12:27:16 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #eo
12:27:16 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/06/29-eo-irc
12:27:18 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
12:27:18 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #eo
12:27:20 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 3694
12:27:20 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_EOWG()8:30AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
12:27:21 <trackbot> Meeting: Education and Outreach Working Group Teleconference
12:27:21 <trackbot> Date: 29 June 2012
12:29:27 <Zakim> WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has now started
12:29:34 <Zakim> +??P0
12:29:50 <Vicki> Vicki has joined #eo
12:30:14 <Zakim> +Shawn
12:30:35 <shawn> zakim, ??P0 is Vicki
12:30:35 <Zakim> +Vicki; got it
12:31:10 <Zakim> +Sharron
12:31:34 <Zakim> +Shadi
12:32:07 <Zakim> +??P4
12:32:12 <dboudreau> dboudreau has joined #eo
12:32:23 <Zakim> +Sylvie_Duchateau
12:32:43 <suzette> suzette has joined #eo
12:32:54 <Zakim> + +1.514.312.aaaa
12:33:08 <Sharron> zakim, P4 is Denis
12:33:08 <Zakim> sorry, Sharron, I do not recognize a party named 'P4'
12:33:24 <dboudreau> zakim, aaaa is dboudreau
12:33:24 <Zakim> +dboudreau; got it
12:33:27 <Sharron> zakim, P4 is really Suzette
12:33:27 <Zakim> sorry, Sharron, I do not recognize a party named 'P4'
12:33:37 <shawn> scribe: Sharron
12:33:42 <shadi> zakim, mute me
12:33:42 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
12:33:43 <Sylvie> Sylvie has joined #eo
12:33:54 <Sharron> zakim, ??P4 is Suzette
12:33:54 <Zakim> +Suzette; got it
12:34:06 <Sharron> akim, aaaa is Sharron
12:34:24 <shawn> zakim, who is on the phone?
12:34:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see Vicki, Shawn, Sharron, Shadi (muted), Suzette, Sylvie_Duchateau, dboudreau
12:34:27 <Sylvie> zakim, mue me
12:34:27 <Zakim> I don't understand 'mue me', Sylvie
12:34:28 <Sharron> Scribe: Sharron
12:34:40 <Sylvie> zakim, mute me
12:34:40 <Zakim> Sylvie_Duchateau should now be muted
12:34:49 <Sharron> zakim, take up first agenda item
12:34:49 <Zakim> I don't understand 'take up first agenda item', Sharron
12:35:08 <shadi> Topic: TPAC Registration
12:35:10 <Sharron> Topic: TPAC, Face to Face
12:35:44 <Sharron> Shawn: Registration is open. EO meets on Thursday and Friday
12:35:51 <shawn> http://www.w3.org/2012/10/TPAC/#Registration
12:35:52 <shadi> q+
12:35:57 <shadi> ack me
12:36:43 <Sharron> Shadi: Let me know if you want to attend on Monday and Tuesday. Might be interested in future work
12:36:45 <shadi> zakim, mute me
12:36:45 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
12:37:16 <Sharron> Shawn: We might do a formal meeting with the Task Force.  Might be a good time to discuss evaluation resources suite.
12:37:37 <dboudreau> zakim, mute me
12:37:37 <Zakim> dboudreau should now be muted
12:37:40 <dboudreau> no
12:37:48 <Vicki> yes
12:37:48 <Sylvie> maybe
12:37:55 <Sharron> ...hard to predict where we will be but if possible, may want to try at least for Tuesday
12:37:58 <Sharron> yes
12:38:14 <suzette> not sure - anyone share a room
12:38:24 <Sharron> Topic: How People with Disabilities Use the Web
12:38:41 <shawn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/How_People_Use_the_Web_Notes#For_EOWG_discussion:
12:39:22 <shadi> ack me
12:41:00 <Sharron> Shadi: Been working on this version for a while. Hope to have it wrapped up by end of July. Working through previous comments, including extensive ones from Shawn. Don't be too daunted by extensive notes, most are copy edited but a few need to be brought in for discussion.
12:41:51 <Sharron> ...Today would like to focus on Diversity in Web Use and ?? Can we jump in. There is link to wiki page that captures issues for today' discussion.
12:42:21 <shawn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/PWD-Use-Web/2009/stories
12:42:37 <Sharron> ...Stories of Web Users is linked from wiki page let's consider this draft and the comments. 
12:43:09 <shawn> q+ to say (for later) colorblind first?
12:43:40 <Sharron> ...first point on Ms. Laitinen. Should she be a fluent or not so fluent user of Braille?
