13:56:15 RRSAgent has joined #wcag2ict 13:56:15 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/06/22-wcag2ict-irc 13:56:17 RRSAgent, make logs world 13:56:17 Zakim has joined #wcag2ict 13:56:19 Zakim, this will be 2428 13:56:19 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes 13:56:20 Meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference 13:56:20 Date: 22 June 2012 13:57:00 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wcag2ict-tf/2012Jun/0081.html 13:57:35 WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM has now started 13:57:42 + +1.540.373.aaaa 13:58:03 +Cooper 13:58:09 -Cooper 13:58:29 +Cooper 13:58:45 zakim, aaaa is Al_Hoffman 13:58:46 +Al_Hoffman; got it 13:59:04 +David_MacDonald 13:59:09 agenda+ Action items review [2] 13:59:11 agenda+ June 22nd Meeting Preparation Survey [3] 13:59:12 agenda+ Return to June 5th Meeting Prep Survey, starting with 2.4.2 Page Titled [4] 13:59:14 agenda+ Confirm next meeting time; action items; 13:59:26 +Andi_Snow_Weaver 13:59:38 +Mary_Jo_Mueller 13:59:46 MaryJo has joined #wcag2ict 13:59:59 regrets: Janina_Sajka, Loïc_Martínez_Normand, Kiran_Kaja, Shadi_Abou-Zahra, Gregg_Vanderheiden 14:00:05 chair: Andi_Snow-Weaver 14:00:29 zakim, who is on the phone? 14:00:29 On the phone I see Al_Hoffman, Cooper, David_MacDonald, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Mary_Jo_Mueller 14:00:43 scribe: MaryJo 14:01:15 David has joined #wcag2ict 14:02:04 +[Microsoft] 14:02:15 zakim, Microsoft is Alex_Li 14:02:15 +Alex_Li; got it 14:03:14 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/JUN222012/ 14:03:17 korn has joined #wcag2ict 14:03:25 +Andrew_Kirkpatrick 14:04:17 +[Oracle] 14:04:27 Zakim, Oracle is Peter_KOrn 14:04:27 +Peter_KOrn; got it 14:04:36 zakim, Peter is Peter_Korn 14:04:36 +Peter_Korn; got it 14:04:44 zakim, next item 14:04:44 agendum 1. "Action items review" taken up [from 2] 14:04:47 Thankis MichaeK 14:05:52 http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG2ICT-TF/track/actions/open 14:06:05 alex has joined #wcag2ict 14:06:24 Pierce has joined #wcag2ict 14:06:25 Oops, seems I dropped off. Calling back... 14:06:28 AS: Action 14 ws not accepted by the WCAG group. So we still need to deal with 4.1.1 14:06:58 +Pierce_Crowell 14:07:19 +Judy 14:07:29 -Peter_Korn 14:08:06 +Peter_Korn 14:10:24 AS: We are concerned about what gets to the AT. Whether the AT is parsing, or the user agent is parsing and exposing something different to the AT. Trying to head off that inconsistency. 14:12:00 +q 14:12:03 Al: For Web, some AT processes pure HTML, but primarily is working on the DOM. AT's have an easier time working with the DOM. 14:12:12 q+ 14:12:17 ack Pierce 14:12:21 Al: This doesn't really seem to make a lot of sense in the software world. 14:12:43 Mike_P has joined #wcag2ict 14:13:13 q+ 14:13:32 Pierce: We should say that the applicability is limited by the nature of software. 14:13:32 +q 14:14:02 -q 14:14:02 +q 14:14:24 ack Andi 14:14:30 AS: Our scope doesn't allow us to say it doesn't apply - it's in our charter. That's why we're trying to propose it as a note in WCAG. They just didn't like our wording. 14:14:47 ack korn 14:15:50 q+ 14:15:54 ack Pierce 14:16:45 ack Andi 14:17:24 Pierce: Maybe we can use the idea that the meaning is qualified only for the context where the markup is parsed. It would be a fundamental alteration to software to have this be supported. 14:19:14 Having problems accessing the Google site... 14:20:09 q+ 14:20:28 q+ 14:21:07 Al: We've discussed what doesn't apply, but should concentrate on what does apply. Maybe we can just say this applies as written. 14:21:28 +q 14:21:56 Alex: But we still need to exclude any markup that doesn't have a negative effect on the AT's presentation of the accessibility information to the user. 14:22:01 +??P18 14:22:25 ack alex 14:22:32 ack peter 14:22:36 ack korn 14:22:54 Yes it is Mike joining 14:23:02 zakim, who's on the phone? 14:23:02 On the phone I see Al_Hoffman, Cooper, David_MacDonald, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Mary_Jo_Mueller, Alex_Li, Andrew_Kirkpatrick, Pierce_Crowell, Judy, Peter_Korn, ??P18 14:23:21 zakim, ??P18 is Mike_Pluke 14:23:21 +Mike_Pluke; got it 14:23:58 ack pierce 14:23:58 This applies directly as written, and as described in INTENT from Understanding WCAG 2.0 (above) and should not be construed as requiring conformance for SW that does not use or edit markup or SW that only uses markup through SW rules not normally exposed to end users. 14:26:00 This applies directly as written, and as described in INTENT from Understanding WCAG 2.0 (above) and should not be construed as requiring conformance for SW that does not use or edit markup or SW that only uses or edits markup through SW rules not normally exposed to end users. 14:27:42 q+ 14:28:22 +Bruce_Bailey 14:29:43 ack alex 14:29:56 BBailey has joined #wcag2ict 14:30:30 q+ 14:30:35 ack alex 14:31:37 AWK has joined #wcag2ict 14:33:16 This applies directly as written, and as described in INTENT from Understanding WCAG 2.0 (above) for content that is separately exposed and available to AT.  It should not be construed as applying to markup used internally by software solely to encode its user interface. 14:34:35 This applies directly as written, and as described in INTENT from Understanding WCAG 2.0 (above) for content that is separately exposed and available to AT.  It should not be construed as applying to markup used internally by software solely to encode its user interface and that is not exposed to AT. 14:36:07 +q 14:36:58 q+ 14:37:04 ack pierce 14:37:21 q+ 14:38:06 Pierce: Concerned about the term 'separately exposed' being misunderstood. 14:38:09 q- 14:38:41 Andi: We can give an example and word it so that it is not construed as a technique. 14:39:23 q+ 14:39:33 ack Mike_P 14:39:57 ack alex 14:42:21 Note: An example of markup that is separately exposed and available to AT is HTML, which can both be parsed entirely by AT through an http get request as well as commonly available as part of DOM APIs used by AT. 14:43:12 q+ 14:43:57 q+ 14:44:37 ack AWK 14:45:21 ack alex 14:47:03 -Bruce_Bailey 14:50:14 zakim, next item 14:50:14 agendum 2. "June 22nd Meeting Preparation Survey" taken up [from 3] 14:50:26 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/JUN222012/results 14:50:33 +q 14:50:54 Note: The layout and structure of a variety of software UI frameworks are described and persisted in markup , where the markup is used internally and not available to AT.  This criterion would not apply to the markup in these cases. 14:51:40 AS: 3.3.1 Error Identification 14:51:58 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/JUN222012/results#xq2 14:52:54 Note: The layout and structure of a variety of software UI frameworks are described and persisted in markup , where the markup is used internally and not available to AT either directly or through a DOM.  This criterion would automatically be met in such cases. 14:53:04 +q 14:53:10 Note: The layout and structure of a variety of software UI frameworks are described and persisted in markup , where the markup is used internally and not available to AT, either directly or through a DOM. In this type of software, this criterion would automatically be met. 14:54:32 This applies directly as written, and as described in INTENT from Understanding WCAG 2.0 (above) for content that is separately exposed and available to AT.  It should not be construed as applying to markup used internally by software solely to encode its user interface and that is not exposed to AT. 14:54:41 Note: An example of markup that is separately exposed and available to AT is HTML, which can both be parsed entirely by AT through an http get request as well as commonly available as part of DOM APIs used by AT. 14:54:47 Note: The layout and structure of a variety of software UI frameworks are described and persisted in markup , where the markup is used internally and not available to AT, either directly or through a DOM. In this type of software, this criterion would automatically be met. 14:54:53 This applies directly as written, and as described in INTENT from Understanding WCAG 2.0 (above) for content that is separately exposed and available to AT.  