
15:13:58 [korn]
+1 for Andi
15:14:01 [Loic]
At least Gregg thinks that "software aspects of products" is better (I don't).
15:14:38 [Loic]
So we should first agree on what terms to use before agreeing on replacing
15:14:54 [Loic]
Ok, What's the deadline?
15:15:25 [alex]
monday
15:16:13 [korn]
q+
15:17:11 [Loic]
To Gregg: We could also use "software that provides a user interface". This is what we did in M 376.
15:18:27 [Loic]
(I'm trying to reconnect to see I you can hear me)
15:18:33 [Zakim]
-Loic_Martinez_Normand
15:18:51 [Zakim]
+??P2
15:18:53 [Judy]
Software user interface language should be consistent... But guidelines apply to web content; most people think of SW user interface controls, they don't think of the content. Software aspects of products may give a clearer scope. But some SW doesn't have a UI at all, or instance middleware. So, SW UI. Further discussion....
15:19:04 [Andi]
zakimm, ??P2 is Loic_Martinez_Normand
15:19:21 [Judy]
zakim, ??P2 is Loic_Martinez_Normand
15:19:21 [Zakim]
+Loic_Martinez_Normand; got it
15:19:43 [Loic]
q+
15:19:58 [Andi]
ack korn
15:21:34 [Judy]
Would be helpful to pull together a page showing current inconsistencies in how we're using the terms, even where we may not be sure of final wording for all contexts.
15:21:50 [Andi]
ack Loic
15:22:01 [Loic]
Can you hear me?
15:22:07 [Loic]
Ok. I take the action.
15:22:55 [Andi]
action: Loic to create a page that collects all of the guidance that uses some variation of the "software" term
15:22:55 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Loic
15:24:21 [Judy]
Discussing examples of software-related terminology that we're using differently in different places.
15:24:28 [Zakim]
-Mike_Pluke.a
15:24:44 [korn]
+1
15:25:04 [Judy]
General happiness at Andi picking consistent terminology. Then we'll review it.
15:25:25 [korn]
+1
15:25:48 [Judy]
And "document" should be "electronic document"? Multiple "yes" from around the room.
15:27:30 [Andi]
the editor's draft doesn't have the date as part of the URL: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/
15:28:16 [BBailey]
q+
15:28:43 [Judy]
And our TF proposed draft, needs to link to the current WCAG WG Editor's Draft. Discussion of evergreen linking. Needs confirmation w/ Michael C. Gregg will ask linkage and production questions, cc'd.
15:29:02 [Zakim]
-Al_Hoffman
15:29:24 [Andi]
ack bb
15:29:27 [Andi]
zakim, next item
15:29:28 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Discuss strategies for blocking issues - "user interaction context", 2.4.1 and 3.2.3 survey comments, remaining SC
15:29:30 [Zakim]
... https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/JUL062012/results" taken up [from Andi]
15:29:56 [Loic]
BYe
15:29:58 [Judy]
Lots to get through on Tuesday to prepare for publishing.
15:30:00 [Zakim]
-David_MacDonald
15:30:01 [Zakim]
-Bruce_Bailey
15:30:02 [Zakim]
-Andi_Snow_Weaver
15:30:03 [Zakim]
-Janina_Sajka
15:30:04 [Zakim]
-Pierce_Crowell
15:30:06 [Zakim]
-[Oracle]
15:30:07 [Zakim]
-Kiran_Keja
15:30:08 [Andi]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:30:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/13-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
15:30:09 [Zakim]
-Loic_Martinez_Normand
15:30:09 [janina]
janina has left #wcag2ict
15:30:09 [korn]
korn has left #wcag2ict
15:30:10 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft]
15:31:00 [Zakim]
-Judy
15:36:00 [Zakim]
disconnecting the lone participant, Gregg_Vanderheiden, in WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM
15:36:03 [Zakim]
WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM has ended
15:36:03 [Zakim]
Attendees were David_MacDonald, Judy, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Alex_Li, Kiran_Keja, Bruce_Bailey, Loic_Martinez_Normand, Mike_Pluke, Al_Hoffman, Peter_Korn, Janina_Sajka,
15:36:03 [Zakim]
... Gregg_Vanderheiden, Pierce_Crowell
17:54:05 [greggvanderheiden]
greggvanderheiden has joined #wcag2ict
18:12:20 [Judy]
Judy has joined #wcag2ict
20:22:41 [Andi]
Andi has joined #wcag2ict
20:26:37 [Andi]
rrsagent, make minutes
20:26:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/13-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
20:26:52 [Andi]
zakim, bye
20:26:52 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #wcag2ict
20:29:24 [Andi]
s/Loïc_Martinez_Normand/Loic_Martinez_Normand/
20:30:03 [Andi]
rrsagent, make minutes
20:30:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/13-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
20:32:44 [Andi]
s/Andi - I volunteer for both... Can I have those AIs in this tracker?//
20:33:31 [Andi]
rrsagent, make minutes
20:33:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/13-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi