16:58:57 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #indie-ui
16:58:57 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/06/20-indie-ui-irc
16:59:15 <janina> zakim, this will be 46343
16:59:15 <Zakim> ok, janina; I see WAI_Indie()1:00PM scheduled to start in 1 minute
16:59:28 <janina> zakim, who's here?
16:59:28 <Zakim> WAI_Indie()1:00PM has not yet started, janina
16:59:29 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, vincent-gros, smaug_, MichaelC
17:00:02 <janina> Meeting: IndieUI Task Force telecon
17:00:02 <janina> Chair: Janina_Sajka
17:00:02 <janina> agenda+ Source code repository Update
17:00:02 <janina> agenda+ Task Force Work Statement http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/IUITF
17:00:02 <janina> agenda+ Recruiting Update
17:00:05 <janina> agenda+ Need to identify tests editor
17:00:07 <janina> agenda+ Use Cases Wiki Update
17:00:10 <janina> agenda+ Events Module & Use Cases from Apple -- James Craig
17:00:12 <janina> agenda+ Next Teleconference Scribe
17:00:15 <janina> agenda+ Be Done
17:00:52 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #indie-ui
17:01:51 <shepazu> shepazu has joined #indie-ui
17:01:51 <janina>  zakim, who's on the phone?
17:01:51 <Zakim> WAI_Indie()1:00PM has not yet started, janina
17:01:52 <Zakim> On IRC I see shepazu, jcraig, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, vincent-gros, smaug_, MichaelC
17:02:01 <MichaelC> zakim, this is indie
17:02:01 <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; that matches WAI_Indie()1:00PM
17:02:07 <Zakim> +Cooper
17:02:13 <shepazu> Zakim, code?
17:02:13 <Zakim> +??P0
17:02:15 <Zakim> the conference code is 46343 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), shepazu
17:02:41 <Zakim> +??P9
17:03:00 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P8 is Janina
17:03:00 <Zakim> +Janina; got it
17:03:02 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
17:03:10 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P9 is Andy_Heath
17:03:10 <Zakim> +Andy_Heath; got it
17:03:33 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P0 is Vincent_Gros
17:03:33 <Zakim> +Vincent_Gros; got it
17:03:35 <Zakim> +James_Craig
17:04:09 <andy> andy has joined #indie-ui
17:04:22 <MichaelC> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-indie-ui/2012Jun/0015.html
17:04:26 <clown> clown has joined #indie-ui
17:05:03 <jcraig> Zakim, who is here?
17:05:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see Janina, Cooper, Vincent_Gros, Andy_Heath, Doug_Schepers, James_Craig
17:05:06 <Zakim> On IRC I see clown, andy, shepazu, jcraig, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, vincent-gros, smaug_, MichaelC
17:05:09 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
17:05:28 <clown> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:05:28 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
17:05:37 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:05:37 <Zakim> ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:05:40 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Andy_Heath
17:05:40 <jcraig> scribe: jcraig
17:06:15 <Zakim> +Art_Barstow
17:06:27 <abarsto> abarsto has joined #indie-ui
17:07:00 <Zakim> +Rich
17:07:12 <ArtB> Present+ Art_Barstow
17:07:37 <richardschwerdtfe> richardschwerdtfe has joined #indie-ui
17:07:41 <jcraig> agenda: Source Code Repository Update
17:07:52 <jcraig> topic: Source Code Repository Update
17:08:36 <jcraig> mc: no progress from last week. 
17:09:01 <jcraig> jc: needed to send proposal regarding branches or directories per version
17:09:02 <clown> last week's minute: http://www.w3.org/2012/06/13-indie-ui-minutes.html
17:09:27 <jcraig> topic: Task Force Work Statement http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/IUITF
17:10:05 <jcraig> js: Are we done? Any more discussion needed?
17:10:29 <jcraig> js: Otherwise, close discussion through email.
17:11:05 <shepazu> zakim, who's noisy?
17:11:16 <Zakim> shepazu, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Janina (81%), Andy_Heath (30%), James_Craig (23%), Art_Barstow (4%)
17:11:39 <jcraig> jc: changes were mainly about editors sending regrets
17:11:47 <Zakim> -Art_Barstow
17:11:48 <jcraig> topic: Recruiting Update
17:12:21 <shepazu> q+
17:12:22 <jcraig> js: some participants may have schedule conflict. aus, asia
17:12:24 <Zakim> +Art_Barstow
17:12:49 <jcraig> js: any more updates from recruiting? 
17:12:54 <jcraig> ack d
17:13:01 <clown> q+ to update on recruiting.
17:13:37 <jcraig> ab: forwarded to group: rick meyers from google and sang moon(?) from Opera.
17:14:00 <jcraig> ab: also one person from mozilla via IRC has expressed interest
17:14:24 <ArtB> s/rick meyers/Rick Byers/
17:14:39 <janina> q?
