14:59:54 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
14:59:54 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-html-a11y-irc
14:59:56 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:59:56 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #html-a11y
14:59:58 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2119
14:59:58 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM scheduled to start 59 minutes ago
14:59:59 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:59:59 <trackbot> Date: 05 July 2012
15:00:18 <Zakim> -John_Foliot
15:00:19 <Zakim> +John_Foliot
15:00:21 <Zakim> +Cooper
15:00:26 <janina> zakim, call janina
15:00:42 <Zakim> ok, janina; the call is being made
15:00:43 <Zakim> +Janina
15:01:16 <MichaelC> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Jul/0006.html
15:02:18 <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Mike
15:02:18 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
15:02:19 <Zakim> +Mike
15:02:54 <Zakim> +Judy
15:03:22 <Judy> Judy has joined #html-a11y
15:04:59 <MikeSmith> agenda+	issue 194 (transcript) status update
15:05:00 <MikeSmith> agenda+	issue 201 (canvas) status update
15:05:01 <MikeSmith> agenda+	issue 204 (ARIA attributes and hidden) status update
15:05:01 <MikeSmith> agenda+	issue 206 (meta generator): resolution to support CP?
15:07:22 <MikeSmith> agenda+ bug 13357 schedule discussion for next week? (and invite Bob Lund)
15:07:41 <MikeSmith> agenda+	text subteam report
15:07:42 <MikeSmith> agenda+	ARIA mappings subteam report
15:07:43 <MikeSmith> agenda+	bug-triage subteam report
15:07:44 <MikeSmith> agenda+	Other Business
15:07:45 <MikeSmith> agenda+	Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
15:07:46 <MikeSmith> agenda+	Identify Scribe for the next TF teleconference http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
15:07:48 <Zakim> +??P6
15:07:56 <JF> scribe: JF
15:08:07 <JF> zakim, take up item 1
15:08:07 <Zakim> agendum 1. "issue 194 (transcript) status update" taken up [from MikeSmith]
15:08:11 <Stevef> Stevef has joined #html-a11y
15:08:35 <MikeSmith> scribe: MikeSmith 
15:08:52 <MikeSmith> JF: status is that we're at a point where we're in general agreement
15:09:03 <MikeSmith> ... there's an appetite for find a solution
15:09:15 <MikeSmith> ... comes down to a question of syntax
15:09:33 <MikeSmith> ... both schools of thoughts are that we would introduce a transcript attribute
15:09:46 <MikeSmith> ... Silvia proposes that it should take a URL
15:10:08 <MikeSmith> ... sort of looks and feels like a magic longdesc
15:10:11 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
15:10:30 <MikeSmith> JF: The proposal for Ted and Eric is that it would take a list of IDREFs
15:10:46 <MikeSmith> ... which would allow you to link to multiple transcripts
15:11:28 <paulc> paulc has joined #html-a11y
15:11:37 <MikeSmith> JF: I think at this point what needs to be communicated to he chairs is that there will be multiple change proposals
15:11:47 <MikeSmith> ... and we will need to have a WBS survey
15:11:49 <MikeSmith> q?
15:12:04 <paulc> I have very intermittent Internet access and may drop off at any point.
15:12:35 <MikeSmith> JF: I think we are going to need some more time, maybe around middle of July
15:12:38 <paulc> Both Silvia and Ted have said they will update their CPs by the end of this week.
15:12:46 <MikeSmith> janina: can you say more about the disagreement is?
15:13:00 <MikeSmith> JF: Apple feels the single URL solution is too limiting
15:13:53 <MikeSmith> JF: Either proposal satisfies our primary use case
15:14:19 <MikeSmith> janina: I wonder if we're worried about space-delimited sets being robust
15:14:26 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:14:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-html-a11y-minutes.html MikeSmith
15:14:48 <MikeSmith> chair: MikeSmith 
15:15:08 <MikeSmith> janina: what happens when things don't work right?
15:15:23 <MikeSmith> JF: I think you'd get a 404
15:15:59 <MikeSmith> JF: it's an authoring error
15:16:19 <MikeSmith> JF: what happens now if I reference an ID that's not actually in the page?
15:16:29 <MikeSmith> q?
15:16:42 <JF> scribe: JF
15:16:59 <JF> MS: sounds like a survey for Issue 194 is inevitable
15:17:36 <JF> so the TF should start thinking about looking at the emergent proposals to determine which the TF could/should endorse
15:17:42 <JF> zakim, who's nlisy
15:17:42 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who's nlisy', JF
15:17:50 <JF> zakim, who's noisy?
