IRC log of wai-wcag on 2012-07-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

19:58:28 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
19:58:28 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-wai-wcag-irc
19:58:30 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs public
19:58:30 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #wai-wcag
19:58:32 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG
19:58:32 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see WAI_WCAG()4:00PM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
19:58:33 [trackbot]: Meeting: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
19:58:33 [trackbot]: Date: 05 July 2012
19:58:55 [Zakim]: WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has now started
19:59:02 [Zakim]: +Kathy
19:59:31 [robin]: robin has joined #wai-wcag
19:59:37 [Zakim]: +[Oracle]
19:59:43 [korn]: Hi Zakim, Oracle is Peter_Korn
19:59:53 [korn]: Zakim, Oracle is Peter_Korn
19:59:53 [Zakim]: +Peter_Korn; got it
20:00:14 [Zakim]: +Robin_Tuttle
20:00:20 [Zakim]: +Cooper
20:00:27 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
20:00:44 [MichaelC]: zakim, Microsoft is Alex_Li
20:00:44 [Zakim]: +Alex_Li; got it
20:00:54 [Zakim]: +??P5
20:01:13 [MichaelC]: zakim, ??P5 is Gregg_Vanderheiden
20:01:13 [Zakim]: +Gregg_Vanderheiden; got it
20:01:15 [Zakim]: +Bruce_Bailey
20:01:36 [Zakim]: + +1.703.227.aaaa
20:01:54 [MichaelC]: zakim, aaaa is Katie_Haritos-Shea
20:01:54 [Zakim]: +Katie_Haritos-Shea; got it
20:02:08 [Loretta]: Loretta has joined #WAI-WCAG
20:02:23 [Ryladog]: Ryladog has joined #wai-wcag
20:02:41 [Zakim]: +Loretta_Guarino_Reid
20:03:14 [Zakim]: +James_Nurthen
20:05:37 [MichaelC]: scribe: Kathy
20:05:42 [greggvanderheiden]: greggvanderheiden has joined #wai-wcag
20:05:57 [greggvanderheiden]: greggvanderheiden has left #wai-wcag
20:06:07 [greggvanderheiden]: greggvanderheiden has joined #wai-wcag
20:06:15 [Kathy]: http://tinyurl.com/7jtpema
20:06:57 [Zakim]: +Andi_Snow-Weaver
20:07:25 [Andi]: Andi has joined #wai-wcag
20:10:02 [adam]: adam has joined #wai-wcag
20:10:22 [Zakim]: +??P10
20:10:36 [adam]: zakim, ??P10 is adam_solomon
20:10:36 [Zakim]: +adam_solomon; got it
20:10:36 [Loretta]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/content-structure-separation-programmatic.html
20:11:24 [Zakim]: -Bruce_Bailey
20:11:38 [Loretta]: items that share a common characteristic are organized into tabular rows and columns;
20:11:47 [Zakim]: +Bruce_Bailey
20:12:57 [Andi]: zakim, who is on the phone
20:12:57 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'who is on the phone', Andi
20:13:05 [Andi]: zakim, who is on the phone?
20:13:05 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Kathy, Peter_Korn, Robin_Tuttle, Cooper, Alex_Li, Gregg_Vanderheiden, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, James_Nurthen, Andi_Snow-Weaver, adam_solomon,
20:13:09 [Zakim]: ... Bruce_Bailey (muted)
20:13:57 [Kathy]: <topic>: SC 3.1.2 in Understanding WCAG 2.0
20:14:20 [Kathy]: Topic: : SC 3.1.2 in Understanding WCAG 2.0
20:19:10 [Kathy]: Resolution: do not accept, language in their own glyphs cannot be blank to a screen reader.