12:43:59 <Sylvie> q+
12:44:11 <Sharron> ...decided that her Braille use would be for very detailed work but not be as fluent as user.
12:44:13 <shawn> q- later
12:44:20 <Sharron> s/as/a
12:45:50 <Sharron> Shadi: Any discussion of that decision - that she is less fluent and uses Brille as a check for detailed work like numbers, etc?
12:45:51 <shawn> ack syl
12:45:53 <Sylvie> zakim, unmute me
12:45:53 <Zakim> Sylvie_Duchateau was not muted, Sylvie
12:47:13 <Sharron> Sylvie: I agree that not all blind people are expert Braille users. But the connotation as it is seems negative. Perhaps a bit negative to say "she does not read very well" 
12:47:43 <Sharron> Shawn: I can help with the wording, don't need to do it more.
12:48:34 <Sharron> Sylvie: You talk then about screen reader and refreshable Braille, but isn't that a contradiction if she doesn't read well?
12:48:59 <Sharron> Shadi: Can maybe say she reads Braille but prefers screen reading software.
12:49:29 <Sharron> Shawn: Maybe say mostly uses screen reader and occaisionally uses Braille.
12:49:32 <Sylvie> zakim, mute me
12:49:32 <Zakim> Sylvie_Duchateau should now be muted
12:50:02 <Sharron> Suzette: What would be the scenario where a user would fall back to Braille?
12:51:30 <Sylvie> I need to read it again.
12:51:41 <Zakim> -Sharron
12:52:05 <dboudreau> i'll do it
12:52:17 <dboudreau> ack me
12:52:20 <Sylvie> zakim, unmute me
12:52:20 <Zakim> Sylvie_Duchateau should no longer be muted
12:52:28 <dboudreau> scribe: dboudreau
12:52:33 <dboudreau> zakim,mute me
12:52:33 <Zakim> dboudreau should now be muted
12:53:49 <dboudreau> sylvie: i'm afraid people will miss the point about her being able to read braille or not
12:55:12 <dboudreau> sylvie: my problem is the sentence is too long and overcomplicated, maybe some little copy editing?
12:56:26 <dboudreau> shadi: helpful to confirm that the concept is wrong - i can see how it could be shortened
12:56:39 <Sylvie> zakim, mute me
12:56:39 <Zakim> Sylvie_Duchateau should now be muted
12:56:41 <dboudreau> shadi: thoughts from others?
12:57:07 <dboudreau> ack me
12:57:21 <IanPouncey> IanPouncey has joined #eo
12:58:10 <dboudreau> shadi: taking shawn's offer for some copy editing on this
12:58:30 <dboudreau> shadi: more ocnformtable to use text out speech than braille
12:59:50 <dboudreau> shawn: the 1st one in the list is colour-blindness, not a particularly compelling example
12:59:52 <Zakim> +??P2
13:00:05 <IanPouncey> Zakim, ??P2 is IanPouncey
13:00:05 <Zakim> +IanPouncey; got it
13:00:08 <dboudreau> shadi: let's look at story order
13:00:13 <shawn> ack me
13:00:13 <Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say (for later) colorblind first?
13:00:51 <dboudreau> shadi: next point is Ms. Kaseem
13:01:31 <shawn> zakim, who is making noise?
13:01:42 <dboudreau> shadi: in previous version, a deaf person who became legally blind
13:01:44 <Zakim> shawn, listening for 12 seconds I heard sound from the following: dboudreau (4%)
13:01:51 <dboudreau> zakim, mute me
13:01:51 <Zakim> dboudreau should now be muted
13:03:02 <dboudreau> shadi: story seemed a bit overstretched for some people
13:03:35 <dboudreau> shadi: remove the use of mobile device from the story and just bring the mobile device element to another story
13:04:42 <dboudreau> shadi: proposed resolution is to roll back to mobile and leave that as future wish list
13:04:57 <dboudreau> ack me
13:04:58 <IanPouncey> IanPouncey has joined #eo
13:05:42 <dboudreau> shadi: totally take mobile out of that story and create another one for mobile later
13:06:08 <dboudreau> zakim, mute me
13:06:08 <Zakim> dboudreau should now be muted
13:06:23 <Vicki> fine with me
13:06:30 <dboudreau> shadi: the mobile bit doesn't fit well in there
13:07:02 <dboudreau> shawn: I'm happy to revert to it and I trust shadi's judgement
13:07:05 <suzette> good to have mobile on wish list
13:07:12 <dboudreau> I'm also fine with reverting
13:07:49 <dboudreau> we should be very careful not to overcharge the stories so they remain credible
13:08:15 <dboudreau> So whatever it is we need to take out, we should so it's doesn'T look "too big"
13:08:31 <dboudreau> do so*
13:09:18 <Sylvie> zakim, unmute me
13:09:18 <Zakim> Sylvie_Duchateau should no longer be muted
13:09:30 <dboudreau> shadi: it's much preferable to plan another story centred on mobile than try to ram it into an enlisting one
13:09:43 <dboudreau> s/enlisting/existing
13:10:06 <dboudreau> sylvie: i have internationalization concerns with this
13:10:32 <dboudreau> ack me
13:10:59 <shawn> Sylvie: issue with "legally blind" internationally
13:11:07 <shawn> ... and issues with being able to see some
13:11:37 <Zakim> -IanPouncey
13:12:00 <Zakim> +??P2
13:12:03 <shawn> [ Shawn knows in UK: "registered blind"]
13:12:34 <IanPouncey> IanPouncey has joined #eo
13:12:47 <dboudreau> sylvie: in europe, legally blind has their own criteria for recognizing someone who's blind and if we say she can see partially, it might throw peole off
13:13:15 <suzette> there is a wikipedia entry on blindness in US and EU
13:13:57 <dboudreau> shadi: should we even integrate the term legally blind in there?