17:15:07 <jcraig> ds: any idea of number of people in EU?
17:15:28 <jcraig> ah: I'm in EU.
17:15:57 <jcraig> vg: I'm in France
17:16:12 <jcraig> ds: I suggest a poll once we get more participants.
17:17:24 <shepazu> zakim, who's noisy?
17:17:26 <jcraig> ds: already have reps from apple, google, nokia, mozilla, opera, etc. 
17:17:34 <Zakim> shepazu, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Doug_Schepers (29%), Janina (19%), Andy_Heath (19%), Joseph_Scheuhammer (60%)
17:18:03 <shepazu> zakim, who's noisy?
17:18:15 <Zakim> shepazu, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Andy_Heath (70%)
17:18:22 <shepazu> zakim, mute andy 
17:18:23 <Zakim> Andy_Heath should now be muted
17:18:34 <clown> http://scottgonzalez.com/
17:18:38 <jcraig> clown: discussing with Joanie last week, and thought to invite too debs. I heard scott gonzalez (jQuery dev) was interested.
17:19:34 <jcraig> ds: Scott is in the same area as I am. Great idea to get him involved.
17:20:18 <jcraig> topic: Need to identify tests editor
17:21:02 <jcraig> js: we have james craig as the spec editor; still need a tests editor.
17:21:21 <jcraig> js: need at least by mid-stream, but the sooner the better.
17:21:34 <jcraig> ds: expectations for test driver:
17:21:58 <janina> q?
17:22:04 <janina> ack d
17:22:10 <janina> ack s
17:22:21 <jcraig> ds: make sure there are clear testable assertions in spec, write tests themselves, drive conversation around testing, pester for deliverables, etc.
17:22:22 <clown> ack me
17:22:22 <Zakim> Joseph_Scheuhammer, you wanted to update on recruiting.
17:23:36 <jcraig> ds: make sure they don't give false positives or negatives, and incorporates any unsolicited tests submitted by group members or outside contributors, needs coordination skills
17:24:08 <jcraig> js: some of that is the wider group responsibility, but I agree that one should be directly responsible
17:24:25 <janina> ack j
17:24:41 <jcraig> topic: Use Cases Wiki Update
17:25:01 <jcraig> js: thanks Doug (Art?) for getting the wiki started
17:25:40 <jcraig> rs: Does the person (Byers) from Google have access to the wiki?
17:26:00 <jcraig> rs: needs a W3C login.
17:26:13 <jcraig> mc: he is a member so he has access.
17:26:51 <jcraig> ab: I'll make sure Rick knows to add his own cases to the wiki.
17:26:58 <ArtB> ACTION: barstow make sure Rick Byers knows we want him to directly add his UCs to the UC wiki
17:27:05 <jcraig> topic: Events Module & Use Cases from Apple -- James Craig
17:27:06 <clown> scribenick:  clown
17:27:33 <clown> js:  gives conch to jcraig
17:27:57 <clown> JC:  been about two years since original proposal.
17:28:03 <jcraig> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2010JulSep/att-0106/UserInterfaceIndependence.html
17:28:43 <clown> JC:  started thinking about this with respect to ARIA
17:28:57 <clown> JC:  partly due to the emphasis on key presses
17:29:17 <clown> JC: as outlined in the DHTML Style Guide.
17:29:38 <clown> JC:  for key strokes for interacting with DHTML user interfaces
17:29:55 <clown> JC:  doesn't scale well for a number of reasons
17:30:19 <clown> JC:  different set of keystrokes compared to, say, what a screen reader user is used to.
17:30:36 <clown> JC: doesn't work for cases where there is no keyboard, such as a touch screen.
17:30:54 <clown> JC:  don't want to put this on the author to put this information/control in.
17:31:26 <clown> JC: we thought that the way to do this is with DOM mutation events, but those are not consistently implemented in browsers.
17:32:01 <clown> JC: so, come up with events that correspond to user actions, and implement those.
17:32:15 <clown> JC: and these should be more performant than mutation events.
17:32:54 <clown> RS:  when and where are these events directed at specific objects.
17:33:02 <clown> RS:  with a keyboard, you have focus.
17:33:22 <clown> RS:  how do we direct the input at the relevant UI object?
17:33:54 <clown> JC:  if there are multiple scroll views on the page, which one gets the scroll event?
17:34:31 <clown> JC:  that's up to the UA to figure out.  For example, VoiceOver has an idea of where the user is directing their attention.
17:34:58 <clown> JC: if on a scroll view, then sent there, and it bubbles up.
17:35:07 <clown> JC:  if no known focus, send the event to the body.
17:35:33 <clown> RS:  on a touch device, can we assume that an element can have focus?
17:36:13 <clown> JC: the ability to determine the event and its target is the responsibiltiy of the OS and the UA.