20:19:40 [Kathy]: Topic: SC 1.3.1 in Understanding WCAG 2.0
20:22:01 [greggvanderheiden]: Sighted users perceive structure through various visual cues — headings are often in a larger, bold font separated from paragraphs by blank lines; list items are preceded by a bullet and perhaps indented; paragraphs are separated by a blank line; items that share a common characteristic are organized into tabular rows and columns with their headers; form fields may be positioned as groups that share text labels; a different background
20:22:02 [greggvanderheiden]: color may be used to indicate that several items are related to each other; words that have special status are indicated by changing the font family and /or bolding, italicizing, or underlining them and so on. Having this structure and these relationships programmatically determined or available in text ensures that information important for comprehension will be perceivable to all.
20:23:38 [greggvanderheiden]: There may also be cases where it may be a judgment call as to whether the relationships should be programmatically determined or be presented in text. However, when technologies support programmatic relationships, it is strongly encouraged that information and relationships be programmatically determined rather than described in text.
20:23:56 [korn]: q+
20:23:59 [Kathy]: Resolution: replace the second paragraph with There may also be cases where it may be a judgment call as to whether the relationships should be programmatically determined or be presented in text. However, when technologies support programmatic relationships, it is strongly encouraged that information and relationships be programmatically determined rather than described in text.
20:24:43 [korn]: q+
20:25:23 [korn]: q-
20:25:50 [Loretta]: Sighted users perceive structure through various visual cues — headings are often in a larger, bold font separated from paragraphs by blank lines; list items are preceded by a bullet and perhaps indented; paragraphs are separated by a blank line; items that share a common characteristic are organized into tabular rows and columns <ins>
20:26:11 [greggvanderheiden]: Sighted users perceive structure through various visual cues — headings are often in a larger, bold font separated from paragraphs by blank lines; list items are preceded by a bullet and perhaps indented; paragraphs are separated by a blank line; items that share a common characteristic are organized into tabular rows and columns WITH THEIR HEADERS; form fields may be positioned as groups that share text labels; a different background
20:26:11 [greggvanderheiden]: color may be used to indicate that several items are related to each other; words that have special status are indicated by changing the font family and /or bolding, italicizing, or underlining them and so on. HAVING THIS STRUCTURE AND THESE RELATIONSHIPS PROGRAMMATICALLY DETERMINED OR AVAILABLE IN TEXT ENSURES THAT INFORMATION IMPORTANT FOR COMPREHENSION WILL BE PERCEIVABLE TO ALL.
20:26:26 [alex]: alex has joined #wai-wcag
20:26:34 [greggvanderheiden]: Sighted users perceive structure through various visual cues — headings are often in a larger, bold font separated from paragraphs by blank lines; list items are preceded by a bullet and perhaps indented; paragraphs are separated by a blank line; items that share a common characteristic are organized into tabular rows and columns WITH THEIR HEADERS; form fields may be positioned as groups that share text labels; a different background
20:26:35 [greggvanderheiden]: color may be used to indicate that several items are related to each other; words that have special status are indicated by changing the font family and /or bolding, italicizing, or underlining them and so on. HAVING THIS STRUCTURE AND THESE RELATIONSHIPS PROGRAMMATICALLY DETERMINED OR AVAILABLE IN TEXT ENSURES THAT INFORMATION IMPORTANT FOR COMPREHENSION WILL BE PERCEIVABLE TO ALL.
20:27:16 [greggvanderheiden]: There may also be cases where it may be a judgment call as to whether the relationships should be programmatically determined or be presented in text. However, when technologies support programmatic relationships, it is strongly encouraged that information and relationships be programmatically determined rather than described in text.