13:14:17 <dboudreau> i think we should leave the term out then
13:15:59 <dboudreau> shawn: and focus on the fact that she has a visual disability (or tunnel vision) that would give it something specific to say
13:16:01 <Sylvie> zakim, mute me
13:16:01 <Zakim> Sylvie_Duchateau should now be muted
13:17:21 <dboudreau> shawn: i'm happy to help word smith this as well - the emphasis should be on visual condition
13:17:26 <Sylvie> +1 to Shawn
13:17:49 <shawn> ... can say something like, which is considered legally blind in her country
13:20:05 <dboudreau> shadi: bottom line is - let's be careful with jargon and address deaf/blindness as a condition that's very important
13:20:11 <IanPouncey> IanPouncey has joined #eo
13:22:04 <dboudreau> shadi: let's focus on explaining the condition, that's the real important part in this
13:22:40 <dboudreau> Shadi: Next story - Miss Martinez
13:22:59 <shawn> q+ to look *briefly* :-) at order of stories
13:23:09 <dboudreau> shadi: another mobile concern 
13:24:06 <shawn> ack me
13:24:06 <Zakim> shawn, you wanted to look *briefly* :-) at order of stories
13:24:32 <dboudreau> shadi: order of stories - should we change it?
13:24:56 <dboudreau> shawn: maybe not start with colour-blindness is the 1st story?
13:26:24 <Vicki> good point denis.
13:27:11 <dboudreau> denis: we should align the order to at least fit in with the order and prioritization we made in the accessibility basics document
13:28:48 <IanPouncey> IanPouncey has joined #eo
13:29:16 <dboudreau> shadi: i don't seem much problem in having different orders for the stories as the documents have different purposes
13:32:03 <Vicki> fine with me
13:32:22 <dboudreau> denis: let's avoid prioritizing the stories by how disabling the disabilities actually are
13:34:51 <dboudreau> shadi: let's continue with diversity in web use - 2 issues there: 1. the title (very similar titles - diversity of web users and web uses) and 2. conceptually, the page objectives seem kind of related
13:34:55 <IanPouncey> IanPouncey has joined #eo
13:36:17 <Zakim> -??P2
13:36:38 <Zakim> +??P2
13:36:49 <dboudreau> shadi: both titles and topics are very related in appearance but not in the approach - we need to look at the overlap
13:36:53 <IanPouncey> Zakim, ??P2 is IanPouncey
13:36:53 <Zakim> +IanPouncey; got it
13:39:43 <suzette> Suzette: i think the separation of the people from the tools and strategies worked OK
13:40:37 <suzette> Suzette: When the tab links are viewed in isolation they are too similar , I thought the second one should emphasis tools or strategies
13:41:05 <suzette> Suzette: so I think the title is the issue
13:41:45 <shawn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/How_People_Use_the_Web_Notes#Page_Title
13:42:03 <Sylvie> What about browsing strategies or different g strategies?browsing st
13:42:29 <Sylvie> sorry: different browsing strategies
13:42:33 <IanPouncey> IanPouncey has joined #eo
13:42:50 <dboudreau> shadi: focus on tools and strategies
13:43:00 <suzette> Different Tools and strategies
13:43:08 <Sylvie> too long
13:43:14 <dboudreau> shawn: assistive technologies and browsing strategies
13:44:30 <dboudreau> shawn: if ppl don't even understand what AT is, they could hardly understand what we're talking about
13:44:59 <shawn> s/assistive technologies and browsing strategies/Assistive Technologies and Adaptive Strategies/
13:45:06 <shawn> web wheelchairs :-)
13:45:42 <shawn> Hardware, software, and personal techniques
13:45:58 <shawn> Denis: Tools and strategies
13:46:16 <Zakim> -IanPouncey
13:46:51 <dboudreau> shawn: user interaction is important, so are design solutions
13:47:01 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
13:47:09 <dboudreau> s/shawn/suzette/
13:47:14 <IanPouncey> Zakim, [IPcaller] is IanPouncey
13:47:14 <Zakim> +IanPouncey; got it
13:47:22 <shawn> s/shawn: user interaction is important, so are design solutions/vicki: user interaction is important, so are design solutions/
13:47:41 <shawn> vicki: user interaction is important, so are design solutions
13:48:14 <suzette> tools and preferences (is the first subheading)
13:48:34 <dboudreau> shawn: Tools and techniques?