17:36:44 <clown> RS:  for the purpose of spec'ing these the events, can we leave the determination of the point-of-regard is left up to the platform.
17:37:05 <clown> JC:  the POR can be determined at the time of regard.
17:37:23 <clown> aside 'POR' = 'point of regard'
17:37:32 <shepazu> q+
17:37:50 <clown> JC: the heuristics will be in the UA.
17:38:02 <Cathy> Cathy has joined #indie-ui
17:38:09 <clown> JC:  in voice command, give a name to apply the event to.
17:38:21 <jcraig> ack d
17:38:37 <clown> DS: is there a substantive different between the focus or POR?
17:38:53 <clown> RS: the POR is the location in the doc where you are operating.
17:38:54 <jcraig> s/POR/point of regard (POR)/
17:39:41 <clown> RS:  there is another level of granularity.
17:39:58 <clown> RS:  focus is on the contariner and focus is within that.
17:40:27 <clown> s/and focus is within that/and POR is within that/
17:40:46 <clown> DS:  james has other examples.
17:40:51 <clown> DS: ?
17:41:50 <clown> RS:  VoiceOver (the screen reader for iOS and OSX) has a way of setting the POR, or screen reader focus.
17:42:08 <clown> JC:  and the keyboard focus might be differnt from the screen reader focus (POR).
17:42:23 <Zakim> +??P2
17:42:26 <clown> JC:  the POR can move indepedently of the keyboard focus.
17:42:27 <Cathy> zakim, ??P2 is me
17:42:27 <Zakim> +Cathy; got it
17:42:36 <clown> JC:  but usually, they are kept in sync.
17:42:43 <Cathy> Present+ Cathy_Chan
17:43:46 <clown> DS:  I reviewed some document that all sorts of focus defined.
17:44:00 <clown> DS:  do they all come down to these two?  POR and keyboard focus?
17:44:06 <clown> RS:  yes, I think so.
17:44:22 <clown> DS:  we should try to get this concept out there.
17:44:30 <clown> JS:  should we start a glossary?
17:44:51 <jcraig> q+ to mention glossary def versus explanation discussion
17:44:57 <clown> q+ to say that the spec should define these
17:45:23 <clown> DS:  there were concepts and I found it confusing.
17:45:36 <clown> DS:  I'm going to try and explain these in the wiki, as a first stab.
17:45:58 <clown> DS:  we should give a normative definition of these concepts.
17:46:07 <jcraig> ack d
17:46:23 <clown> JS:  we owe the term to the aaron leventhal.
17:46:24 <jcraig> ack me
17:46:24 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to mention glossary def versus explanation discussion
17:46:29 <MichaelC> ack s
17:46:53 <clown> JC: I believe that this should be explained into a spec, whether normative or informative.
17:47:03 <janina> q?
17:47:11 <jcraig> ack j
17:47:11 <Zakim> Joseph_Scheuhammer, you wanted to say that the spec should define these
17:47:20 <janina> q+
17:47:23 <shepazu> zakim, who's noisy?
17:47:34 <Zakim> shepazu, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: James_Craig (15%), Joseph_Scheuhammer (64%)
17:48:04 <jcraig> clown: if these events are in the spec, the terms will be there. for example "DOM focus" (or another term like Point of Regard) should be defined in the spec.
17:48:30 <jcraig> ds: This may be a presentation issue and might benefit from coordination with CSS WG
17:48:35 <clown> DS:  this might benefit from a coordination with CSS group.
17:49:15 <clown> DS:  the point of the regard is a presentation thing, not something in the DOM.
17:49:41 <jcraig> ds: SVG has concept like this: viewport and viewbox
17:50:15 <jcraig> ds: clarifying "point of regard" is not same as "point of focus" which is like activeElement
17:50:18 <jcraig> q?
17:50:31 <shepazu> s/concept like this/concept related to this/
17:50:34 <clown> s/which is like activeElement/which is the activeElement/
17:50:59 <shepazu> agenda+ Format of Use Cases
17:51:14 <clown> JS:  this helps the IDL and whoever writes theses specs, and this will help the developers to handle things correctly.
17:51:32 <janina> q?
17:51:35 <janina> ack j
17:52:05 <clown> JC:  most modern web apps register all events on the body to detect all the targets without having to add/remove from specific elements.
17:52:23 <clown> DS:  can events be fired on the POR?
17:52:43 <clown> JC:  yes, because in some cases the author may not want to register the event on the body.
17:52:52 <clown> JC:  and example is a small widget like a button.
17:53:09 <clown> JC: but in large webapps that wouldn't be the best approach.
17:53:43 <clown> DS:  there are seemingly implications for the DOM.  And, it's not just presentational.
17:53:44 <ArtB> q+ 
17:53:59 <clown> JS:  it's a new type of DOM event.