20:28:41 [Loretta]: ack k
20:29:15 [Andi]: s/second/seventh/
20:29:34 [Andi]: s/Resolution:/RESOLUTION:/
20:29:51 [Andi]: rrsagent, make minutes
20:29:51 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-wai-wcag-minutes.html Andi
20:30:30 [Kathy]: RESOLUTION: 2nd paragraph gets replaced with “Sighted users perceive structure through various visual cues — headings are often in a larger, bold font separated from paragraphs by blank lines; list items are preceded by a bullet and perhaps indented; paragraphs are separated by a blank line; items that share a common characteristic are organized into tabular rows and columns with their headers; form fields may be positioned as groups that share text labe
20:30:40 [Andi]: s/seventh paragraph with There may/seventh paragraph with "There may/
20:31:36 [Andi]: s/share text labe/share text labels; a different background color may be used to indicate that several items are related to each other; words that have special status are indicated by changing the font family and /or bolding, italicizing, or underlining them and so on. HAVING THIS STRUCTURE AND THESE RELATIONSHIPS PROGRAMMATICALLY DETERMINED OR AVAILABLE IN TEXT ENSURES THAT INFORMATION
20:31:36 [Andi]: IMPORTANT FOR COMPREHENSION WILL BE PERCEIVABLE TO ALL./
20:31:59 [Andi]: rrsagent, make minutes
20:31:59 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-wai-wcag-minutes.html Andi
20:32:48 [Kathy]: Topic: 1.1.1 Non-text Content
20:33:36 [Andi]: s|groups that share text labe|groups that share text labels; a different background color may be used to indicate that several items are related to each other; words that have special status are indicated by changing the font family and /or bolding, italicizing, or underlining them and so on. HAVING THIS STRUCTURE AND THESE RELATIONSHIPS PROGRAMMATICALLY DETERMINED OR AVAILABLE IN TEXT ENSURES
20:33:36 [Andi]: THAT INFORMATION IMPORTANT FOR COMPREHENSION WILL BE PERCEIVABLE TO ALL.|
20:33:45 [Andi]: rrsagent, make minutes
20:33:45 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-wai-wcag-minutes.html Andi
20:34:43 [Andi]: s/AVAILABLE IN TEXT ENSURES/AVAILABLE IN TEXT ENSURES THAT INFORMATION IMPORTANT FOR COMPREHENSION WILL BE PERCEIVABLE TO ALL./
20:34:50 [Andi]: rrsagent, make minutes
20:34:50 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-wai-wcag-minutes.html Andi
20:34:52 [Kathy]: RESOLUTION: accept as proposed
20:35:53 [Andi]: s|s/share text labe/share text labels; a different background color may be used to indicate that several items are related to each other; words that have special status are indicated by changing the font family and /or bolding, italicizing, or underlining them and so on. HAVING THIS STRUCTURE AND THESE RELATIONSHIPS PROGRAMMATICALLY DETERMINED OR AVAILABLE IN TEXT ENSURES THAT INFORMATION
20:35:53 [Andi]: IMPORTANT FOR COMPREHENSION WILL BE PERCEIVABLE TO ALL. THAT INFORMATION||
20:36:00 [Andi]: rrsagent, make minutes
20:36:00 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-wai-wcag-minutes.html Andi
20:38:07 [Kathy]: RESOLUTION: accepted the following unanimous consent as approved 1.2.1, 1.2.3, 1.2.5, 1.3.3, 1.4.1, 1.4.5, 2.3.1, 2.4.4, 2.4.7
20:39:08 [Kathy]: Topic: 1.2.2 Captions (Prerecorded)
20:39:44 [korn]: q+
20:40:56 [Andi]: q+
20:41:19 [korn]: q-
20:42:29 [korn]: q+
20:42:47 [Loretta]: ack a
20:43:05 [greggvanderheiden]: q+
20:43:43 [Loretta]: ack k
20:43:46 [Loretta]: q+
20:44:38 [Zakim]: -Bruce_Bailey
20:45:07 [Loretta]: ack g
20:45:10 [Zakim]: +Bruce_Bailey
20:46:19 [korn]: q+
20:46:43 [Loretta]: ack l
20:47:04 [greggvanderheiden]: q+
20:47:46 [Loretta]: ack k
20:49:42 [Loretta]: ack g
20:50:08 [Ryladog]: q+
20:50:23 [Loretta]: q+
20:50:39 [korn]: "Note: a standalone player that is absent the presence of pre-recorded media is outside of the scope of this provision."