13:48:55 <Sylvie> zakim, unmute me
13:48:55 <Zakim> Sylvie_Duchateau should no longer be muted
13:49:24 <dboudreau> sylvie: techniques would be too similar, i would agree with tools and preferences
13:49:38 <dboudreau> vicky: tools and preferences would work
13:49:50 <dboudreau> shadi: i like tools and preferences too
13:50:10 <IanPouncey> IanPouncey has joined #eo
13:50:45 <dboudreau> How about using the right tools?
13:50:56 <dboudreau> shawn: tools people use? 
13:51:10 <shawn> Users' Tools and Techniques
13:51:13 <dboudreau> shawn: users, tools and techniques?
13:51:37 <shawn> Tools and Techniques Users Use :)
13:52:44 <shawn> Tools and Strategies
13:53:16 <shawn> Strategies for Web Use
13:54:07 <dboudreau> shadi: i could go with either
13:54:17 <shawn> Tools and Strategies for Web Use (short version: Tools and Strategies)
13:54:20 <dboudreau> 1. Tools and Techniques
13:54:30 <dboudreau> (cross that)
13:54:38 <dboudreau> 1. tools and strategies
13:54:44 <dboudreau> 2. strategies for web use
13:54:55 <suzette> +1 for strategies for web use
13:55:16 <dboudreau> +1 for strategies for web use
13:55:35 <shawn> Configurations for Web Use
13:55:42 <Vicki> +1 for Tools and Strategies
13:55:43 <shawn> Tools and Cnfigurations
13:56:55 <dboudreau> shawn: let's bring these new suggestions in the wiki
13:57:47 <IanPouncey> IanPouncey has joined #eo
13:57:49 <shadi> zakim, mute me
13:57:49 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
13:57:51 <dboudreau> shawn: anything else?
13:58:06 <suzette> yes good work
13:58:10 <Sylvie> zakim, mute me
13:58:10 <Zakim> Sylvie_Duchateau should now be muted
13:58:15 <dboudreau> topic: wcag overview
13:58:32 <Zakim> -Shadi
13:58:56 <dboudreau> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/WCAG_Overview_Notes
13:59:17 <shawn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/WCAG_Overview_Revision_Draft_with_Comments
13:59:42 <Sylvie> zakim, unmute me
13:59:43 <Zakim> Sylvie_Duchateau should no longer be muted
14:00:06 <dboudreau> http://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/wcag.php
14:00:57 <dboudreau> shawn: let'S start by looking at original wcag overview page
14:01:55 <shawn> scribe: Vikci
14:02:00 <shawn> scribe: Vicki
14:03:37 <Vicki> shawn:  look at the existing page and see if there are overall comments.  look at specific scenario, one use case e.g. we sent out a press release saying that wcag 2.0 is now... etc. so somebody gets this and not particular familiar with wai or 
14:04:08 <Vicki> shawn:  they follow the link and end up here.  what overall comments would you have about this existing page?
14:05:03 <Vicki> shawn:  the page was designed a long time ago.  is this page meeting the needs today?
14:05:24 <IanPouncey> IanPouncey has joined #eo
14:05:29 <Vicki> denis:  as regards the ref to iso, it looks something positive, but don't know what the wai position is
14:06:31 <Vicki> shawn:  it is positive.
14:07:23 <Vicki> shawn:  the idea is just to look at how to improve this page overall
14:08:19 <Vicki> denis:  tempted to have the principles explained here.