It should not be construed as applying to markup used internally by software solely to encode its user interface and not exposed to AT. 14:54:53 Note: An example of markup that is separately exposed and available to AT is HTML, which can both be parsed entirely by AT through an http get request as well as commonly available as part of DOM APIs used by AT. 14:54:53 Note: The layout and structure of a variety of software UI frameworks are described and persisted in markup , where the markup is used internally and not available to AT, either directly or through a DOM. In this type of software, this criterion would automatically be met. 14:55:47 q+ 14:56:10 q+ Al_Hoffman 14:56:10 -q 14:56:21 q+ to say "the INTENT" 14:56:30 ack Mike_P 14:56:44 ack alex 14:57:49 So Alex: Note: An example of markup that is separately exposed and available to AT is HTML via an http get request, which can both be parsed entirely by AT as well as commonly available as part of DOM APIs used by AT. 14:58:11 ack al 14:58:42 +q 14:58:42 -q 14:59:13 I am ready for 3.3.1 14:59:55 ack david 14:59:55 David, you wanted to say "the INTENT" 15:00:54 ack david 15:01:36 q+ 15:01:38 This applies directly as written, and as described in INTENT from Understanding WCAG 2.0 (above) solely for content that is separately exposed and available to AT. 15:01:49 AS: Propose that the sentence about "It should not be construed as applying..." be removed. 15:02:23 This applies directly as written, and as described in INTENT from Understanding WCAG 2.0 (above) solely for content that is separately exposed and available to AT.  It should not be construed as applying to markup used internally by software solely to encode its user interface and not exposed to AT. 15:02:43 Note: An example of markup that is separately exposed and available to AT is HTML, which can both be parsed entirely by AT through an http get request as well as commonly available as part of DOM APIs used by AT. 15:02:52 Note: The layout and structure of a variety of software UI frameworks are described and persisted in markup , where the markup is used internally and not available to AT, either directly or through a DOM. In this type of software, this criterion would automatically be met. 15:03:02 Q- 15:03:08 q+ 15:03:33 ack judy 15:04:34 This applies directly as written, and as described in INTENT from Understanding WCAG 2.0 (above) specifically for content that is separately exposed and available to AT.  It should not be construed as applying to markup used internally by software solely to encode its user interface and not exposed to AT. 15:04:48 q+ 15:05:18 judy: Want to make sure the use of the word 'solely' is not misconstrued. 15:05:51 s/'solely'/'solely' nor 'specifically'/ 15:05:59 This applies directly as written, and as described in INTENT from Understanding WCAG 2.0 (above) for content that is separately exposed and available to AT. Where markup languages are used to describe UI frameworks internally and are not available to AT, either directly or through a DOM, this criterion would automatically be met. 15:06:40 Note: An example of markup that is separately exposed and available to AT is HTML, which can both be parsed entirely by AT through an http get request as well as commonly available as part of DOM APIs used by AT. 15:07:12 +1 15:07:12 +q 15:07:22 +1 15:07:22 ack judy 15:07:26 q- 15:07:42 ack pierce 15:08:57 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/JUN222012/results 15:09:15 RESOLUTION: Accept the wording for 4.1.1 as proposed in the meeting. 15:09:16 +q 15:11:03 AS: Back to discussion on 3.3.1. 15:12:03 Note: The WCAG 2.0 definition of "input error" says that it is "information provided by the user that is not accepted" by the software. Some reasons for not accepting user information may be formatting errors and syntax errors. 15:12:05 Q+ 15:12:13 ack pierce 15:12:34 ack Mike_P 15:13:08 RESOLUTION: Accept Loïc proposal for 3.3.1 as amended in the meeting. 15:13:30 AS: 3.3.3 Error Suggestoin 15:13:45 s /Suggestoin/Suggestion/ 15:13:48 Note: The WCAG 2.0 definition of "input error" says that it is "information provided by the user that is not accepted" by the software. Some reasons for not accepting user information may be formatting errors and syntax errors. 15:14:15 RESOLUTION: Accept Loïc's proposal for 3.3.3 as amended in the meeting. 