20:50:48 [robin]: apologies, i must drop off
20:50:57 [Zakim]: -Robin_Tuttle
20:52:13 [Loretta]: ack r
20:53:01 [Loretta]: ack b
20:54:46 [korn]: q+
20:55:07 [greggvanderheiden]: q+
20:55:11 [Loretta]: ack l
20:55:33 [Loretta]: ack k
20:55:34 [korn]: q-
20:56:03 [Loretta]: ack g
20:56:05 [Loretta]: q+
20:57:58 [Kathy]: RESOLUTION: approved with the following note removed. “Note: Requirements for ability of players or viewers to support captions for media being played or viewed is not within WCAG's scope and would have to be required in some other fashion than WCAG SC.”
20:58:24 [Zakim]: -adam_solomon
20:58:43 [Kathy]: Topic: 1.2.4 Captions (Live)
20:59:55 [Kathy]: RESOLUTION: approved with the following note removed. “Note: Requirements for ability of players or viewers to support captions for media being played or viewed is not within WCAG's scope and would have to be required in some other fashion than WCAG SC.”
21:00:20 [Kathy]: Topic: 1.4.4 Resize text
21:01:49 [korn]: q+
21:01:55 [Loretta]: ack l
21:02:07 [Loretta]: ack k
21:02:11 [greggvanderheiden]: q+
21:02:33 [Loretta]: ack g
21:05:50 [Loretta]: If an application replies upon a platform capability to meet this success criterion, then the application supports that platform capability.
21:07:29 [greggvanderheiden]: NOTE: If a platform capability is relied upon, the application implies that it supports the platform capability.
21:08:15 [Loretta]: If an application relies upon such a platform capability to meet this success criterion, then the application enables the user to access that platform capability.
21:08:17 [greggvanderheiden]: If a platform capability is relied upon, it means that the application supports the platform capability.
21:09:00 [korn]: q+
21:09:53 [Loretta]: ack k
21:13:16 [Kathy]: RESOLUTION: Accept without the sentence "If a platform capability is relied upon, the application supports the platform capability." Taskforce is invited to clarify the sentence or reword as they see fit.
21:14:00 [Kathy]: Topic: 2.1.1 Keyboard
21:19:22 [korn]: So the second paragraph would now read:
21:19:22 [korn]: Note: This does not imply that software must directly support OR PROVIDE a keyboard or "keyboard interface". UNDERLYING Platform software may provide device independent input services to applications that enable operation via a keyboard. Software that supports operation via such platform device independent services would be operable by a keyboard and would comply.
21:24:13 [Kathy]: RESOLUTION: Accepted with the following change: “Note: This does not imply that software must directly support or provide a keyboard or "keyboard interface". Underlying platform software may provide device independent input services to applications that enable operation via a keyboard. Software that supports operation via such platform device independent services would be operable by a keyboard and would comply.”
21:24:30 [Kathy]: Topic: 2.1.2 No Keyboard Trap
21:25:03 [Kathy]: RESOLUTION: accept as proposed
21:25:21 [korn]: +1
21:26:43 [Kathy]: Topic: 2.2.1 Timing Adjustable
21:27:28 [greggvanderheiden]: q+
21:27:32 [korn]: q+
21:27:39 [Loretta]: ack g
21:28:30 [MichaelC]: q+ to jump to my comments in the last question - which I shouldda before
21:29:11 [Loretta]: ack k
21:30:07 [Loretta]: ack m
21:30:07 [Zakim]: MichaelC, you wanted to jump to my comments in the last question - which I shouldda before
21:30:35 [greggvanderheiden]: q+
21:30:51 [Loretta]: ack g
21:31:20 [korn]: q+
21:32:03 [Loretta]: :-)
21:32:04 [korn]: q-
21:34:42 [greggvanderheiden]: q+
21:34:45 [Loretta]: ack b
21:34:56 [Loretta]: ack g
21:34:58 [MichaelC]: q+
21:35:02 [jnurthen]: q+
21:35:07 [Loretta]: q+
21:35:18 [korn]: q+
21:35:41 [Andi]: scribe: Andi
21:36:04 [Kathy]: thanks Andi
21:36:13 [Andi]: s/thanks Andi//
21:36:20 [Loretta]: ack m
21:39:37 [korn]: q-
21:39:39 [Loretta]: ack l
21:39:41 [jnurthen]: ack me
21:39:54 [Zakim]: -Kathy
21:40:38 [korn]: q+
21:40:50 [Loretta]: ack k
21:41:38 [Andi]: RESOLUTION: Accept 2.2.1 with last sentence removed ("Non-web Electronic Documents ... there are no time limits."). Task force is invited to re-word last sentence and re-submit.