15:18:00 <Zakim> JF, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: John_Foliot (13%)
15:19:06 <janina> zakim, mute me
15:19:06 <Zakim> Janina should now be muted
15:19:18 <JF> ?me contiune?
15:19:37 <JF> zakim, take up next item
15:19:37 <Zakim> agendum 2. "issue 201 (canvas) status update" taken up [from MikeSmith]
15:19:46 <Stevef> q+
15:19:47 <JF> MS: is Rich here?
15:20:10 <JF> Steve F: posted some questions to the list about the CP
15:20:34 <JF> have some serious reservation around the light-weight object stuff
15:20:41 <richardschwerdtfe> richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-a11y
15:20:45 <JF> I've been asking about this, but have heard nothing to date
15:20:47 <richardschwerdtfe> lurking
15:21:06 <JF> MS: looking at the next steps from WG side
15:21:13 <JF> don't believe there is a deadline
15:21:18 <JF> not sure what to do next
15:21:30 <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-201
15:21:34 <paulc> >John asked questions about current CP. Awaiting feedback from Frank/Ted.
15:21:37 <janina> zaim, unmute me
15:21:50 <janina> zakim, unmute me
15:21:50 <Zakim> Janina should no longer be muted
15:21:51 <paulc> I believe we are waiting for answers to John's questions.
15:22:09 <paulc> s/John/Steve/
15:22:39 <JF> MS: when did you pose those questions?
15:22:40 <Stevef> email to html working group on canvas http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Jun/0180.html
15:22:52 <JF> SF: asked here
15:23:21 <JF> MS: the HTML WG call has been cancelled this week
15:23:29 <JF> should bring it up there
15:23:53 <JF> JS: perhaps Steve can re-post the question and note that there has been no response to date.
15:24:18 <JF> PC: will send a note to Ted/Frank and ask if there is any progress, but note that US holiday was Wednesday
15:24:46 <JF> SF: Did also pose these questions after the F2F, so they are not new.
15:25:07 <MikeSmith> q?
15:25:09 <JF> quite happy if someone else can explain this, but with no response at all there remains some concerns
15:25:19 <JF> ack steve
15:25:22 <Stevef> q-
15:25:23 <paulc> My Internet access is very bad so I am at risk of dropping off.  Sorry.
15:25:28 <JF> zakim, take up next item
15:25:28 <Zakim> agendum 3. "issue 204 (ARIA attributes and hidden) status update" taken up [from MikeSmith]
15:25:53 <JF> MS: who is driving this issue?
15:26:09 <JF> JS: believe we are waiting for Ted/Jonas response
15:26:18 <paulc> John F provided a revised CP on Tue Jun 26. Next step is to gather support for this within A11Y TF and with Ted/Jonas.
15:26:24 <JF> MS: Jonas is back from vacation now
15:26:33 <JF> Q+
15:28:20 <MikeSmith> ack JF 
15:28:30 <JF> JF: latest CP is about as far as we can go w.r.t. tab focus issue
15:28:41 <JF> next step would be to seek TF backing
15:28:55 <JF> JS: need to hear back from Ted/Jonas to see what they think
15:29:06 <MikeSmith> q?
15:29:07 <JF> MS: perhaps another note out to Ted/Jonas?
15:29:13 <JF> PC: sending of that note now
15:29:19 <JF> zakim, take up next item
15:29:19 <Zakim> agendum 4. "issue 206 (meta generator): resolution to support CP?" taken up [from MikeSmith]
15:29:35 <JF> s/sending of/ sending off/
15:29:56 <JF> MS: this is a new issue from the Chairs, based on what we were calling Issue 31c
15:30:23 <JF> deadline for (Counter) Proposals is later this month (24? 27?)