14:08:41 <shawn> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:08:42 <Zakim> On the phone I see Vicki, Shawn, Suzette, Sylvie_Duchateau, dboudreau, IanPouncey
14:11:10 <Vicki> sylvie:  maybe remove the older references to wcag 1.  also, might confuse people if we talk about atag at the beginning
14:12:29 <IanPouncey> IanPouncey has joined #eo
14:12:32 <Vicki> denis:  in eval group, we have looked at a list for who wcag is intended for and we have a much more extensive list of people so maybe we should compare the two lists and see what we want to add.
14:16:06 <Vicki> ian:  I think the iso section needs more but i understand that it needs to be finalized.  Perhaps make it clearer that ISO is WCAG 2.  First paragraph of "what is in the WCAG documents", perhaps it needs to be simpler.  Content is spot on, just a friendlier style.
14:16:10 <Sylvie> q+
14:18:35 <Sylvie> zakim, mute me
14:18:36 <Zakim> Sylvie_Duchateau should now be muted
14:18:38 <suzette> third paragraph starts What is in WCAG 2.0
14:18:44 <dboudreau> q+
14:19:23 <shawn> ack syl
14:19:27 <Vicki> shawn:  it appears that moving ATAG and UUAG to the end is required.
14:19:27 <Sylvie> zakim, unmute me
14:19:27 <Zakim> Sylvie_Duchateau was not muted, Sylvie
14:19:35 <Zakim> -IanPouncey
14:19:54 <Zakim> +??P2
14:20:07 <IanPouncey> Zakim, ??P2 is IanPouncey
14:20:07 <Zakim> +IanPouncey; got it
14:20:56 <Vicki> sylvie:  general comments:  if WCAG is becoming ISO, something about translations should be mentioned.  We need on the supporting docs that WAI plans to update, so maybe we should mention that we already have updates and maybe which updates could be found, i.e., more exhaustive about the techniques.  
14:21:22 <shawn> ack d
14:22:20 <Vicki> denis:  on "who develops wcag".  not sure that it's relevant to have the second and third paragraphs in this document.  
14:22:30 <Vicki> shawn:  I agree.  I'll check on that.
14:23:22 <Vicki> suzette:  in the menu list:  there is something about "development process", can we not move some of that there.
14:23:57 <Vicki> shawn:  our continued message is that "you are welcome to contribute", maybe we need to find a shorter and more friendlier way to do this.
14:24:21 <suzette> suzette: each of the pages on WCAG, ATAG and UAAG have the same piece on how it was developed
14:24:34 <Sylvie> zakim, mute me
14:24:34 <Zakim> Sylvie_Duchateau should now be muted
14:24:43 <Vicki> ian:  would it be mixing things up if we put that here.  There already appears to be an overload of information.  Now, asking people to also contribute, it might seem a little quick to contribute.  They're not ready yet.
14:24:52 <Vicki> shawn:  yes, we'll look at this.
14:25:24 <dboudreau> ack me
14:26:21 <Vicki> shawn:  In terms of your scheduling, at some point soon, ISO will be done.  In case you see tweets etc., watch out for those.  When it is ready, W3C and WAI will clearly announce it with press release, tweets, blog etc.  
14:26:36 <Vicki> shawn:  if you have any more of the Overview page, please send them soon.
14:26:55 <Vicki> shawn:  the last agenda item is "Action items"
14:27:18 <Vicki> Topic: Action item
14:27:20 <shawn> Action item - discuss assigning actions for active participants to review docs for publication in July
14:27:20 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - item
14:28:21 <Vicki> shawn:  We previously said that we do not assign actions unless people are on the call but I would like to propose that we make an exception in this case.  I would like to propose that we assign action items in tracker for ALL active participants.  Is that okay for everyone?
14:28:33 <Vicki> Denis, Suzette, Vicki are all okay
14:29:11 <Vicki> shawn:  great, no objections.  Please update your availability for forthcoming meetings.  13th and 20th we may not meet.  I will have several documents for review.
14:29:26 <Vicki> Bon weekend à tous!
14:29:29 <Zakim> -IanPouncey
14:29:31 <Zakim> -Suzette
14:29:36 <dboudreau> bon week-end tout le monde :)
14:29:56 <dboudreau> dboudreau has left #eo
14:30:08 <Zakim> -dboudreau
14:30:23 <Vicki> trackbot, end meeting
14:30:23 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
14:30:23 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Shawn, Vicki, Sharron, Shadi, Sylvie_Duchateau, +1.514.312.aaaa, dboudreau, Suzette, IanPouncey
14:30:26 <Zakim> -Sylvie_Duchateau
14:30:31 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
14:30:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/29-eo-minutes.html trackbot
14:30:32 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
14:30:32 <RRSAgent> I see no action items