21:42:13 [korn]: q+
21:42:19 [Loretta]: ack k
21:42:56 [Andi]: RESOLUTION: Accept 2.2.2 as amended by Michael's edit.
21:44:03 [korn]: q+
21:45:37 [Loretta]: ack k
21:49:47 [Zakim]: +Bruce_Bailey.a
21:49:51 [Zakim]: -Bruce_Bailey
21:50:50 [Andi]: RESOLUTION: Send 2.4.6 back to the task force based on comments related to the use of heading.
21:54:57 [Andi]: RESOLUTION: Accept 3.2.1 with last sentence removed. ]"For non-web electronic documents without interactivity beyond hyperlinks - (no scripting or programming) - this SC would be automatically met."] The task force may wish to come back with a proposal to modify WCAG 2.0 intent.
21:55:08 [Andi]: RESOLUTION: Accept 3.2.2 with last sentence removed. ]"For non-web electronic documents without interactivity beyond hyperlinks - (no scripting or programming) - this SC would be automatically met."] The task force may wish to come back with a proposal to modify WCAG 2.0 intent.
22:01:56 [korn]: Keep: This applies directly as written, and as described in INTENT from Understanding WCAG 2.0 (above).
22:02:02 [korn]: THrow away all after that.
22:02:58 [Andi]: RESOLUTION: Accept 3.3.1 with last two paragraphs removed. Task Force should consider proposing new text for Understanding WCAG instead of the note.
22:03:23 [Zakim]: -Katie_Haritos-Shea
22:04:38 [Andi]: RESOLUTION: Accept 3.3.4 with last sentence removed. ["For non-web electronic documents without interactivity beyond hyperlinks - (no scripting or programming) - this SC would be automatically met."] The task force may wish to come back with a proposal to modify WCAG 2.0 intent.
22:04:50 [Andi]: s/]"For/["For/
22:05:00 [Andi]: s/]"For/["For/
22:05:01 [korn]: q+
22:06:19 [Loretta]: q+
22:06:25 [Loretta]: ack k
22:06:26 [korn]: q-
22:06:43 [korn]: q+
22:06:46 [jnurthen]: q+
22:06:49 [Loretta]: ack l
22:07:13 [Loretta]: ack k
22:08:17 [Loretta]: q+
22:08:25 [jnurthen]: ack me
22:08:38 [Andi]: rrsagent, make minutes
22:08:38 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-wai-wcag-minutes.html Andi
22:08:40 [korn]: q+
22:09:09 [Loretta]: ack b
22:09:21 [Andi]: s|may wish to come back with a proposal to modify WCAG 2.0 intent.||
22:09:26 [Loretta]: ack l
22:09:30 [Loretta]: ack k
22:09:41 [Andi]: rrsagent, make minutes
22:09:41 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-wai-wcag-minutes.html Andi
22:10:26 [jnurthen]: q+
22:10:30 [jnurthen]: ack me
22:10:30 [Loretta]: ack j
22:10:49 [Andi]: topic: 4.1.1 Parsing
22:11:52 [Loretta]: q+
22:13:15 [korn]: q+
22:13:21 [Loretta]: ack l
22:13:23 [Loretta]: ack k
22:15:25 [Andi]: q+
22:16:09 [Andi]: q-
22:18:21 [Zakim]: -James_Nurthen
22:21:38 [Loretta]: ack b
22:22:35 [Loretta]: q+
22:22:42 [korn]: q+
22:23:06 [Loretta]: ack l
22:23:12 [Loretta]: ack k
22:24:32 [Loretta]: q+
22:25:54 [alex]: q+
22:26:19 [Loretta]: ack l
22:27:01 [Loretta]: q+
22:27:06 [Loretta]: ack a
22:28:34 [Loretta]: ack l
22:31:21 [Andi]: RESOLUTION: Not accept 4.1.1.