15:30:40 <JF> it would be good to see if we have TF support for this CP
15:30:47 <Judy> q+
15:31:00 <JF> MS: likely that there will be alternative CPs to try and address the same use case
15:31:10 <JF> but for now, the only CP is to drop this exception
15:31:14 <JF> ack judey
15:31:15 <MikeSmith> ack Judy
15:31:50 <JF> JB: it is specifically to drop the exception around whether or not there is alternative text, and not to drop the generator tag
15:31:59 <Stevef> q+
15:32:20 <JF> JS: Mike S are you suggesting that there may be other ways to avoid checking for missing alt
15:33:01 <janina> zakim, call janina
15:33:01 <Zakim> ok, janina; the call is being made
15:33:03 <Zakim> +Janina.a
15:33:07 <JF> MS: the issue is if the document is machine generated that requires alt text,but no human is involved and images are missing alt, then it shold be recognized as a machine generated page
15:33:20 <Judy> Link to the re-updated re-open request, on which we're requesting TF support, to be followed by a request for PFWG support, and based on which the topic was re-opened: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/Issue31cMetaGeneratorUpdated
15:33:23 <MikeSmith> ack Stevef 
15:33:29 <JF> believe that henri S believes this is a valid use-case
15:33:48 <Stevef> validator based on validator.nu provides means to filter out any errors not desired author http://validator.keegan.st/
15:33:56 <JF> SF: want to point out that a validator can be set to NOT check for anything
15:34:04 <Zakim> -Janina.a
15:34:17 <Zakim> -Janina
15:34:17 <JF> The question is what is required for validation
15:34:25 <Judy> q+
15:34:34 <Judy> zakim, who's here?
15:34:34 <Zakim> On the phone I see John_Foliot, Cooper, Mike, Judy, ??P6, [Microsoft]
15:34:35 <Zakim> On IRC I see richardschwerdtfe, paulc, Stevef, Judy, Zakim, RRSAgent, janina, JF, davidb, MichaelC, MikeSmith, trackbot, [tm]
15:34:36 <Zakim> +??P15
15:34:41 <MikeSmith> ack Judy 
15:34:44 <JF> MS: what we want to do on TF side is to consider if we want to take a Resolution to Support from the TF
15:34:54 <JF> JB: missed a part of what was being said
15:35:20 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
15:35:52 <JF> one thing discovered is that pages may be processed by multiple tools at multiple times. Very difficult to determine if a page is machine generated alone
15:36:12 <JF> not sure what may be coming forward
15:37:35 <Stevef> q+
15:37:42 <JF> MS: what Henri has argued in the past is that he does not want the Validator reporting errors if/when a tool is designed to generate pages that contain images (bulk photo uploads), that people who make those tools, and the validator generates errors
15:38:01 <JF> then the makers of those tools will respond by adding 'bogus alt content' to silence the validator
15:38:13 <JF> JB: this is not a new speculation
15:38:46 <JF> hope he provides evidence of that, else it sounds like a 2-layer speculation. Concerned that it will start a loop
15:39:03 <MikeSmith> ack Stevef 
15:39:22 <JF> MS: would like to get consensus from Henri, but unsure if he will write another CP
15:39:39 <JF> SF: Understand the concern, but this is why we have <figcaption>
15:40:42 <JF> Authors/machines can put 'some' some differentiating text, that is clearly identified as a caption, and not an ALT 
15:41:41 <JF> SF: these tools already are providing something so we prefer that they use the caption instead of a crummy alt text. never seen a tool that doesn't provide some text that could be used as the caption
15:42:27 <JF> MS: I need to discuss this further with Henri. Note that a document-wide switch is an anti-pattern.
15:42:40 <JF> JS: we also need some evidence. this seems to be based on speculation
15:42:56 <richardschwerdtfe> dropping off
15:43:00 <JF> JB: still concerned that a partial solution still creates most of the same problems we were concerned about
15:43:02 <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
15:43:11 <JF> Q+
15:43:34 <JF> MS: this has been about validator behavior from the start
15:43:35 <MikeSmith> http://validator.keegan.st/
15:43:45 <JF> one is to look at the link that Steve posted
15:44:02 <JF> if handled correctly, i believe this can be "good"
15:44:26 <Stevef> q+
15:44:33 <JF> this does not allow / hide any error messages initially, but it also allows the author to go in and filter error messages
15:44:55 <JF> gives control over which error messages they have to "hear"
15:45:20 <JF> however even if it suppresses the error messages, it does not claim "validation" if there are still errors
15:45:33 <JF> MS: believe this is a smarter way to handle it
15:46:24 <JF> JB: so the person doing the validation would hve to be pro-active - to consciously choose to suppress error messages
15:46:34 <JF> JS: it's a filtered view
15:46:45 <JF> JB: perhaps the results would need to have a disclaimer?