15:14:39 AS: 4.1.2 Name, Role, Value 15:14:47 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/JUN222012/results#xq4 15:15:54 +q 15:17:10 q+ Al_Hoffman 15:18:14 ack pierce 15:18:26 Pierce: Objects to the use of 'development toolkits' in general. Some platforms you have choices and some you don't. Don't want anyone to have an out because their toolkit doesn't support it. 15:18:35 q+ 15:18:40 ack Al 15:18:57 q+ 15:19:27 +1 on Al's comments on sustaining TEITAC 15:20:08 ack Andi 15:20:29 ack alex 15:21:48 q+ 15:22:02 +q 15:22:34 ack awk 15:23:47 q+ 15:24:01 the platform services list from ANPRM: http://www.access-board.gov/sec508/refresh/draft-rule.htm#_Toc310327598 (502.2) 15:24:19 Andi - a suggested edit orthogonal to this discussion that better matches the SC: Most platforms accessibility services go beyond programmatic exposure of name and role, and programmatically setting the states, properties and values (and notification of same), and specify additional things that could or should be exposed. 15:24:35 q+ 15:24:40 ack pierce 15:25:20 ack mike 15:25:50 Q+ 15:25:52 Al: Wants to capture a list of information that is available through platform services should be exposed in addition to name, role, and value. 15:25:54 ack alex 15:26:12 ack mike 15:26:58 q+ 15:27:00 q+ 15:27:24 Al: One example is a software interface with a table and need to associate headers with the cells. 15:27:58 ack korn 15:29:27 PK: Table is covered by SC 1.3.1 which covers that the structure and relationships conveyed through presentation can be programmatically determined. 15:29:41 ack awk 15:29:53 q+ 15:29:53 +q 15:30:18 q+ 15:30:52 ack mike 15:30:59 ack pierce 15:31:03 MP: These things are ennumerated in M376 15:31:08 ack alex 15:31:26 Pierce: Not sure if Section 508 will be ennumerating this list. 15:31:29 q+ 15:31:42 -Al_Hoffman 15:32:26 Alex: Don't want a list that is too restrictive to make sure it doesn't become outdated over time. 15:34:00 AS: We're behind schedule and wanted to get a draft out the week after next week. Can we send the first draft without several success criteria not having consensed text. 15:34:04 ack korn 15:34:41 Most platforms accessibility services go beyond programmatic exposure of name and role, and programmatic setting the states, properties and values (and notification of same), and specify additional things that could or should be exposed. 15:34:53 q+ 15:35:42 ack mike 15:35:42 Can we add row column and header 15:36:05 Pierce - perhaps as a note to 1.3.1 (which we have already otherwise consensed on) 15:38:09 Judy: There are several approaches we can take. Need to have intro and framing portion completed. Will have to send something out in July. We should discuss further next week. 15:38:22 -Andi_Snow_Weaver 15:38:24 -Andrew_Kirkpatrick 15:38:24 -Pierce_Crowell 15:38:25 -Judy 15:38:25 -Mary_Jo_Mueller 15:38:26 -Alex_Li 15:38:26 -David_MacDonald 15:38:28 -Peter_Korn 15:38:30 -Cooper 15:38:31 -Mike_Pluke 15:38:34 WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM has ended 15:38:35 Attendees were +1.540.373.aaaa, Cooper, Al_Hoffman, David_MacDonald, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Mary_Jo_Mueller, Alex_Li, Andrew_Kirkpatrick, Peter_KOrn, Pierce_Crowell, Judy, Mike_Pluke, 15:38:38 ... Bruce_Bailey 15:38:46 zakim, bye 15:38:46 Zakim has left #wcag2ict 15:38:50 rrsagent, make minutes 15:38:50 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/22-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi 15:39:13 korn has left #wcag2ict 15:39:56 s/Thankis MichaeK// 15:40:49 s/Oops, seems I dropped off. Calling back...// 15:41:23 s/Having problems accessing the Google site...// 15:41:55 s/Yes it is Mike joining// 15:42:06 rrsagent, make minutes 15:42:06 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/22-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi 15:44:52 s|s/Oops, seems I dropped off. Calling back...//|| 15:45:12 s|Oops, seems I dropped off. Calling back...|| 15:45:18 rrsagent, make minutes 15:45:18 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/22-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi 15:46:11 s/s|Oops, seems I dropped off. Calling back...||// 15:46:18 rrsagent, make minutes 15:46:18 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/22-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi 17:39:16 Judy has joined #wcag2ict 18:00:52 Andi has joined #wcag2ict