22:31:53 [Andi]: action: Peter to work with Bruce, Michael, Loretta, and James to draft new proposal for 4.1.1
22:31:53 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-175 - Work with Bruce, Michael, Loretta, and James to draft new proposal for 4.1.1 [on Peter Korn - due 2012-07-12].
22:33:21 [Andi]: topic: 4.1.2 Name, Role, Value
22:33:57 [Andi]: RESOLUTION: Accept 4.1.2 with last sentence removed. ["For non-web electronic documents without interactivity beyond hyperlinks - (no scripting or programming) - this SC would be automatically met.]
22:34:16 [Andi]: topic: General feedback for the WCAG2ICT Task Force
22:34:27 [Andi]: RESOLUTION: Send comments from the survey to the task force
22:35:20 [Zakim]: -Peter_Korn
22:35:22 [Zakim]: -Bruce_Bailey.a
22:35:23 [Zakim]: -Cooper
22:35:25 [Zakim]: -Loretta_Guarino_Reid
22:35:25 [Zakim]: -Andi_Snow-Weaver
22:36:19 [Zakim]: -Gregg_Vanderheiden
22:36:21 [Andi]: rrsagent, make minuts
22:36:21 [RRSAgent]: I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minuts', Andi. Try /msg RRSAgent help
22:36:27 [Andi]: rrsagent, make minutes
22:36:27 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-wai-wcag-minutes.html Andi
22:36:31 [Loretta]: Thanks, Andi, for stepping in on the scribing.
22:37:02 [Loretta]: bye
22:37:18 [Loretta]: yes
22:41:19 [Zakim]: disconnecting the lone participant, Alex_Li, in WAI_WCAG()4:00PM
22:41:21 [Zakim]: WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has ended
22:41:21 [Zakim]: Attendees were Kathy, Peter_Korn, Robin_Tuttle, Cooper, Alex_Li, Gregg_Vanderheiden, Bruce_Bailey, +1.703.227.aaaa, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, James_Nurthen,
22:41:21 [Zakim]: ... Andi_Snow-Weaver, adam_solomon
22:43:02 [MichaelC]: chair: Loretta_Guarino_Reid
22:43:25 [MichaelC]: agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2012JulSep/0002.html
22:43:30 [MichaelC]: regrets: Moe_Kraft
22:43:33 [MichaelC]: rrsagent, make minutes
22:43:33 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-wai-wcag-minutes.html MichaelC
22:43:59 [MichaelC]: s/: SC 3.1.2/SC 3.1.2/
22:44:09 [MichaelC]: s/Hi Zakim, Oracle is Peter_Korn//
22:45:24 [MichaelC]: s/<topic>: SC 3.1.2 in Understanding WCAG 2.0//
22:47:24 [MichaelC]: rrsagent, make minutes
22:47:25 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-wai-wcag-minutes.html MichaelC
22:48:08 [MichaelC]: zakim, bye
22:48:08 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #wai-wcag
22:48:10 [MichaelC]: rrsagent, bye
22:48:10 [RRSAgent]: I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-wai-wcag-actions.rdf :
22:48:10 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Peter to work with Bruce, Michael, Loretta, and James to draft new proposal for 4.1.1 [1]
22:48:10 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-wai-wcag-irc#T22-31-53