15:46:54 <JF> that it is not giving a conformance indication
15:47:45 <JF> MS: believe that this site is existing proof that this can be done. What we don't want is people shopping around for a validator that doesn't tell them they have errors
15:48:07 <JF> so we likely want to try and accommodate the need here.
15:48:11 <MikeSmith> q?
15:48:15 <MikeSmith> ack JF 
15:48:42 <Judy> q+
15:49:01 <MikeSmith> ack Stevef
15:49:21 <JF> JF: an error is an error. We should be worried about end-users, and not Validator tools
15:49:44 <JF> if a page does not meet user-needs (images with no alt text) then it is an error
15:50:00 <Zakim> -??P15
15:50:24 <JF> SF: the filtering issue allows to have a non-wordy report, but still not generate a "Valid" result
15:50:29 <Zakim> +??P15
15:50:45 <JF> allowing the author/tester to set preferences with filters is a good tool choice
15:51:59 <JF> JB: speculation - if there are an annoying number of validation errors, then tools will insert bogus values. What if, instead we speculate that tool vendors will inprove their tools
15:52:08 <JF> s/inprove/improve/
15:52:41 <JF> tools are emerging that when people take photos they can tag them at that time
15:53:07 <JF> perhaps the error messages will drive innovation and solutions that actually address the problem
15:53:17 <JF> MS: agreed, it keeps the problem visible
15:53:27 <JF> JB: solves the right problem
15:53:38 <MikeSmith> q?
15:53:41 <MikeSmith> ack Judy 
15:53:42 <JF> MS: think I can talk with henri and get metagenerator dropped
15:55:57 <JF> zakim, take up next item
15:55:57 <Zakim> agendum 5. "bug 13357 schedule discussion for next week? (and invite Bob Lund)" taken up [from MikeSmith]
15:55:59 <MikeSmith> s/and get metagenerator dropped/and see if we can get closer to agreement, and maybe metagenerator will end up being dropped without counter CPs/
15:56:20 <JF> will defer agenda item 5 to next week
15:56:28 <JF> zakim, take up item 6
15:56:28 <Zakim> agendum 6. "text subteam report" taken up [from MikeSmith]
15:56:49 <JF> JB: there was no meeting this week. still working on buggy alt guidance and buggy alt text
15:57:06 <JF> evolving discussion there,
15:57:34 <JF> JS: David MacDonald is back and able to assist
15:57:50 <JF> zakim, take up item 9
15:57:50 <Zakim> agendum 9. "Other Business" taken up [from MikeSmith]
15:58:00 <JF> MS: anything else?
15:58:17 <JF> JS: 1 point - what to do with bugs that we might want to revisit
15:59:07 <JF> lately discovered that the media elements should be directly focusable, and not explicitly rely on controls 
16:00:00 <JF> JF: suggest that next week we have a generic "media bugs" topic
16:00:09 <JF> MS: should invite Bob to the call next week
16:00:34 <JF> JF to invite Bob to next weeks call
16:00:44 <JF> JS to work on Silvia's media focus bug
16:00:49 <JF> zakim, next item
16:00:49 <Zakim> agendum 5. "bug 13357 schedule discussion for next week? (and invite Bob Lund)" taken up [from MikeSmith]
16:00:59 <JF> zakim, take up item 10
16:00:59 <Zakim> agendum 10. "Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open" taken up [from MikeSmith]
16:01:14 <JF> zakim , item 11
16:01:26 <JF> zakim, take up item 11
16:01:26 <Zakim> agendum 11. "Identify Scribe for the next TF teleconference http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List" taken up [from MikeSmith]
16:02:02 <Zakim> -??P6
16:02:03 <Zakim> -Mike
16:02:04 <Zakim> -Judy
16:02:04 <Zakim> -Cooper
16:02:06 <Zakim> -??P15
16:02:33 <Zakim> -John_Foliot
16:02:35 <janina> janina has left #html-a11y
16:02:56 <JF> rrsagent, make logs public
16:03:07 <JF> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:03:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/07/05-html-a11y-minutes.html JF
16:03:08 <paulc> quit
16:03:39 <JF> zakim, please part
16:03:39 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were John_Foliot, Cooper, Janina, Mike, Judy, [Microsoft], Janina.a, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:03:39 <Zakim> Zakim has left #html-a11y
16:03:47 <JF> rrsagent, please part
16:03:47 <RRSAgent> I see no action items