17:54:16 <clown> s/JS:  it's a new type of DOM event./JC:  it's a new type of DOM event./
17:54:29 <clown> DS:  not just a new type of event, but a new type of event flow.
17:54:47 <clown> DS:  not saying it's bad, just something to consider.
17:54:49 <jcraig> ack ArtB
17:55:12 <clown> AB:  can you say anything the implementnation status of that draft?
17:55:42 <clown> JC:  I can't say anything about that — Apple doesn't say anything about things that are not shipping.
17:56:04 <clown> JC: there was a commitment to webkit, but was removed since there was no formal W3C spec.
17:56:31 <clown> AB:  is anybody expecting another group to make a similar proposal as James'?
17:57:04 <clown> RS:  I am working on use cases; the events that James has — I don't have any issue.
17:57:12 <clown> RS:  we can build off of the current proposal.
17:57:48 <ArtB> q-
17:58:01 <clown> JS:  any hot questions for James?
17:58:20 <clown> DS:  looking at Rich's use cases, but those are not use cases.
17:58:30 <clown> DS:  you are putting requirements where the use cases are.
17:58:39 <clown> DS:  we can talk off line.
17:58:58 <jcraig> q+ to remind group members to read the original proposal if they haven't already. It's short. I promise. ;-) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2010JulSep/att-0106/UserInterfaceIndependence.html
17:59:44 <clown> DS:  I will write up a more explicit how-to for writing use cases.
17:59:57 <clown> JS:  charter calls for the telecons every other week.
18:00:08 <clown> JS:  two weeks today is a major US holiday.
18:00:19 <clown> JS:  meet next week?  or wait 4 weeks?
18:00:37 <clown> JS:  we can't afford to wait 4 weeks.
18:00:49 <clown> JC:  propose we do the 3 week option.
18:01:00 <clown> JS:  so Jul 11
18:01:11 <clown> JS;  everyone okay with that.
18:01:33 <clown> DS:  we can work on use cases.
18:01:43 <clown> JC:  and on repository.
18:02:17 <clown> JC:  please everyone read at least the first section of the proposal — it's short.
18:02:37 <clown> JC:  the spec will be based on this proposal.  If you have major comments, I'd like to hear them asap.
18:02:55 <clown> JS:  yes, let's get the concerns and issues out.
18:03:14 <clown> JS: volunteers for scribe for next list.
18:03:21 <clown> DS:  let's take that up on the email list.
18:03:38 <Zakim> -James_Craig
18:03:47 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
18:03:47 <clown> JS:  call the meeting to adjourn.
18:03:50 <Zakim> -Cooper
18:03:51 <Zakim> -Andy_Heath
18:03:51 <Zakim> -Cathy
18:03:52 <Zakim> -Art_Barstow
18:03:58 <clown> zakim, please part
18:03:58 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Cooper, Janina, Doug_Schepers, Andy_Heath, Vincent_Gros, James_Craig, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Art_Barstow, Rich, Cathy
18:03:58 <Zakim> Zakim has left #indie-ui
18:04:10 <clown> RRSAgent:  make minutes.
18:04:10 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes.', clown.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:04:18 <clown> RRSAgent:  make minutes
18:04:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/20-indie-ui-minutes.html clown
18:05:03 <clown> RRSAgent, make log public
18:06:44 <janina> zakim, who's here?
18:10:02 <jcraig> jcraig has left #indie-ui
18:48:06 <ArtB> Note to Self: make sure trackbot is running before the start of the next meeting
18:49:38 <ArtB> ArtB has changed the topic to: IndieUI WG and Task Force; next call is July 11 (ArtB)
19:02:42 <trackbot> trackbot has joined #indie-ui
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19:44:07 <ArtB> trackbot, associate this channel with indieui
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19:44:45 <ArtB> issue-1?
19:44:45 <trackbot> ISSUE-1 does not exist
19:44:52 <ArtB> action-1?
19:44:52 <trackbot> ACTION-1 does not exist
19:46:08 <ArtB> ACTION: barstow make sure Rick Byers knows we want him to directly add his UCs to the UC wiki http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/wiki/Use_Cases_and_Requirements
19:46:08 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1 - Make sure Rick Byers knows we want him to directly add his UCs to the UC wiki http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/wiki/Use_Cases_and_Requirements [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-06-27].
19:46:17 <ArtB> action-1?
19:46:17 <trackbot> ACTION-1 -- Arthur Barstow to make sure Rick Byers knows we want him to directly add his UCs to the UC wiki http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/wiki/Use_Cases_and_Requirements -- due 2012-06-27 -- OPEN
19:46:17 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/track/actions/1
19:46:29 <ArtB> action-2?
19:46:29 <trackbot> ACTION-2 does not exist
20:41:51 <clown> clown has left #indie-ui